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jinnyman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 2, 2011
762
671
Lincolnshire, IL
I can't say I don't miss it.
My Mac Mini is phenomenal as it is. But sometimes, the low power, power efficient machine can also run Windows via virtual machine.

Contrary to other people here, I'm not bound to any OS, and I actually enjoy having many options. I don't want to be limited what I run by OS, so I have multiple machines. Why throw away experiences for mere loyalty to Mac OS?
It's not like houses and cars that I can own only one or two you know.
 
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ManuCH

macrumors 68000
May 7, 2009
1,601
1,206
Switzerland
it may not be perfect, but its my understanding there are virtual environments in beta that work on M1 for basic needs

right?

That's right. I'm running Windows ARM via Insider Preview, as well as Parallels Desktop Technical Preview. Works perfectly fine and much faster than on any Intel Mac I've owned before. Of course it has its quirks, but I only use Windows for those very few apps once in forever that don't have a macOS equivalent.

Ubuntu Linux (aarch64) also runs fine.
 

TrueBlou

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2014
4,531
3,619
Scotland
I can't say I don't miss it.
My Mac Mini is phenomenal as it is. But sometimes, the low power, power efficient machine can also run Windows via virtual machine.

Contrary to other people here, I'm not bound to any OS, and I actually enjoy having many options. I don't want to be limited what I run by OS, so I have multiple machines. Why throw away experiences for mere loyalty to Mac OS?
It's not like houses and cars that I can own only one or two you know.


Not everyone may necessarily have that luxury though, I'm sure there are many people who can only buy one computer. Though I'd like to think that if you wanted to buy a Mac and you absolutely need to run Windows, you'd be avoiding Apple Silicon, at least for the time being.

For what its worth, I do agree with you, there's a good reason I still have two Windows servers and a couple (ok, 40 odd) Windows laptops with hardware dating all the way back to the DOS days (man, I loved DOS, hated Windows with a passion when it first appeared :D).
I still use Windows, even though the Mac has been my system of choice for decades now. I've just never quite been able to give up either of them, Windows still has the occasional purpose my Mac can't fulfil, so keeping both is the only way to, well, get the best of both worlds as it were. I'm playing around with Win10ARM, but mostly for curiosity, when I need Windows, I mostly RD into my most powerful server.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,449
That ?? is ?? not ??true
Craig Federighi literally said Apple Silicon can run Windows natively provided Microsoft licences it.

Hold your emojis and read what your source actually says rather than what you want it to say. First, Federighi didn't "literally" say that. "Natively" is after-the-fact commentary by the journalist - the actual Federighi quote was:
"We have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows"
...which could equally mean virtualisation, and the core technology could be MacOS's hypervisor kit which is (presumably) what Parallels uses, and what some folk have already used to get Linux running...

Second, if you look at the original article the preceding paragraph refers to using Windows in the Cloud and Crossover+Emulation to run x86 Windows (and negatively comparing it to Parallels/VMWare on Intel Macs). So, in context, "natively" (which, remember, wasn't attributed to Federighi anyway) could just mean Windows-on-ARM rather than x86. Note, the 9to5Mac article you quote has reversed the order of those two paragraphs (spin, intentional or otherwise, is sooooo easy...)

Now, that would, at best, be ambiguous, but now here's the same Craig Federighi explicitly saying "we're not direct-booting an alternate operating system. Purely virtualisation is the route":


Meanwhile, we've seen WoA running well under Parallels so we know that it's mainly a case of Microsoft agreeing to license it. Whereas Bootcamp won't be possible unless Apple supports MS in writing the drivers.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,449
I can't say I don't miss it.

Heck, I'll miss it... but I'd rather have a better MacOS machine than a mediocre Windows machine.

In reality, I'm not ready to switch to Big Sur yet, let alone M1, so we're talking 6 months or so down the line before I consider it, by which time there will probably be a range of Windows on ARM virtualisation, WIn x86 emulation and cloud options.

