Dave2D has NAILED the new iPadPro

[AlexJoda]

No app on your iPhone was designed to be used with a mouse.

The fact that a mouse can work on a touch os is not the point. The point is apps won’t continue to be developed solely for touch and the user experience for touch users will suffer because of it.
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Is seems to me that at the moment the iPad suffers much more from not having the option to use a pointing device in some cases were a touch input limits the productive usage. I dont think it is necessary to make a religion out of the touch input. They already added the keyboard which is spoiling the idea of the touch input at least as much as a mouse or trackpad. Also a keyboard without pointing device makes no sense to me....

 

[Knowimagination]

I don't understand this destinction, I don't see where you make this case. Oops, Brammy does!

Fine. Add it to the api: no new terratory here. Devs can support it or not, like the pencil tap.
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I am totally pro troll so I applaud your efforts to evade salient issues.

The distinction is between direct vs indirect input. You cannot develop an app for only one of those methods if they are both supported and if you have to develop with both in mind compromises have to be made. I don’t want the device I purchased to have its focus split I want developers finding ways to improve the touch interface not making compromises.
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Is seems to me that at the moment the iPad suffers much more from not having the option to use a pointing device in some cases were a touch input limits the productive usage. I dont think it is necessary to make a religion out of the touch input. They already added the keyboard which is spoiling the idea of the touch input at least as much as a mouse or trackpad. Also a keyboard without pointing device makes no sense to me....

Physical keyboard and mouse trackpad aren’t even in the same ballpark. A keyboard doesn’t change anything about the devices touch input the on screen keyboard and a hardware keyboard work exactly the same.

My finger or the pencil and a mouse aren’t even remotely close to the same thing.

 

[richpjr]

I don’t want the device I purchased to have its focus split I want developers finding ways to improve the touch interface not making compromises.

I just want a mouse when I am in an application and using a keyboard. No changes to anything else in the entire UI needed.

 

[Knowimagination]

I just want a mouse when I am in an application and using a keyboard. No changes to anything else in the entire UI needed.

That’s not how UI works. If it is supported in certain apps the entire thing has to have support for consistency.

 

[richpjr]

That’s not how UI works. If it is supported in certain apps the entire thing has to have support for consistency.

I know how a UI works. I was merely expressing the thought that the only time I would use a mouse is when using a keyboard, usually while editing a document. Hell, give me the cursor movement like we already have in the virtual keyboard with two fingers on the space bar and the iPad is suddenly much more productive for me.

 

[booksbooks]

LOL. Right on, right on. I wonder why these mouse fanboys aren’t screaming for mouse support in CarPlayOS and tvOS. They’re based on OSX, too!

Hey, wait a minute... tvOS can already link to a Bluetooth keyboard, right? Wouldn’t adding a mouse just be a simple add since the remote already controls a cursor?

I WANT MOUSE SUPPORT ON MY APPLE TV! QUIT LAUGHING AT ME! YOU’RE ALL WRONG!!!

ROFL!

 

[jeremiah256]

LOL. Right on, right on. I wonder why these mouse fanboys aren’t screaming for mouse support in CarPlayOS and tvOS. They’re based on OSX, too!

Hey, wait a minute... tvOS can already link to a Bluetooth keyboard, right? Wouldn’t adding a mouse just be a simple add since the remote already controls a cursor?

I WANT MOUSE SUPPORT ON MY APPLE TV! QUIT LAUGHING AT ME! YOU’RE ALL WRONG!!!

In three or so years from now, when the Apple TV has the Bionic A15X chip, professional apps, and can act as a Mac Mini, you're damn right I'll want mouse support. And you will be free to remain a cheerleader for the past and device purity.

 

[richpjr]

In three or so years from now, when the Apple TV has the Bionic A15X chip, professional apps, and can act as a Mac Mini, you're damn right I'll want mouse support. And you will be free to remain a cheerleader for the past and device purity.

It will be magical.

 

[RudySnow]

In three or so years from now, when the Apple TV has the Bionic A15X chip, professional apps, and can act as a Mac Mini, you're damn right I'll want mouse support. And you will be free to remain a cheerleader for the past and device purity.

