Dave2D has NAILED the new iPadPro

[Brammy]

Number 1 just seems so obviously untrue to me and this is why I don’t understand why people seem to think that nothing will change.

Not to mention iOS doesn't natively have a cursor, so how do you know where the mouse is without making changes to iOS. Then app developers -- some of whom are slow enough adding new iOS base features -- need to add in how to handle secondary mouse clicks and scroll wheels. The art apps are fast to integrate the new pencil features, but Google was slow just adding in drag and drop.

I am a huge apple fan but I can tell you right now if apple decideds in the future to add mouse support for iOS that I will continue to say they are wrong and I will consider it the start of the death of the iPad line.

I can see them adding in something like a clamshell mode. There are some times I think having a mouse would he handy. However, I have a long list of iOS features I wish Apple would implement before mouse support.

 

[IowaLynn]

The one good think the BlackBerry PRIV had, and I'm not a true fan of physical keyboards, was it had cursor control.

 

[rowspaxe]

As soon as all developers are told that people using their apps now have an additional input method that is completely different than the other two they now have to design apps that will work well for both methods which as many of us have pointed out is no good for either user.

Not obvious to me. If there were mouse support, pages or excel could have the current touch gui
and would be vastly more functional with a mouse.

All existing ios apps would work well with a mouse! The benefit of the mouse is not ui interaction, it is precise selection within the displayed data. Give an example of an app that would need redesign to work with a mouse?

The dual design issue is something you are inventing, not something that exists. Making
touch apps mouse friendly requires no changes. Making mouse apps touch friendly may
require redesign. The design constraints are asymmetric.

You could argue mouse would not work well with gestures required entering the ios
environment. But so what. I enter with gesture than happily work in excel with a
mouse

 

[tromboneaholic]

View attachment 805041

Brydge shared a picture of something many people would love: a clip-on iPad Pro keyboard with a trackpad. Sadly, Brydge’s concept device just isn’t possible because iOS doesn’t support external pointing devices.

https://www.cultofmac.com/591266/brydge-taunts-us-with-ipad-pro-keyboard-we-cant-have/

Interesting article, I'd personally love optional trackpad/mouse support.

Well, I agree with this part of the article:

Adding support for mice and trackpads would not be a simple job if Apple does it correctly. That might be one of the reasons the company has avoided doing so for so long.

 

[seadragon]

Mouse support works fine on jailbroken iPads. Not sure what major changes to iOS would need to be made since it already works. Apple just needs to “flip the switch”. Plus the iPad emulator for MacOS uses a.... mouse for input. That also works just fine.

Besides, if anyone can make it work well, it’s Apple.

This is why I really don’t see what the big deal is with offering this optional feature.

 

[rowspaxe]

Not to mention iOS doesn't natively have a cursor, so how do you know where the mouse is without making changes to iOS. Then app developers -- some of whom are slow enough adding new iOS base features -- need to add in how to handle secondary mouse clicks and scroll wheels. The art apps are fast to integrate the new pencil features, but Google was slow just adding in drag and drop.

I don't think the curser issue would be hard to solve: Android supports a curser with a mouse but
not for touch. And Apple knows all about being late to the table on mouse functionality.
Still, good points.

 

[HarryWild]

Yeah, the iOS is not built for multi-tasking or for being a true computer OS with a file management system yet! That means stuck it limited functionality for now. I know it all rudimentary still compare to Android or Windows platforms! Apple will hire some talent to make it much better in the coming months. They just do not have the experienced personnel to program such features as their competitors yet! Apple will come through at the end. Mac OS is completely different and so they just cannot cut and paste a solution, sorry to say!

 

[booksbooks]

Number 1 just seems so obviously untrue to me and this is why I don’t understand why people seem to think that nothing will change.

Any app developer worth anything is going to design an app around the available methods. Currently direct input via finger or pencil are the only options that need to be designed for and they require no differentiation.

As soon as all developers are told that people using their apps now have an additional input method that is completely different than the other two they now have to design apps that will work well for both methods which as many of us have pointed out is no good for either user. The two input methods are too different to be able to continue to enjoy apps that continue to innovate direct touch input and they will never be able to be as efficient as apps developed exclusively for mouse input.

I am a huge apple fan but I can tell you right now if apple decideds in the future to add mouse support for iOS that I will continue to say they are wrong and I will consider it the start of the death of the iPad line.

Yes they would be wrong to add mouse support to iOS. However, they are not wrong to add multitouch support to OS X, which they currently have. We cannot discuss this topic without considering both hardware and software, not just the software. What holds back the iPad and iPhone for instance, is the hardware itself. It is not designed or amenable to mouse input; rather, the hardware is designed for holding and finger input.