However, if Apple Silicon hadn't happened, then there would be a very good chance that my next machine would be a PC anyway, because Apple just wanted too much cash - and, more importantly, offered too little choice - for what was basically a PC clone with mediocre hardware specs and a MacOS license. (The choice is important here - the , say, 5k iMac is pretty respectable value if and only if you actually want a 5k all-in-one... if you want a mid-range headless desktop with a couple of 24" 4ks, it's a joke, as is a Mini with minimum-viable-product Intel UHD graphics...). I prefer MacOS, but I can do everything I need to do on Windows if necessary.

With Apple Silicon, though - if the success of the M1 is repeated with the M1X/M2/whatever then Macs are going to offer a hefty performance advantage over PCs, even if you have to compromise on form factor. The M1 Mini already has a faster GPU than the Intel UHD so with a M1X/M2 the GPU may be a non-issue, and now even being stuck with non-expandable RAM comes with a performance pay-off...

When I first bought an Intel Mac in 2006, being able to dual boot and/or virtualise Windows and Linux was a significant bonus. 14 years later, the reasons for needing Windows are rapidly evaporating - no more testing websites in Internet Explorer, far more MacOS and platform-independent software available and plenty of powerful, compact PCs available if you need a "real" PC (kids these days whining about having to carry a MacBook Air and a Surface Pro have never lugged a Powerbook G3 around Heathrow!).

Meanwhile, if my main pay-the-bills workflow was on Windows and didn't work under virtualisation, I'd just get a PC. I prefer MacOS, but its not worth the hassle of continually rebooting. I'm going to need to do that anyway if I get another paying webapp development gig, because I need to be able to test stuff on a Windows touchscreen.

Thing is, if Mac and MacOS are better than Windows, a big part of that is because Windows has to face a huge burden of backwards compatibility to satisfy all those conservative corporate and industrial customers. Compromising the development of Macs for the sake of Windows compatibility could be the undoing of Mac, We're just lucky that, for a time, the Intel Core i chips were the best solution for Macs, and that made Windows support very easy.
 

DeanL

macrumors 65816
May 29, 2014
1,352
1,289
London
Now, that would, at best, be ambiguous, but now here's the same Craig Federighi explicitly saying "we're not direct-booting an alternate operating system. Purely virtualisation is the route":
That was way before the Ars Technica interview though. It wouldn’t be the first time Apple changes course, especially given that at the time of the Daring Fireball interview, the M1 hadn’t been released yet.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,449
That was way before the Ars Technica interview though. It wouldn’t be the first time Apple changes course, especially given that at the time of the Daring Fireball interview, the M1 hadn’t been released yet.

Apple could, of course, U-turn at any point, and no laws of physics would be harmed, but there's absolutely no evidence of that yet. That later interview makes perfect sense if you take it as a reference to virtualisation and the MacOS Hypervisor kit, but just raises more questions in the context of direct booting, which MS couldn't realistically do without working with Apple on M1 drivers.

MS literally have all they need to produce a virtualised version of WoA - with Apple's Hyperkit doing the low-level virtualisation, MS are big enough and ugly enough to write their own Hypervisor front end or (more likely) just cut Parallels or VMWare an OEM-type license.
 

Roxy.music

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 9, 2019
862
90
uk
I see that you will be able to game on the M1 Mac with Wine ,but it seems a hit and miss thing at present.s
. I like this guys videos .
:)
 

DeanL

macrumors 65816
May 29, 2014
1,352
1,289
London
Apple could, of course, U-turn at any point, and no laws of physics would be harmed, but there's absolutely no evidence of that yet. That later interview makes perfect sense if you take it as a reference to virtualisation and the MacOS Hypervisor kit, but just raises more questions in the context of direct booting, which MS couldn't realistically do without working with Apple on M1 drivers.

MS literally have all they need to produce a virtualised version of WoA - with Apple's Hyperkit doing the low-level virtualisation, MS are big enough and ugly enough to write their own Hypervisor front end or (more likely) just cut Parallels or VMWare an OEM-type license.