Can I wish for Apple Pencil support on my TV? It’s soooo inconvenient having to sit down on the couch and use a remote... I just want to be able to get up and stand as closely to the TV as possible to load the Playboy channel. Oh, and edit spreadsheets.

 

[jeremiah256]

Can I wish for Apple Pencil support on my TV? It’s soooo inconvenient having to sit down on the couch and use a remote... I just want to be able to get up and stand as closely to the TV as possible to load the Playboy channel. Oh, and edit spreadsheets.

We both know you're comparing Apples and oranges, don't we?

When, like mouse support for the iPad Pro, you have customers, bloggers, technologists, and tech sites supporting your use case for Pencil support on an Apple TV, then yes. I'm sure we'd be willing to hear how it would create a better user experience. But, until then...

 

[RudySnow]

We both know you're comparing Apples and oranges, don't we?

When, like mouse support for the iPad Pro, you have customers, bloggers, technologists, and tech sites supporting your use case for Pencil support on an Apple TV, then yes. I'm sure we'd be willing to hear how it would create a better user experience. But, until then...

Why do I need to validation of others to explain my wants and needs, and then demand Apple implements Apple Pencil support to be more useful, for me? I’m a customer, I consider MacRumors to be a blog, I’m a technologist, and I know MR is a tech site. My wants aren’t apples and oranges... if tvOS can support a cursor, it can support a mouse.

 

[jeremiah256]

For us 'Mouseketeers', I thought I'd post an article I remembered reading that might be of interest, about Phil Schiller and his 'Grand Unified Theory'.

 

[RudySnow]

.

 

[AlexJoda]

The distinction is between direct vs indirect input. You cannot develop an app for only one of those methods if they are both supported and if you have to develop with both in mind compromises have to be made. I don’t want the device I purchased to have its focus split I want developers finding ways to improve the touch interface not making compromises.
[doublepost=1542587438][/doublepost]
Physical keyboard and mouse trackpad aren’t even in the same ballpark. A keyboard doesn’t change anything about the devices touch input the on screen keyboard and a hardware keyboard work exactly the same.

My finger or the pencil and a mouse aren’t even remotely close to the same thing.

As you said yourself it’s about direct vs indirect input. An external physical keyboard is also an indirect input and it forces me to switch between direct and indirect input all the time when I am using the touch display.

In that sense a keyboard has much more in common with a mouse than with a touch input. Direct input is a big limitation for many productive apps. These apps need mouse or trackpad support, not all the rest....

 

[RudySnow]

For us 'Mouseketeers', I thought I'd post an article I remembered reading that might be of interest, about Phil Schiller and his 'Grand Unified Theory'.

From Andrew Orr at The Mac Observer:

Ben Bajarin argues that the Apple Pencil 2 is the iPad Pro’s mouse, especially with the new gesture support.

Apple’s new gestures clearly support this theory. Apple may be easing people into this new functionality but the idea of a multi-touch function on the Apple Pencil seems like a logical path forward. At the moment, you can customize the double tap gestures on Apple Pencil to switch between the two tools you use the most.
​

I agree with Mr. Bajarin; when you double-tap on the Apple Pencil 2, think of it as a right-click. The iPad Pro doesn’t need a trackpad or mouse, and I personally hope Apple won’t add them. Those are legacy tools.​

This entire article is based on the premise that an iPad can’t replace a laptop because an iPad doesn’t have mouse support. A lot of the Mouseketeer oversee that, which is precisely why this thread needs to be merged with the “An iPad Isn’t a Laptop Replacement” master thread to put the anti-iPad Mouse Support arguments in context.
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As you said yourself it’s about direct vs indirect input. An external physical keyboard is also an indirect input and it forces me to switch between direct and indirect input all the time when I am using the touch display.

In that sense a keyboard has much more in common with a mouse than with a touch input. Direct input is a big limitation for many productive apps. These apps need mouse or trackpad support, not all the rest....

Wrong. A keyboard does not need to be a physical input object; you can use the on-screen keyboard to achieve the same results as physical keys. A mouse by its nature is a physical add-on, thus negating the entire purpose of an iPad.

 

[Knowimagination]

As you said yourself it’s about direct vs indirect input. An external physical keyboard is also an indirect input and it forces me to switch between direct and indirect input all the time when I am using the touch display.

