Dave2D has NAILED the new iPadPro

[tromboneaholic]

And as I’ve stated, I personally don’t see any valid concerns here, including the ones you’ve raised. Mouse support would in no way negatively affect the iPad, iOS, or users. It would be completely optional to use.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. And when Apple introduces mouse support, we’ll resurrect this thread and have a party.

But you keep ignoring any valid point, not even discussing it. It's as if you don't understand the difference between designing a UI for Touch versus Mouse, and just don't see the words on your screen every time the differences are pointed out.

For example, this part of my reply that you ignored:

 

[seadragon]

But you keep ignoring any valid point, not even discussing it. It's as if you don't understand the difference between designing a UI for Touch versus Mouse, and just don't see the words on your screen every time the differences are pointed out.

For example, this part of my reply that you ignored:
View attachment 804984

I did read your post. I don’t see an issue as I don’t see how a mouse would complicate anything. If an app can work with the Pencil, it would also work with a mouse. And as I stated previously, I don’t see this is not a software problem. It’s a matter of ergonomics when using the iPad is docked in the Smart Keyboard. That’s where I would like a mouse to interact with the screen so that I don’t have to pick up a pencil or raise my hand off of the desk to touch the screen.

I also don’t think that the App Store would be any better or worse than it is now with the Pencil in the mix. Also, folks have been successfully using a mouse with jail broken iPads.

What specific part of the iOS user experience would be hindered by a mouse?

 

[tromboneaholic]

I did read your post. I don’t see an issue as I don’t see how a mouse would complicate anything. If an app can work with the Pencil, it would also work with a mouse.

What specific part of the iOS user experience would be hindered by a mouse?

For which iPad app do you need a mouse?

 

[booksbooks]

No.

I wasn’t part of any argument that Apple won’t create a stylus. I used a stylus with my original iPad for note taking and drawing. Apple saw those tasks as a compelling need and created a better class of stylus, thus the Apple Pencil. That was a new invention based on an existing technology from third parties.

Apple has been selling mice for, what, 40 years now? Don’t you pro-Mickey Mouse people honestly believe that if Apple saw a compelling need to add mouse support to an iPad they would’ve done so already? A stylus is a touch-input device, but a mouse isn’t. If a mouse is so necessary for input on iOS, then conversely why wouldn’t Apple add Apple Pencil support to macOS?

The real “lack of vision” is from those of you who, as a previous poster put it, advocate “adding wings to a lawnmower.”

Exactly. The entire product itself... iOS + tablet form factor + multi-touch where the design pattern is for meaty fingers running a mobile software OS is such that adding a trackpad/mouse is like creating a lawnmower with wings.

It will not happen. Apple will need to fundamentally create and launch a totally reenginerred and redesigned operating system to have both kinds of input in the same device.

Microsoft has acheieved this with Windows 10 and products like the Surface Studio. They try in mobile with their Surface Pro laptop with removable tablet screen and Surface Pro tablet. It’s still very awkward on mobile. The Surface Pro is still a terrible laptop and not so great tablet...

A tablet is a tablet. What has made Apple successful in a failed device category is to understand that. The iPad is a thin, clean slate, unlike other tablets that are too thick with things like USB ports, kickstands, thick bezels, etc. It’s a device category designed to hold and for finger input.

Trying to make it into a laptop or desktop is to create a lawnmower with wings.

 

[rowspaxe]

So because other people may have been wrong about a completely different issue in the past, anyone who ever disagrees with you in the future is wrong.

No, it means they could be wrong

 

[booksbooks]

For which iPad app do you need a mouse?

And then let’s go down this road. Imagine having a mouse with Pages or Keynote on the iPad. Man, would that be frustrating. There is no toolbar at all. You have to select one of the tool options to reveal other menus over and over.

Or imagine a mouse with the Camera App.

If you want to understand the many usability issues, read a bit on FITTS principle and hit targets on a logarithmic curve.

