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simonsi

Contributor
Jan 3, 2014
4,851
735
Auckland
The crop factor needs to be applied to the FoV, DOV and the overall light gathering ability. of the body-lens combo. In real world usage the light gathering part can be disregarded, because the camera manufaturer already applied the crop factor to the iso rating of the sensor, to make the same iso number look equally bright on different sized sensors. This is provided we are talking about two sensors of different sizes but the same pixelcount.

The sensor size is irrelevant to exposure. The manufacturer calibrates the ISO settings due to differences in light-gathering ability of differently-sized photo-sites which come from the desired pixel density of the sensor as it is the size of the photo-site that determines how much light is gathered per pixel for a given light intensity. That is the only variable, they don't calibrate by sensore size.

The example I gave above of a camera with an FX sensor with a crop mode illustrates this. The pixel density of the FX and DX areas are identical in pixels/sqmm so the exposure settings do not change depending on whether FX or DX mode is selected.

A 200mm/2.8 lens puts out a given light intensity to the projected image circle. That light intensity does not change depending on the sensor/film size (assuming zero corner falloff and the circle covers the sensor/film).

So the lens manufacturers list their lenses correctly. A 2.8 is a 2.8 is a 2.8. Yes they have different DoF effects but that is not the prime reason an f-stop is quoted for a lens, it is to tell you about light gathering power, not the DoF side-effect. To quote a 2.8 lens as something else relating to DoF would be to cause a bigger error/uncertainty than that being "fixed".
 

kingalexthe1st

macrumors 6502
Apr 13, 2013
477
166
Do you know many manufacturers of lenses for 4x5 who advertise focal length based on '35mm equivalence' and, moreover, do so to amateurs who might not know any better?

I don't have the time to watch that entire video (though oddly I am finding the time to post) but the section I did watch (the one you mention) makes sense. What don't you like about it? The formula is an excellent teaching aid which gives you the right numbers, so, what's not to like?

Because he's claiming that the formula is somehow 'wrong' and that companies are purposefully deceiving the customer. They give the focal length in '35mm equivalent' only to help the customer in knowing what FoV they'll get. They then specify the lens aperture as it should be; focal length (actual, measurable, physical focal length) over lens diameter. That's not being deceiving, that's telling the truth.

Alex
 

whiteonline

macrumors 6502a
Aug 19, 2011
633
463
California, USA
The equivalency debate needs to be dropped. Using a crop body? Full frame? Does it really matter?
The people who watch Northrup and the likes don't have years of 35mm exposure intuition, so again, why does the comparison matter?
Just figure out what works best with the camera, and carry on.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,156
25,262
Gotta be in it to win it
You may call this 'dumbing down' for the masses.

If so in this case I'm all for it. Who in Gods name when buying their first DSLR kit needs to know the aperture equivalents for a large format camera and their old IXUS from the back of the cupboard.

Let the journey start before the knowledge (lack of) and the theory get in the way.

Oh I realise its a discussion on marketing speak but come on. If you know that much that you can spot the gentle smoothing you really don't need the sales pitch!

Or what the circle of confusion is or any of the very technical terms that do not contribute to what makes a good composition.
 

RCAFBrat

macrumors 6502
Jul 10, 2013
270
79
Montreal, QC
A 12-35mm f2.8 lens performs on a m4/3 camera as a 24-70 f5.6 lens would perform on a 35mm camera. The crop factor needs to be applied to the FoV, DOV and the overall light gathering ability.of the body-lens combo.

???

I'm afraid that statement confuses me.

I'm also afraid that your original comment that started this debate is a mistake or misunderstanding (maybe you're talking apples and juanm is talking oranges):

The debate started over the assertion that a FF lens (fixed diameter and fixed focal length) used on a crop sensor camera will have equivalent focal length times the crop factor but same speed (aperture or f-stop). This is correct since the physics of the lens do not change. After all, as you have pointed out, N = F / D.

The difference is that the crop sensor camera is only capturing a fraction of the potential image. The potential image is identical but the cropped sensor fills its frame with only a part of that image - since the frame has been filled with this relatively small part of the image, it gives the appearance that it has been magnified by the crop factor (I suppose it actually has been if the two sensors have the same number of pixels).

Would it not be the same as using digital zoom on a FF camera (ie focal length and diameter of the lens are the same but only portion of the image would be saved if there were such a camera)? Perhaps this is a stretch.

My two cents...
 

simonsi

Contributor
Jan 3, 2014
4,851
735
Auckland
Uh oh.

Just remembered that lenses project circles. So some of the light gathered by an FX lens falls outside the sensor too!. :eek:

What to do, ALL lenses are marked wrong according to TN from ALL manufacturers and have been forever...