In that sense a keyboard has much more in common with a mouse than with a touch input. Direct input is a big limitation for many productive apps. These apps need mouse or trackpad support, not all the rest....

This literally doesn’t make any sense. The keyboard functions the exact same whether it’s in screen or physical.

A mouse functions completely differently than touch input.

 

[richpjr]

From Andrew Orr at The Mac Observer:

Ben Bajarin argues that the Apple Pencil 2 is the iPad Pro’s mouse, especially with the new gesture support.

Apple’s new gestures clearly support this theory. Apple may be easing people into this new functionality but the idea of a multi-touch function on the Apple Pencil seems like a logical path forward. At the moment, you can customize the double tap gestures on Apple Pencil to switch between the two tools you use the most.
​

I agree with Mr. Bajarin; when you double-tap on the Apple Pencil 2, think of it as a right-click. The iPad Pro doesn’t need a trackpad or mouse, and I personally hope Apple won’t add them. Those are legacy tools.​

This entire article is based on the premise that an iPad can’t replace a laptop because an iPad doesn’t have mouse support. A lot of the Mouseketeer oversee that, which is precisely why this thread needs to be merged with the “An iPad Isn’t a Laptop Replacement” master thread to put the anti-iPad Mouse Support arguments in context.
[doublepost=1542591995][/doublepost]

Wrong. A keyboard does not need to be a physical input object; you can use the on-screen keyboard to achieve the same results as physical keys. A mouse by its nature is a physical add-on, thus negating the entire purpose of an iPad.

The irony of someone who doesn't need the validation of tech bloggers who then posts a blurb from one of them to try and make a point is rich...

 

[RudySnow]

The irony of someone who doesn't need the validation of tech bloggers who then posts a blurb from one of them to try and make a point is rich...

Smart, logical retort. I was responding to YOU needing validation of some asinine video blogger who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I didn’t post that to validate my reply; I’m comfortable in my own skin.

 

[richpjr]

Smart, logical retort. I was responding to YOU needing validation of some asinine video blogger who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I didn’t post that to validate my reply; I’m comfortable in my own skin.

It really doesn't sound like it. The constant need to validate your opinion and denigrate other posters seems to indicate some serious insecurity issues. Maybe you need wings on your lawnmower or something.

 

[RudySnow]

It really doesn't sound like it. The constant need to validate your opinion and denigrate other posters seems to indicate some serious insecurity issues. Maybe you need wings on your lawnmower or something.

Look up the definition of “debate.” That means to take one side, and argue against the other. People can disagree, and just because you don’t like the disagreement doesn’t make my point “insecure” or “denigrating.” Welcome to the ignore list.

 

[booksbooks]

From Andrew Orr at The Mac Observer:

Ben Bajarin argues that the Apple Pencil 2 is the iPad Pro’s mouse, especially with the new gesture support.

Apple’s new gestures clearly support this theory. Apple may be easing people into this new functionality but the idea of a multi-touch function on the Apple Pencil seems like a logical path forward. At the moment, you can customize the double tap gestures on Apple Pencil to switch between the two tools you use the most.
​

I agree with Mr. Bajarin; when you double-tap on the Apple Pencil 2, think of it as a right-click. The iPad Pro doesn’t need a trackpad or mouse, and I personally hope Apple won’t add them. Those are legacy tools.​

This entire article is based on the premise that an iPad can’t replace a laptop because an iPad doesn’t have mouse support. A lot of the Mouseketeer oversee that, which is precisely why this thread needs to be merged with the “An iPad Isn’t a Laptop Replacement” master thread to put the anti-iPad Mouse Support arguments in context.
[doublepost=1542591995][/doublepost]

Wrong. A keyboard does not need to be a physical input object; you can use the on-screen keyboard to achieve the same results as physical keys. A mouse by its nature is a physical add-on, thus negating the entire purpose of an iPad.

From Schiller... this is what I’m talking about...

“We have thought long and deep about what choices we want to offer customers,” Schiller tells Levy. “They are all computers. Each one is offering… something unique and each is made with a simple form that is pretty eternal.”

In other words, each device has its moment in time, and then life goes on, and new devices form. The iPad is just an iPad, no matter how much gunk is glued onto it.

 

[richpjr]

Look up the definition of “debate.” That means to take one side, and argue against the other. People can disagree, and just because you don’t like the disagreement doesn’t make my point “insecure” or “denigrating.” Welcome to the ignore list.