 

[RudySnow]

I did read your post. I don’t see an issue as I don’t see how a mouse would complicate anything. If an app can work with the Pencil, it would also work with a mouse. And as I stated previously, I don’t see this is not a software problem. It’s a matter of ergonomics when using the iPad is docked in the Smart Keyboard. That’s where I would like a mouse to interact with the screen so that I don’t have to pick up a pencil or raise my hand off of the desk to touch the screen.

I also don’t think that the App Store would be any better or worse than it is now with the Pencil in the mix. Also, folks have been successfully using a mouse with jail broken iPads.

What specific part of the iOS user experience would be hindered by a mouse?

I don’t find any compelling points that you have ever made as to why an iPad should have mouse support. ZERO. You’re just trolling at this point, telling people how wrong they are and offering no concrete, real-world examples as to why a mouse deserves a place in iOS. Honestly, if you say you just have to agree to disagree, why do you keep coming back and disagreeing? I can’t wait for WWDC19 when Apple doesn’t introduce mouse support so I don’t have to bring chips and salsa to your fiesta.

 

[rowspaxe]

It will not happen. Apple will need to fundamentally create and launch a totally reenginerred and redesigned operating system to have both kinds of input in the same device.

why do they need to change anything? Just add a pointer function to facilitate mouse and trackpad. Done. People already have this with jail breaking. Tel me specifically how adding
pointer support diminishes your ipad experience.

Microsoft has achieved this with Windows 10 and products like the Surface Studio. They try in mobile with their Surface Pro laptop with removable tablet screen and Surface Pro tablet. It’s still very awkward on mobile.

MS never had the app or media ecosystem. Windows 10 was fine for desktop and touch.
Itunes, not ios, gave apple the win in the tablet market

A tablet is a tablet. What has made Apple successful in a failed device category is to understand that. The iPad is a thin, clean slate, unlike other tablets that are too thick with things like USB ports, kickstands, thick bezels, etc. It’s a device category designed to hold and for finger input.

Was the 2017 ipad 12.9" a tablet? Its not "easy to hold". The ipad pro is all 2 mm thicker than
the Surface pro

 

[seadragon]

For which iPad app do you need a mouse?

Well, it’s not a need, it’s a wish. I wish the iPad would support a mouse.

Which apps? I’d use a mouse for all of them when the iPad is docked in the Smart Keyboard instead of reaching for the screen. Selecting text in Pages or working with cells in Numbers would be especially useful with a mouse. Using Lightroom to process photos when docked could also benefit from a mouse. Even browsing the net in Safari. Basically anything when using the iPad docked. Then, when handheld or on my lap, I’d use my fingers or pencil. That’s how I would use it. It’s not about it becoming a laptop for me, it’s about ergonomics when docked and using a physical keyboard.

I fully acknowledge that not everyone would see the value of using a mouse. Same thing as the pencil. But just like the pencil, I would like the option to use one.

 

[RudySnow]

why do they need to change anything? Just add a pointer function to facilitate mouse and trackpad. Done. People already have this with jail breaking

Duh! It’s THAT EASY! You UI developers don’t know what you’re doing. You’re... coding it wrong!

 

[rowspaxe]

I don’t find any compelling points that you have ever made as to why an iPad should have mouse support. ZERO.

Mouse support clearly better for word processing, spread sheets, video editing and 3d software. Touch ui was fine for consumption, but the ipad is becoming a productivity device.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[doublepost=1542560278][/doublepost]

Duh! It’s THAT EASY! You UI developers don’t know what you’re doing. You’re... coding it wrong!

It is that easy. The decision not to support a mouse is a marketing decision. Tell me how adding pointer support changes the ios ui?

 

[tromboneaholic]

why do they need to change anything? Just add a pointer function to facilitate mouse and trackpad. Done. People already have this with jail breaking.

Just because ackward kludges exist, doesn’t prove they are a good idea.

iOS is primarily gesture driven, and not only are those gestures more intuitive and easy on the screen, some of them are impossible to perform using a standard mouse.