Phew - just woke up from that nightmare. So conclusively, light falling outside the sensor (any sensor), is irrelevant.

Only the intensity of the light hitting the sensor matters and that is always the same irrespective of the size of the sensor - the lens doesn't care, it only knows its focal length and aperture, that (and only that), governs the light intensity it passes through.
 

Meister

Suspended
Oct 10, 2013
5,456
4,310
???

I'm afraid that statement confuses me.

I'm also afraid that your original comment that started this debate is a mistake or misunderstanding (maybe you're talking apples and juanm is talking oranges):
Simonsi's post previous to yours made me realize that, too. We are talking about the same thing looked at from two different perspectives. Juanm just didn't really explain what he meant. Also what Tony Northrup is pointing out is not wrong either. Praising m4/3 by advertising lenses by giving their equivalent 35mm FOV, but disregarding the aperture is a bit misleading. However I do understand that the altered FOV is the most important factor for most people.
 

winkosmosis

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2012
57
4
Hawaii
What he says about aperture is right. When you give an equivalent focal length you should also give the aperture equivalent. For example a 60mm f2.8 lens mounted on an APS-C camera is equivalent to 90mm f4.2
 

simonsi

Contributor
Jan 3, 2014
4,851
735
Auckland
What he says about aperture is right. When you give an equivalent focal length you should also give the aperture equivalent. For example a 60mm f2.8 lens mounted on an APS-C camera is equivalent to 90mm f4.2

Read the thread, for exposure <no it isn't>. The reasons are all already stated above.
 

v3rlon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2014
925
749
Earth (usually)
What he says about aperture is right. When you give an equivalent focal length you should also give the aperture equivalent. For example a 60mm f2.8 lens mounted on an APS-C camera is equivalent to 90mm f4.2

for equivalent zoom, this is true.
for equivalent depth of focus, this is true.

for EXPOSURE, THIS IS NOT TRUE.

Can someone with a full frame camera mount a couple of lenses and kill this undead zombie horse once and for all?
 

OreoCookie

macrumors 68030
Apr 14, 2001
2,727
90
Sendai, Japan
for equivalent zoom, this is true.
for equivalent depth of focus, this is true.

for EXPOSURE, THIS IS NOT TRUE.

Can someone with a full frame camera mount a couple of lenses and kill this undead zombie horse once and for all?
The whole argument is based on semantics: Most people connect equivalence of lenses to the viewing angle and exposure, but there is no »true« equivalence of lenses coupled to different sensor sizes.
 

truettray

macrumors 6502
Sep 7, 2012
386
268
USA
Are there any YouTube personalities that are just rock solid in their knowledge of the craft? That's a legit question. I watch Kelby, Fro, Tony.. even DigitalRev strictly for entertainment, and don't think of them as serious instructors. I also don't try and work on my Honda following YouTube DIY videos, but that's just me.
 

winkosmosis

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2012
57
4
Hawaii
for equivalent zoom, this is true.
for equivalent depth of focus, this is true.

for EXPOSURE, THIS IS NOT TRUE.

Can someone with a full frame camera mount a couple of lenses and kill this undead zombie horse once and for all?

The lux at the sensor is the same for a given aperture, BUT if you're tryng to mentally compare low light performance between sensor sizes it helps to think of equivalent aperture.

The APS sensor is gathering as much light with the f2.8 lens as a FF with an f4.2. The MFT sensor is gathering the equivalent of an f5.6 lens even if it has an f2.8 lens.

Tony Northrup's point is that when, for example, Panasonic touts their LX-7 as having an f1.7 lens and therefore good in low light, they're misleading you, because the camera only has a 1/1.7" sensor

Also, like I said lux at the sensor is the same BUT that's irrelevant. We aren't exposing film so that value has no meaning to us.
 

simonsi

Contributor
Jan 3, 2014
4,851
735
Auckland
The lux at the sensor is the same for a given aperture, BUT if you're tryng to mentally compare low light performance between sensor sizes it helps to think of equivalent aperture.

The APS sensor is gathering as much light with the f2.8 lens as a FF with an f4.2. The MFT sensor is gathering the equivalent of an f5.6 lens even if it has an f2.8 lens.

Tony Northrup's point is that when, for example, Panasonic touts their LX-7 as having an f1.7 lens and therefore good in low light, they're misleading you, because the camera only has a 1/1.7" sensor

Also, like I said lux at the sensor is the same BUT that's irrelevant. We aren't exposing film so that value has no meaning to us.

An f1.7 lens is good in low light full stop, irrespective of sensor size. The resulting intensity of the light hitting the image plane is the same across the image circle (ignoring any corner falloff). It is the same in the DX zone, it is the same in the FX zone, it is the same in the lost light outside the FX zone (as lenses project a circle). It is the same whether film, FX or DX - the lens doesn't care. Exposure is the same, that is what the aperture of a lens will tell you. Exposure is light intensity per sq mm of film or sensor, total light captured by the sensor is irrelevant to exposure.