This just gets better and better. First we get the definition of debate and argument and then you break out the ignore list because you can't handle posters not agreeing with your takes - priceless! You can't make this stuff up.

 

[RudySnow]

From Schiller... this is what I’m talking about...

“We have thought long and deep about what choices we want to offer customers,” Schiller tells Levy. “They are all computers. Each one is offering… something unique and each is made with a simple form that is pretty eternal.”

Precisely. The Mighty Mouse crowd acts like Apple has never received marketing or customer feedback in any single decision they have ever made. Apple has always been about simplicity and intuitiveness; take a look at the “instructions” they include in their hardware... virtually non-existent. The apple stickers offer more context!

 

[jeremiah256]

A lot of the Mouseketeer oversee that, which is precisely why this thread needs to be merged with the “An iPad Isn’t a Laptop Replacement” master thread to put the anti-iPad Mouse Support arguments in context.

Nice try, but no. As you've pointed out, I haven't shied away from writing paragraph upon paragraph of what I think and what I would like. I've never said the iPad Pro was not a valid replacement (for some) for a laptop. Not an alternate (a term that may have a negative connotations of accepting an inferior product), a full replacement. So, don't try and run from the discussion by having this thread merged with another.

Precisely. The Mighty Mouse crowd acts like Apple has never received marketing or customer feedback in any single decision they have ever made. Apple has always been about simplicity and intuitiveness; take a look at the “instructions” they include in their hardware... virtually non-existent. The apple stickers offer more context!

Speaking for myself, my problem isn't in Apple not accepting customer feedback and acting on it, it's that many times, they take their sweet time doing what we want.

It took them seven years to give users larger phones, although it was obvious there was a demand.

It took them five years to add stylus support, meanwhile their customers had to make due with third party passive stylus.

Also case in point would be the recent, but long over due updates of the Mac Mini, MacBook Air, and the upcoming Mac Pro.

If you want something from Apple, the worst thing you can do is wait, the best thing is to make some noise and force them to answer, yea or nay. Right now, there is a chorus of voices asking them why not mouse support on the iPad Pro. I'm glad these bloggers and YouTubers are putting the pressure on Apple. It's long overdue.

 

[RudySnow]

Nice try, but no. As you've pointed out, I haven't shied away from writing paragraph upon paragraph of what I think and what I would like. I've never said the iPad Pro was not a valid replacement (for some) for a laptop. Not an alternate (a term that may have a negative connotations of accepting an inferior product), a full replacement. So, don't try and run from the discussion by having this thread merged with another.



Speaking for myself, my problem isn't in Apple not accepting customer feedback and acting on it, it's that many times, they take their sweet time doing what we want.

It took them seven years to give users larger phones, although it was obvious there was a demand.

It took them five years to add stylus support, meanwhile their customers had to make due with third party passive stylus.

Also case in point would be the recent, but long over due updates of the Mac Mini, MacBook Air, and the upcoming Mac Pro.

If you want something from Apple, the worst thing you can do is wait, the best thing is to make some noise and force them to answer, yea or nay. Right now, there is a chorus of voices asking them why not mouse support on the iPad Pro. I'm glad these bloggers and YouTubers are putting the pressure on Apple. It's long overdue.

I’ll take each illogical paragraph a step at a time.

(1) I didn’t argue you’re suggesting the laptop-replacement theory isn’t your point. I suggested the laptop-replacement theory is melded in to the overall discussion of this thread and the other. Nice try yourself.
(2) Apple takes their “sweet time” because they react to customer feedback. The majority of customers could give a rats’ about mouse support. Just because YOU are loud about it in a MacRumors forum doesn’t make your miniscule percentage of “want” more important.
(3) iPad had stylus support since Day One, thus what I said about my use of iPad [1]. Your point: 0.
(4) So what? Again, STOP trying to blend the macOS experience with iOS.
(5) The best thing you and others can do is to present to Apple feedback, via experience, market research and customer support, as to the viability of adding a mouse to an iPad Pro. Again, you act as if this didn’t ever happen, and I’m conceding it has, and iPad isn’t a viable addition to mouse support.

As quoted by Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting, “You’re move, chief.”