Then you have the issue of the compromises that have to be made when designing a UI for Touch and Mouse.

 

[RudySnow]

Mouse support clearly better for word processing, spread sheets, video editing and 3d software.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[doublepost=1542560278][/doublepost]
It is that easy. The decision not to support a mouse is a marketing decision. Tell me how adding pointer support changes the ios ui?

The “I’m Right and You’re Wrong” argument hasn’t worked for me since kindergarten. It’s not working for you either.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[richpjr]

It’s a matter of ergonomics when using the iPad is docked in the Smart Keyboard. That’s where I would like a mouse to interact with the screen so that I don’t have to pick up a pencil or raise my hand off of the desk to touch the screen.

Exactly.

 

[ericwn]

Exactly. The entire product itself... iOS + tablet form factor + multi-touch where the design pattern is for meaty fingers running a mobile software OS is such that adding a trackpad/mouse is like creating a lawnmower with wings.

It will not happen. Apple will need to fundamentally create and launch a totally reenginerred and redesigned operating system to have both kinds of input in the same device.

Microsoft has acheieved this with Windows 10 and products like the Surface Studio. They try in mobile with their Surface Pro laptop with removable tablet screen and Surface Pro tablet. It’s still very awkward on mobile. The Surface Pro is still a terrible laptop and not so great tablet...

A tablet is a tablet. What has made Apple successful in a failed device category is to understand that. The iPad is a thin, clean slate, unlike other tablets that are too thick with things like USB ports, kickstands, thick bezels, etc. It’s a device category designed to hold and for finger input.

Trying to make it into a laptop or desktop is to create a lawnmower with wings.

I am not convinced that MS is a good example for any product execution.
Just because someone else fails to increase the tablet experience doesn’t mean the rest of the industry, especially those claiming to innovate, should stop their efforts.

 

[ericwn]

Mouse support clearly better for word processing, spread sheets, video editing and 3d software. Touch ui was fine for consumption, but the ipad is becoming a productivity device.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[doublepost=1542560278][/doublepost]
It is that easy. The decision not to support a mouse is a marketing decision. Tell me how adding pointer support changes the ios ui?

Exactly. Basic Office work already benefits from mouse input. Most who do anything significant in those apps on an iPad will agree.

 

[seadragon]

There have been plenty of arguments against adding a mouse, in this thread and elsewhere that are perfectly logical and proper for the purpose of iOS. If you can’t see that, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

I don’t find any compelling points that you have ever made as to why an iPad should have mouse support. ZERO. You’re just trolling at this point, telling people how wrong they are and offering no concrete, real-world examples as to why a mouse deserves a place in iOS. Honestly, if you say you just have to agree to disagree, why do you keep coming back and disagreeing? I can’t wait for WWDC19 when Apple doesn’t introduce mouse support so I don’t have to bring chips and salsa to your fiesta.

Oh, you mean exactly like you did with another forum member? (see post 317) Everything you said to me could apply to you as well, except for the trolling bit because nobody (including you) is a troll here IMO. You should think twice before accusing someone of being one. I don't see anyone being told they are "wrong" either. Just passionate viewpoints being made.

 

[rowspaxe]

The “I’m Right and You’re Wrong” argument hasn’t worked for me since kindergarten. It’s not working for you either.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I am not saying that I am right: I am asking where am i wrong:
1) adding mouse support would not necessitate changes to ios
2) adding mouse support would not change your ipad experience
Your response is that you've dealt with it earlier in the thread, but i archived all your posts in post in this thread in post #335 to show you never addressed these issues.
[doublepost=1542566349][/doublepost]

The Procreate app has many touch targets which are too small to easily use with a finger, because they just assume that users are using the more precise Apple Pencil. So, while it technically works without the Pencil, it's a rough experience if you don't have one.
With Procreate it's not really a problem because the Venn diagram of people who want to use Procreate and people who have an Apple Pencil is basically a solid circle. Is that true for a spreadsheet? Not at all.