 

[luxborealis]

Yes he nailed it. I really question myself why Apple did not improve on this although nearly everybody is complaining about that in mostly all reviews? It should be so easy for them to add the basic productivity features like pointing devices, extended external display mode and file transfer. Played with a Surface Go today and although is such a lesser device compared to the iPad it steels the show when it comes to basic productivity tasks....

To me a $2000 iPad only makes sense with an OS that gives us these basic productivity features....Nobody is only comsuming media or playing around with such a device.

iPad could be far more oroductive if it wasn’t handcuffed by iOS. I’m trialing an iPad Pro for our work environment and I get 80% through tasks only to discover I need to switch to a Mac to finish. Very frustrating as the new iPad processors are certainly powerful enough!

 

[jeremiah256]

Number 1 just seems so obviously untrue to me and this is why I don’t understand why people seem to think that nothing will change.

Any app developer worth anything is going to design an app around the available methods. Currently direct input via finger or pencil are the only options that need to be designed for and they require no differentiation.

As soon as all developers are told that people using their apps now have an additional input method that is completely different than the other two they now have to design apps that will work well for both methods which as many of us have pointed out is no good for either user. The two input methods are too different to be able to continue to enjoy apps that continue to innovate direct touch input and they will never be able to be as efficient as apps developed exclusively for mouse input.

I am a huge apple fan but I can tell you right now if apple decideds in the future to add mouse support for iOS that I will continue to say they are wrong and I will consider it the start of the death of the iPad line.

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand this argument.

I'm looking at my phone (iPad is at home) and I don't see any major or moderately successful app that doesn't already support both mouse and touch. Microsoft Office. OmniFocus. Every social app. All the apps I use for research. Any app with a web version or uses a wrapper. I challenge you to name a popular developer that either doesn't already support both methods or would be inconvenienced by adding mouse support to their app.

 

[booksbooks]

Not obvious to me. If there were mouse support, pages or excel could have the current touch gui
and would be vastly more functional with a mouse.

All existing ios apps would work well with a mouse! The benefit of the mouse is not ui interaction, it is precise selection within the displayed data. Give an example of an app that would need redesign to work with a mouse?

The dual design issue is something you are inventing, not something that exists. Making
touch apps mouse friendly requires no changes. Making mouse apps touch friendly may
require redesign. The design constraints are asymmetric.

You could argue mouse would not work well with gestures required entering the ios
environment. But so what. I enter with gesture than happily work in excel with a
mouse

No, Pages for instance on iPad with mouse support would still suck, because the GUI is designed for touch. Can’t even have a persistently visible toolbar...

And you are dead wrong about iOS and Apps not needing redesigns for dual support. The hit targets are in many cases too big making the GUI inefficient for mouse support because the visible buttons are significantly limited requiring many more “clicks” to get at what you want buried in a mobile GUI.

There are many other issues...

 

[luxborealis]

What’s really preventing the iPad from being a serious contender in the computer space is the lack of mouse and trackpad support.

No - it’s iOS that’s killing iPad Pros - it’s like driving go carts when you’re used to a proper car!

 

[Knowimagination]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand this argument.

I'm looking at my phone (iPad is at home) and I don't see any major or moderately successful app that doesn't already support both mouse and touch. Microsoft Office. OmniFocus. Every social app. All the apps I use for research. Any app with a web version or uses a wrapper. I challenge you to name a popular developer that either doesn't already support both methods or would be inconvenienced by adding mouse support to their app.

No app on your iPhone was designed to be used with a mouse.

The fact that a mouse can work on a touch os is not the point. The point is apps won’t continue to be developed solely for touch and the user experience for touch users will suffer because of it.
[doublepost=1542581533][/doublepost]

Not obvious to me. If there were mouse support, pages or excel could have the current touch gui
and would be vastly more functional with a mouse.

All existing ios apps would work well with a mouse! The benefit of the mouse is not ui interaction, it is precise selection within the displayed data. Give an example of an app that would need redesign to work with a mouse?

The dual design issue is something you are inventing, not something that exists. Making
touch apps mouse friendly requires no changes. Making mouse apps touch friendly may
require redesign. The design constraints are asymmetric.

You could argue mouse would not work well with gestures required entering the ios
environment. But so what. I enter with gesture than happily work in excel with a
mouse

This just tells me you don’t understand or care about good design. I’m not saying that as a dig but anyone who thinks you don’t have to design touch apps differently from mouse apps can’t care about good design.

