Yep, it’s crazy. I am big into phones, and I had never heard of pwm before I got my Xs max. I had half a dozen android phones with oled all the way back to the galaxy s4 and had never had any issues at all. At first I was freaking out. That’s actually why I started posting a lot on here after googling my issue. I recall you were one of the #1 contributors on here when it came to pwm on the X. I honestly think the 8+ screen looks fine. If they could completely eliminate the bezels and update the chip, I would happily take it even in 1080p. I don’t watch videos on here, so I don’t need oled.
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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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For me, the issue build up progressively the longer I use the device. So I could look at the iPhone X for a few minutes and be okay but that didn't true the following day as it felt like my eyes were being harmed. Same thing happened with me with XR a year or so later. I don't think I am going to risk any more FaceID devices.Sorry to hear that.. Does it bother both eyes pretty evenly, and is it something where you know right away- within a few minutes- if a particular phone is going to bother you?
I was just thinking out loud, if you would be able to buy one of the new 12 series and try it out for a few days to see if you are OK with it, before the 14 day return period is up. I'd heard someone once say that 14 days was not enough time to know, but I know for myself I would know within a day or two.
So far with taking lots of precautions, I seem to be okay with MacBook Air 2020 - typing on it now. I do use Nightshift often to the max all day. I received my iPad Air 4 yesterday so we shall see.
Wow! There seems to be quite a few of us that have found that even the XR and 11 don't work for us. I believe there is a XR thread like this one.
Which MacBook Air did you have?
Apple is very aware of these issues from the conversations I had with them a few years ago. Yes, it is likely a very small percentage affected....likely a decimal point percentage and rounding error to Apple.
Not to sound too Apple fanboy but I just cannot use other manufacturer's products. Apple hardware, software and the ecosystem is just too good for me and my family's usage. Thus I return to this thread every so often to see if Apple has anything else I could try. Probably buying an iPhone SE today based on some recent comments in this thread.
The ironic part is that I had been waiting for Apple to add an OLED display to the iPhone for years. It was my top feature request, along with the bezel-less design.
I had used other devices with OLED displays without issue (Apple Watch, PlayStation Vita) so I assumed it was due to the FaceID sensors until I looked further into it and found out that PWM even existed and could cause chronic headaches for a sensitive few.
Nice, good luck with the Macbook 😁
Yeah, same here. Nothing against Android or Windows, but Apple is just too perfect for my setup.
Hi guys! Unfortunately, I have to pass on some negative news, as some of you may find it useful.
Today the start of sales of 12 Pro Max and 12 Mini began, demo samples appeared in stores, and I measured them with the same device. Results below:
Brightness level - pulsation coefficient (may be better translation from Russian is flicker index)
Iphone 12 Pro Max:
1. 100% - 6.5%
2. 75% - 7.4%
3. 50% - 8.9%
4. 25% - 58.1%
5. 0% - 31.3%
Iphone 12 Mini:
1. 100% - 7.1%
2. 75% - 7.8%
3. 50% - 9.1%
4. 25% - 42.1%
5. 0% - 27.8%
I do not know what the reason is, that the supplier of these screens is not LG, but Samsung or BOE, or something else, for a fact there is a fact - at brightness levels below 50% Max and Mini flicker much more than 12 and 12 Pro. The only positive is that their flicker at these brightness levels is still less than the XS Max, so I still hope some of you are okay with these phones. I originally planned to buy the Max, but now it seems I will only consider the 12 Pro.
Please share your experience if someone buys Max or Mini.
Today the start of sales of 12 Pro Max and 12 Mini began, demo samples appeared in stores, and I measured them with the same device. Results below:
Brightness level - pulsation coefficient (may be better translation from Russian is flicker index)
Iphone 12 Pro Max:
1. 100% - 6.5%
2. 75% - 7.4%
3. 50% - 8.9%
4. 25% - 58.1%
5. 0% - 31.3%
Iphone 12 Mini:
1. 100% - 7.1%
2. 75% - 7.8%
3. 50% - 9.1%
4. 25% - 42.1%
5. 0% - 27.8%
I do not know what the reason is, that the supplier of these screens is not LG, but Samsung or BOE, or something else, for a fact there is a fact - at brightness levels below 50% Max and Mini flicker much more than 12 and 12 Pro. The only positive is that their flicker at these brightness levels is still less than the XS Max, so I still hope some of you are okay with these phones. I originally planned to buy the Max, but now it seems I will only consider the 12 Pro.