I sent an email to Craig Federighi, and he actually replied pretty fast.

1. The Boot Camp Assistant being on M1 Macs is an "artifact" due to the fact that there is a single image for both ARM and Intel Macs.
2. He reiterated there is the great Apple Hypervisor framework available.​
So y'all were right: Boot Camp is 100% dead.
 

Stridr69

macrumors 6502
May 8, 2012
271
315
I think the harsh reality is that those who need Windows apps are going to have to buy a Windows PC. That doesn't mean you have to give up your Mac, far from it. People seem to have an "all or nothing" attitude to these things sometimes. But many people who also ran Windows on their Mac in the past are going to have to get with the programme and run a separate PC as well.

While Windows on ARM has an ability to emulate x86/64 apps, it's a clunky approach that is a pain for professional use on a daily basis. Plus, those x86 apps won't be native which is no good for critical testing.

Apple decided to make this change, for the good of their customers or not. As Mac users, we have to just accept that this is the way it is now – Apple is now a fully proprietary platform and it's probably only a matter of time before even Mac programs can only be installed via an App Store.
What Apple is doing is intergrating Macs, iPad, and iPhone into a true universal system. Reminds me of the European Union Mantra:"for an ever closer union..". What you do on one can immediately be used on another. Great idea, and I'm for it. Since I picked up my Mac Book Pro 7 months ago, it's nice doing i Message via laptop, answering phone calls via laptop, ect. And I still enjoy using Win 10 on occasion via an older Lenovo Yoga3 laptop(with touchscreen). It's also nice that I have that option on my Mac. Hopefully the M1(and beyond) Macs allow Windows and other OS's to run natively. Otherwise it's just an iPad with a keyboard...
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,142
1,899
Anchorage, AK
I see that you will be able to game on the M1 Mac with Wine ,but it seems a hit and miss thing at present.s
. I like this guys videos .
:)

You can game on the M1 without Wine. I use Steam Play to play games on my Mac that don't even have Mac OS versions, including Final Fantasy XV Windows Edition. Granted, you need to already have a Windows-based PC to do that, but there is minimal latency and gameplay is smooth. The best part is that because the gaming machine is actually doing the work, battery life remains extremely long on the M1.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,142
1,899
Anchorage, AK
That ?? is ?? not ??true
Craig Federighi literally said Apple Silicon can run Windows natively provided Microsoft licences it.
Running natively = Boot Camp, not virtualisation.

Actually, he said that virtualization was the path going forward, not direct booting (which is how Boot Camp works).
 
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RfkGaming

macrumors newbie
Jan 12, 2021
3
3
Nope I have windows on my desktop for gaming and web usage when I'm home when I'm travling I will use MacOS. I mostly home and away 50/50 so it works out where I'm using both a lot.
 

UBS28

macrumors 68030
Oct 2, 2012
2,893
2,340
Ha my thoughts exactly but that's exactly what a lot of Windows users have been trying to do over several years, which is stupid IMO.

Why is it stupid to have a Mac that can run both? It is stupid to have to buy a dedicated Mac + a dedicated PC as my Mac’s are able to do both.

Now maybe in the future, I will have to buy a dedicated PC if the Intel Mac’s need to be replaced.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,449
Why is it stupid to have a Mac that can run both?

I don't think it was stupid with Intel Macs that were a firmware patch away from being PC clones anyway. BootCamp was a relatively simple fix for Apple - mostly just a drag'n'drool wizard for what could be done manually by a self-respecting geek, and wasn't detrimental to MacOS.

What would be stupid would be to lumber the Mac/MacOS world with a requirement to be forever locked to x86 just so a minority of users could boot Windows (and once you've discounted everybody who will be adequately served by Crossover, emulation, Windows-in-the-cloud and probably virtualised Windows-on-ARM, unless MS deliberately throw a spanner in the works, plus all those who were a whisker away from buying a PC anyhow, its gonna be a minority).