Not sure i agree with procreate example, but at least your making an argument. Suppose apple allows me to release a complicated spread sheet or 3d app that requires mouse support. How is the finger user harmed? There are still simpler less able apps that support finger use. Do you see apps generally devolving to support only mouse sized targets?

You raised the analogous case of the pencil. Yet with the introduction of the pencil there has
been no discernable trend to 'pen only' uis
[doublepost=1542566833][/doublepost]Question for tromboneaholic: how would feel about keyboard shortcuts for art apps?
I would love this is Sketchbook and Procreate.

 

[fm_carv]

Lew is going all-in with the iPad for 2 weeks

 

[tromboneaholic]

Question for tromboneaholic: how would feel about keyboard shortcuts for art apps?
I would love this is Sketchbook and Procreate.

I honestly don't see why keyboard shortcuts would be a bad idea as long as it works like it does on macOS (where it's not the only way). I'm guessing shortcuts might be better on some apps over others.
[doublepost=1542569653][/doublepost]

I don't see anyone being told they are "wrong" either. Just passionate viewpoints being made.

I imagine there is some of this debate going on within Apple itself, but the people on the right teams get a chance to show how well their ideas work (or don't).

I've got to imagine they are being careful about adding complexity to not overwhelm normal users while adding more features for power users. I'm personally looking forward to the developer's conference this summer to see what they do with iOS on the iPad.

 

[zhenya]

iOS is primarily gesture driven, and not only are those gestures more intuitive and easy on the screen, some of them are impossible to perform using a standard mouse.

Which ones? Be specific.

 

[Rck1984]

Brydge shared a picture of something many people would love: a clip-on iPad Pro keyboard with a trackpad. Sadly, Brydge’s concept device just isn’t possible because iOS doesn’t support external pointing devices.

https://www.cultofmac.com/591266/brydge-taunts-us-with-ipad-pro-keyboard-we-cant-have/

Interesting article, I'd personally love optional trackpad/mouse support.

 

[PirateP]

Don’t need or want a mouse.

 

[rowspaxe]

View attachment 805041

Brydge shared a picture of something many people would love: a clip-on iPad Pro keyboard with a trackpad. Sadly, Brydge’s concept device just isn’t possible because iOS doesn’t support external pointing devices.
https://www.cultofmac.com/591266/brydge-taunts-us-with-ipad-pro-keyboard-we-cant-have/

Although many here hate surface, windows, ect, MS clearly nailed it with the keyboard cover
design and kickstand. Also, both are so iconic Apple cannot copy them. For now we are left
with the smart keyboard origami fabric souffle, but Apple may eventually do a redesign that
surprises
[doublepost=1542575702][/doublepost]

Don’t need or want a mouse.

I don't need or want a keyboard or monitor support--strictly a sketcher here. But these
add on functions do not change my ipad experience: how would mouse support change yours?

 

[Knowimagination]

I am not saying that I am right: I am asking where am i wrong:
1) adding mouse support would not necessitate changes to ios
2) adding mouse support would not change your ipad experience
Your response is that you've dealt with it earlier in the thread, but i archived all your posts in post in this thread in post #335 to show you never addressed these issues.

Number 1 just seems so obviously untrue to me and this is why I don’t understand why people seem to think that nothing will change.

Any app developer worth anything is going to design an app around the available methods. Currently direct input via finger or pencil are the only options that need to be designed for and they require no differentiation.

As soon as all developers are told that people using their apps now have an additional input method that is completely different than the other two they now have to design apps that will work well for both methods which as many of us have pointed out is no good for either user. The two input methods are too different to be able to continue to enjoy apps that continue to innovate direct touch input and they will never be able to be as efficient as apps developed exclusively for mouse input.

I am a huge apple fan but I can tell you right now if apple decideds in the future to add mouse support for iOS that I will continue to say they are wrong and I will consider it the start of the death of the iPad line.