Do you have an FX camera with a DX mode? Switch between the two on auto, does the camera exposure setting change? No it doesn't, because the exposure stays the same for the smaller sensor.
 

juanm

macrumors 68000
Original poster
May 1, 2006
1,626
3,053
Fury 161
???

I'm afraid that statement confuses me.

I'm also afraid that your original comment that started this debate is a mistake or misunderstanding (maybe you're talking apples and juanm is talking oranges):

The debate started over the assertion that a FF lens (fixed diameter and fixed focal length) used on a crop sensor camera will have equivalent focal length times the crop factor but same speed (aperture or f-stop). This is correct since the physics of the lens do not change. After all, as you have pointed out, N = F / D.

The difference is that the crop sensor camera is only capturing a fraction of the potential image. The potential image is identical but the cropped sensor fills its frame with only a part of that image - since the frame has been filled with this relatively small part of the image, it gives the appearance that it has been magnified by the crop factor (I suppose it actually has been if the two sensors have the same number of pixels).

Would it not be the same as using digital zoom on a FF camera (ie focal length and diameter of the lens are the same but only portion of the image would be saved if there were such a camera)? Perhaps this is a stretch.

My two cents...

You're exactly right. And normally I wouldn't open a thread like this, I just don't care enough. However, a full frame system usually comes at a huge premium and a guy like Northrup encourages people (new users who don't know better) to overspend, when the cheaper option would do just fine, it pisses me off. There are reasons to choose the FF camera, but there are also reasons to choose the CS camera, and telling people to get the most expensive system based on false assumptions is morally wrong.

Too bad I don't know anyone with a view camera around here, it'd be proven very easily by mounting a Nikon adapter with FF and DX lenses, and and measuring the brightness on the ground glass. Even in the digital age, there's nothing like a good old fashioned field camera to understand photography.
 
Last edited:

Edge100

macrumors 68000
May 14, 2002
1,567
25
Where am I???
The lux at the sensor is the same for a given aperture, BUT if you're tryng to mentally compare low light performance between sensor sizes it helps to think of equivalent aperture.

The APS sensor is gathering as much light with the f2.8 lens as a FF with an f4.2. The MFT sensor is gathering the equivalent of an f5.6 lens even if it has an f2.8 lens.

Tony Northrup's point is that when, for example, Panasonic touts their LX-7 as having an f1.7 lens and therefore good in low light, they're misleading you, because the camera only has a 1/1.7" sensor

Also, like I said lux at the sensor is the same BUT that's irrelevant. We aren't exposing film so that value has no meaning to us.

This is completely wrong, or at best, misleading.

Consider a hypothetical camera company that makes cameras with the same physical piece of silicon for a sensor, with one model at 24x36mm (i.e. FF) and one at m4/3 dimensions (i.e. ~1/4 the area, or a 'crop' factor of ~2x).

You stick a 50mm f/1.4 lens on both cameras and go outside on a sunny day. You meter your scene. Both cameras tell you the exposure is f/16, 1/125 at ISO 100. You take the shot with both cameras. Now, how do the shots compare:

1. The m4/3 camera produces an image with 1/2 the horizontal angle of view of the FF camera. Indeed, it's the same angle of view as a 100mm lens would have on the FF camera (NOTE: aspect ratios are different, meaning it's not *precisely* 1/2 the AoV, but it's close enough for our purposes here).

2. The exposures are identical, for those elements that are in both images.

3. The depth of field on the FF shot is 1/2 that of the m4/3 camera. Or, put another way, you'd have to open the lens up to f/8 on the m4/3 camera to get the same DoF as the FF camera gets at f/16. But, of course, this also would increase your exposure by 2 stops, so you'd need to shoot at 1/500 to compensate.

4. When enlarged to the same print or JPEG size, the FF image is cleaner.

It's this last point that (generally) confuses people. The reason that larger sensors (all other things being equal) are cleaner is that *they require less enlargement for a given output size*.

This is why people choose MF or LF film over 35mm film when very large enlargements are required; the film grain is the same size on all formats (the film is the same, after all), but the elements of the photograph don't need as much enlargement from a LF negative than from a 35mm negative. In fact, if you're making an 8x10 print from an 8x10 negative, you don't need to enlarge at all, and grain is virtually invisible, even with very high speed films.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

----------

even in the digital age, there's nothing like a good old fashioned field camera to understand photography.

yes!!!!!!!!
 

winkosmosis

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2012
57
4
Hawaii
An f1.7 lens is good in low light full stop, irrespective of sensor size. The resulting intensity of the light hitting the image plane is the same across the image circle (ignoring any corner falloff). It is the same in the DX zone, it is the same in the FX zone, it is the same in the lost light outside the FX zone (as lenses project a circle). It is the same whether film, FX or DX - the lens doesn't care. Exposure is the same, that is what the aperture of a lens will tell you. Exposure is light intensity per sq mm of film or sensor, total light captured by the sensor is irrelevant to exposure.