There is an enormous difference between a mouse being useable in an app and being optimal. Sure you could use a mouse on any part of iOS but it would be inherently a worse experience than the touch it was designed for.

 

[RudySnow]

No app on your iPhone was designed to be used with a mouse.

The fact that a mouse can work on a touch os is not the point. The point is apps won’t continue to be developed solely for touch and the user experience for touch users will suffer because of it.
[doublepost=1542581533][/doublepost]
This just tells me you don’t understand or care about good design. I’m not saying that as a dig but anyone who thinks you don’t have to design touch apps differently from mouse apps can’t care about good design.

There is an enormous difference between a mouse being useable in an app and being optimal. Sure you could use a mouse on any part of iOS but it would be inherently a worse experience than the touch it was designed for.

Exactly.

And, conversely, add a Planar touchscreen monitor to a Mac Mini, for instance like I did, and theoretically macOS CAN work with touch. BUT IT SUCKS. The UI wasn’t ever built for touch from day one. Can macOS UI be redesigned for touch? Of course. Should it? No, absolutely not, and I would be advocating against it on macOS just as strongly as I am against adding mouse to iOS.

So, just as macOS wasn’t designed for touch, iOS wasn’t designed for mouse. This is intentional, and the wheel doesn’t need to be reinvented to fit a few small cars on the highway.

 

[seadragon]

iOS wasn’t designed for a pencil either, but they made that work just fine. Just like a mouse ALREADY works with jailbroken iOS and iOS emulator for MacOS. Why is nobody acknowledging this fact? Hello????

 

[booksbooks]

No app on your iPhone was designed to be used with a mouse.

The fact that a mouse can work on a touch os is not the point. The point is apps won’t continue to be developed solely for touch and the user experience for touch users will suffer because of it.
[doublepost=1542581533][/doublepost]
This just tells me you don’t understand or care about good design. I’m not saying that as a dig but anyone who thinks you don’t have to design touch apps differently from mouse apps can’t care about good design.

There is an enormous difference between a mouse being useable in an app and being optimal. Sure you could use a mouse on any part of iOS but it would be inherently a worse experience than the touch it was designed for.

Not only good design but FUNCTIONAL DESIGN.

Mobile App interfaces generally suck on a point and click device; point and click interfaces generally suck on mobile touch devices. Imagine Auto CAD desktop GUI on the iPhone or iPad...

That’s why there are two different operating systems in the first place. Two different design patterns and standards.

The hit targets for mobile GUIs must be bigger than on point and click devices to deal with a much larger input device (meaty finger) to avoid spurious inputs and optimize the interaction. This necessarily results in much more simplistic GUIs that simply don’t take advantage of much larger screens amd precise input devices.

When, for instance, you’re on your laptop or desktop and for whatever reason the mobile version of Facebook or equivalent shows, it’s absurd as a GUI and you immediately want to change it to desktop.

 

[Knowimagination]

.

 

[booksbooks]

Exactly.

And, conversely, add a Planar touchscreen monitor to a Mac Mini, for instance like I did, and theoretically macOS CAN work with touch. BUT IT SUCKS. The UI wasn’t ever built for touch from day one. Can macOS UI be redesigned for touch? Of course. Should it? No, absolutely not, and I would be advocating against it on macOS just as strongly as I am against adding mouse to iOS.

So, just as macOS wasn’t designed for touch, iOS wasn’t designed for mouse. This is intentional, and the wheel doesn’t need to be reinvented to fit a few small cars on the highway.

ALL OF THE MULTITOUCH IN IOS IS IN OS X! Trackpad plus OS X. It’s not just software but hardware.

 

[Knowimagination]

iOS wasn’t designed for a pencil either, but they made that work just fine. Just like a mouse ALREADY works with jailbroken iOS and iOS emulator for MacOS. Why is nobody acknowledging this fact? Hello????

If you don’t understand the difference between the pencil and a mouse then it is no wonder you don’t understand our concerns.

 

[seadragon]

If you don’t understand the difference between the pencil and a mouse then it is no wonder you don’t understand our concerns.

Seriously?

Just like you don’t understand the ergonomic desire of having a mouse for docked use.

I know the difference between a pencil and mouse. Good grief, we’re talking about a way to click/tap/select items on a screen. Both work for this purpose. I haven’t read ANYTHING in this thread that states why a mouse wouldn’t work. No specific examples. Especially since it already does work as I already mentioned.