You can't have the benefits of Apple Silicon and native x86 Windows - pick one... and while direct-booted Windows-on-ARM is technically not impossible (if Apple helps with M1 drivers) what performance users really need at the moment is x86 Windows - large-scale uptake of Windows-on-ARM is still a very big maybe (although, ironically, Apple may have increased its chances - the M1 adds a lot of credibility to non-Intel processors).

Also, although I'm not calling it "stupid", I'm still not sure why someone spending 50% of their time booted into Windows wouldn't just switch to Windows and done with it. Heck, I prefer MacOS but not enough to put up with continually re-booting and working around mutually incompatible disc formats... and if the Windows software you're using is demanding, it will probably run far better with the extra bangs-per-buck and GPU choice that you get with a regular PC. If it's not demanding, then the other solutions are a lot more convenient as they let you run your Windows app alongside your MacOS work. I guess you'd have to be doing something like Professional 3D CAD by day, Doctor DJ MC Logic Man by night... but even then people can and do do professional music production on PC (...plus that sounds like a case for two computers, unless you want to explain to the boss why the laptop containing that urgent CAD project ended up in the trunk of a car currently sitting in a hotel swimming pool :))
 

spiderman0616

Suspended
Aug 1, 2010
5,670
7,499
Why is it stupid to have a Mac that can run both? It is stupid to have to buy a dedicated Mac + a dedicated PC as my Mac’s are able to do both.

Now maybe in the future, I will have to buy a dedicated PC if the Intel Mac’s need to be replaced.
And now iPadOS/iOS apps too. So if you have an M1 Mac, you can run all three ecosystems. It's a win/win/win. (Once iOS app support gets better on macOS).
 
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Roxy.music

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 9, 2019
862
90
uk
Why is it stupid to have a Mac that can run both? It is stupid to have to buy a dedicated Mac + a dedicated PC as my Mac’s are able to do both.

Now maybe in the future, I will have to buy a dedicated PC if the Intel Mac’s need to be replaced.
What do you use to back up your Windows?
I have Winclone but the times i have tried to do a backup it says the block size is wrong?
That was sometime age .I have got a external drive with Windows on it i have not tried Winclone on it yet but not holding my breath to see if that works. Acronis True Image i don,t know whether i will be able to get a bootable backup with it.We will have no choice in the future to get a M1 Mac ,certainly the Mac Mini would be enough for me,
i would like to get a 16gb modal but there a lot more expensive than the 8gb modal. :(

 

Maconplasma

Cancelled
Sep 15, 2020
2,489
2,215
Why is it stupid to have a Mac that can run both? It is stupid to have to buy a dedicated Mac + a dedicated PC as my Mac’s are able to do both.

Now maybe in the future, I will have to buy a dedicated PC if the Intel Mac’s need to be replaced.
I hope you realize it wasn't always that Macs could run Windows? This started back in 2006.
Before then people had to buy two computers. And since when is it uncommon to have multiple computers? Heck people buy 2-3 monitors for one laptop. Also please read the thread next time, the OP was referring to running Windows ONLY on his Mac. This is not about VM's. And it is absolutely stupid to buy a Mac to only run Windows. It's not a Windows machine and it's not designed to be a Windows machine.
 
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Roxy.music

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 9, 2019
862
90
uk
I sent an email to Craig Federighi, and he actually replied pretty fast.
1. The Boot Camp Assistant being on M1 Macs is an "artifact" due to the fact that there is a single image for both ARM and Intel Macs.​
2. He reiterated there is the great Apple Hypervisor framework available.​
So y'all were right: Boot Camp is 100% dead.
It is not dead for me for the time being. anyway
 
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Roxy.music

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 9, 2019
862
90
uk

Intel fights back ,all though they have a long way to go​

Intel Hybrid Alder Lake CPU - This is WAR​

. and a look at the new Mac,s touch bar ditched 6 this guy is good, :) Would you like a touch screen Mac?
 
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