Do you have an FX camera with a DX mode? Switch between the two on auto, does the camera exposure setting change? No it doesn't, because the exposure stays the same for the smaller sensor.

That's what I said, intensity of light is the same. But the TOTAL LIGHT hitting the 1/1.7" sensor is far lower. That's why small sensors perform worse in low light. For the same ISO on a tiny sensor and a full frame one, the tiny sensor is being fed more voltage to reach the same exposure
 

Edge100

macrumors 68000
May 14, 2002
1,567
25
Where am I???
That's what I said, intensity of light is the same. But the TOTAL LIGHT hitting the 1/1.7" sensor is far lower. That's why small sensors perform worse in low light. For the same ISO on a tiny sensor and a full frame one, the tiny sensor is being fed more voltage to reach the same exposure

NO!

Re-read what I wrote above.
 

winkosmosis

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2012
57
4
Hawaii
This is completely wrong, or at best, misleading.

Consider a hypothetical camera company that makes cameras with the same physical piece of silicon for a sensor, with one model at 24x36mm (i.e. FF) and one at m4/3 dimensions (i.e. ~1/4 the area, or a 'crop' factor of ~2x).

You stick a 50mm f/1.4 lens on both cameras and go outside on a sunny day. You meter your scene. Both cameras tell you the exposure is f/16, 1/125 at ISO 100. You take the shot with both cameras. Now, how do the shots compare:

1. The m4/3 camera produces an image with 1/2 the horizontal angle of view of the FF camera. Indeed, it's the same angle of view as a 100mm lens would have on the FF camera (NOTE: aspect ratios are different, meaning it's not *precisely* 1/2 the AoV, but it's close enough for our purposes here).

2. The exposures are identical, for those elements that are in both images.

3. The depth of field on the FF shot is 1/2 that of the m4/3 camera. Or, put another way, you'd have to open the lens up to f/8 on the m4/3 camera to get the same DoF as the FF camera gets at f/16. But, of course, this also would increase your exposure by 2 stops, so you'd need to shoot at 1/500 to compensate.

4. When enlarged to the same print or JPEG size, the FF image is cleaner.

It's this last point that (generally) confuses people. The reason that larger sensors (all other things being equal) are cleaner is that *they require less enlargement for a given output size*.

This is why people choose MF or LF film over 35mm film when very large enlargements are required; the film grain is the same size on all formats (the film is the same, after all), but the elements of the photograph don't need as much enlargement from a LF negative than from a 35mm negative. In fact, if you're making an 8x10 print from an 8x10 negative, you don't need to enlarge at all, and grain is virtually invisible, even with very high speed films.

That's it. That's all there is to it.

----------



yes!!!!!!!!

The "grain" is not the same between sensor sizes because it depends on the pixel dimensions of the sensors. Picture a MFT 16 megapixel sensor and a FF 16 megapixel sensor. Displayed at the same size the DPI is identical. The reason the MFT one displays more noise is because the photosites are 1/4 the area, requiring more voltage for any given ISO value, so the signal to noise ratio is worse. So yes, the lux at the sensor is the same all else being equal, but the MFT sensor is working with much smaller collecting area to make the same resolution image.
 

Edge100

macrumors 68000
May 14, 2002
1,567
25
Where am I???
The "grain" is not the same between sensor sizes because it depends on the pixel dimensions of the sensors. Picture a MFT 16 megapixel sensor and a FF 16 megapixel sensor. Displayed at the same size the DPI is identical. The reason the MFT one displays more noise is because the photosites are 1/4 the area, requiring more voltage for any given ISO value, so the signal to noise ratio is worse. So yes, the lux at the sensor is the same all else being equal, but the MFT sensor is working with much smaller collecting area to make the same resolution image.

This is so wrong. Did you read the part where I wrote "all other things being equal"? Now you're changing the photosite size. That has nothing to do with sensor size.

Imagine the sensor was film. Then work it out.
 

winkosmosis

macrumors member
Oct 20, 2012
57
4
Hawaii
This is so wrong. Did you read the part where I wrote "all other things being equal"? Now you're changing the photosite size. That has nothing to do with sensor size.

Imagine the sensor was film. Then work it out.

I don't know how to explain this any more simply. If a MFT sensor and a FF sensor have the same total number of megapixels, the MFT's sensor sites are 1/4 the size. They are NOT THE SAME SIZE.
 
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