 

[rowspaxe]

The fact that a mouse can work on a touch os is not the point. The point is apps won’t continue to be developed solely for touch and the user experience for touch users will suffer because of it.

aren't touch users suffering already, dealing with cut and paste, or spread sheet cell selection?
the point is the ipad could be a remarkable hybrid with mouse support.

This just tells me you don’t understand or care about good design. I’m not saying that as a dig but anyone who thinks you don’t have to design touch apps differently from mouse apps can’t care about good design.

Yes, I don't care about 'good' design that stands in the way of productivity. What about the way the pencil makes working in video apps less clumbsy. How is that different from mouse support. No one is redesigning apps for the pencil!

There is an enormous difference between a mouse being useable in an app and being optimal.

This is the point you have to make: I have used a cursor on touch apps in windows and
android and the experience is fine. Even without optimization, the curser experience is
far more efficient for word processing and spreadsheet tasks.

 

[jeremiah256]

No app on your iPhone was designed to be used with a mouse.

I'm not sure what differences you believe there are between how an iOS app reacts with regard to touch vs mouse input. Here's from six years ago:

The fact that a mouse can work on a touch os is not the point. The point is apps won’t continue to be developed solely for touch and the user experience for touch users will suffer because of it.

Your concerns are that Apple, the only company that has been able to force telcomms to not mess with their phones by adding third party crap; Apple, the only company that can legally make an iPhone; Apple, the gatekeeper of any app that gets to work on their iPhone, is going to let developers run wild and screw up the experience on the iPad?

 

[Brammy]

iOS wasn’t designed for a pencil either, but they made that work just fine. Just like a mouse ALREADY works with jailbroken iOS and iOS emulator for MacOS. Why is nobody acknowledging this fact? Hello????

Styluses of some nature have always been supported by iOS. Prior to the pencil, the rubber tipped styluses worked. By default -- other than the new secondary tap on the Pencil 2 -- all the Pencil and stylus does is act as direct agent for your finger. You tap with the Pencil where you would have with your finger. There wasn't anything -- outside of an app that supports pressure sensitivity -- you couldn't do with a Pencil you couldn't do with your Finger. Just with finer controls. Go watch some videos of people painting with their fingers on the iPad. Some pretty amazing stuff there.

I haven’t read ANYTHING in this thread that states why a mouse wouldn’t work. No specific examples. Especially since it already does work as I already mentioned.

The mouse adds another interface layer. It would probably be easy to get something to work similar to a jailbroken phone where you direct a cursor with a mouse and can single-click. But will people really be happy with that? Naturally people are going to want to secondary click. Ok, maybe Apple can use some of the code for the tap on the side of the Pencil and devs can already code for that. But what about scrolling with the mouse wheel? Do you zoom and out, or do you scroll in and out? Those are the behaviors developers will need to code for. The Settings app for iOS won't cover that. What about those gaming mice you can have a bunch of buttons on? You start to get down a slippery slope argument for what does Apple support. What if they only support the Magic Trackpad for gesture support? Well, then we get the whole "Greedy Apple just wants me to buy their own trackpad" argument.

 

[RudySnow]

ALL OF THE MULTITOUCH IN IOS IS IN OS X! Trackpad plus OS X. It’s not just software but hardware.

LOL. Right on, right on. I wonder why these mouse fanboys aren’t screaming for mouse support in CarPlayOS and tvOS. They’re based on OSX, too!

Hey, wait a minute... tvOS can already link to a Bluetooth keyboard, right? Wouldn’t adding a mouse just be a simple add since the remote already controls a cursor?

I WANT MOUSE SUPPORT ON MY APPLE TV! QUIT LAUGHING AT ME! YOU’RE ALL WRONG!!!

 

[rowspaxe]

If you don’t understand the difference between the pencil and a mouse then it is no wonder you don’t understand our concerns.

I don't understand this destinction, I don't see where you make this case. Oops, Brammy does!

The mouse adds another interface layer.

Fine. Add it to the api: no new terratory here. Devs can support it or not, like the pencil tap.
[doublepost=1542585439][/doublepost]

I WANT MOUSE SUPPORT ON MY APPLE TV! QUIT LAUGHING AT ME! YOU’RE ALL WRONG!!!

I am totally pro troll so I applaud your efforts to evade salient issues.

 

[CrazyForCashews]

No - it’s iOS that’s killing iPad Pros - it’s like driving go carts when you’re used to a proper car!

Apple should introduce iOS Pro for the iPad Pros.

An iPhone and iPad are two very different products with different use cases. Why not offer a software OS that use them efficiently and effectively? iOS is fine on the iPhone, but on the iPad not so much.