Please share your experience if someone buys Max or Mini.
Ugh, not what I wanted to hear as I anticipate the arrival of my Mini today!
Good news is that 50%- 75% still looks low..... maybe some combination of 50% or 75% brightness with some reduce whitepoint might keep the flicker down to a low enough level for most of us not to be affected?
Yes, only one device.Oh no.
I was looking forward to get petter results with the mini.
Sad news. Did you test only one device?
I have previously measured several 12 Pros to see if there is any difference between different devices of the same model. They all showed approximately equal results.
Reducing the white point also increases flicker. In any case, you can try, if the return policy allows you to return the purchase, then you can safely test it at home in different modes for a sufficient time, maybe a small screen will not have such a big negative effect from PWM.
Feels like a few minutes with the 12 Pro Max, I felt the same way as it does with the XS Max. Buying myself a headache for a 1500$ isn't a good idea.) With the 12 Pro it is not entirely clear, there seems to be no such pronounced negative effect, but at the same time it feels like it is not as comfortable as the 8 Plus. Here in Moscow, mobile phones are not subject to a return policy, so if I still can't use the 12 Pro, I'll have to sell it myself with a 15-20% discount.
Sorry to hear about that- with the lack of the ability to return for full refund, I would be concerned, too, about that rather expensive gamble when buying one of these!
I have a Mini arriving today. I had trouble with the XS two years ago when I had purchased it (and ultimately returned it), so I will see how it goes this time around. I am hopeful that I can adjust brightness to a "sweet spot" and that the smaller display will not bother me much.
Fortunately I ordered directly from Apple- and here in the US I can return to Apple for a full refund within 14 days if I am not happy with it. I still do not like doing that, but at least it gives me the option to try it out. I am really hopeful it will not bother, the Mini is the size I had been waiting for!
That’s unlucky to hear! Here in my country we have 14 days to return some products.
Since 12 was very harmful to my eyes and your results were even worse with 12 Mini, should I just skip further tests? I’d love to enjoy a new iPhone in small factor so much but looks like I’m (we are) doomed
For those who might find that the 12 Mini is not going to work, and you really want the small form factor- what option will you go back to? Will anyone be considering the SE 2020?
It is frustrating, but I am already considering the options as I await the delivery of my Mini today- as I am concerned that the flicker will bother my eyes (as I had trouble 2 years ago when attempting to switch to the XS). Even my regular 11 (not Pro, so no OLED/no PWM) bothers my eyes at times, not sure why- I think it may be the bigger display. I never had trouble on LCD phones until going to the larger display sizes, I had zero problems with my 6s and 7 that I had back in the day.....
Fingers crossed the mini won't cause any problems- but if it does, I am not sure if I will do sort of a "downgrade" from my 11 to an SE2020, or just stick with the big, bulky 11.
What I do know is if the Mini is problematic, I will no longer attempt buying OLED phones.
Yes, we can also return most of the goods within 14 days, but this does not apply to "technically complex goods", which include phones.
In my opinion, if there is an opportunity to try it, it is better to use it. It may turn out that everything will be all right, and it will be a great success, but if not, then in fact you will lose almost nothing, only some time for ordering and for returning.
I already skipped this year SE since it doesn’t appeal me that much. It’s a good phone and an obvious improvement from my old SE but, what I’ve been waiting for almost 3 years, was a 2016 SE size but full screen with good camera set. And that’s what 12 mini is about!
Regarding 11 causing you eye strain: maybe this sickness is something that builds up with time, like a degenerative stuff that slowly harms your sight to the point that it enables theorically non harmful screens to damage your eyes due to increased sensitivity. Also the bigger screen and the sheer amount of light towards your eyes could be another reason
That’s nasty! What are you going to do?
I scheduled a session for tomorrow in an Apple shop so I might attend and test it again, and hope for a better responde due to smaller screen, but I think I’m out of luck TBH
On your last comment, that is something I had thought about. For me though, I had only used an OLED phone for two weeks, and that was two years ago. And it did take almost a month to get past eye strain that I had left over, which was bothering me once I moved on to my "new" LCD phone that I moved to at that time- the 8+. After that month or so, I had no more problems with that display.
I switched to the 11 last year, and started having trouble- it boggled my mind since this phone has no PWM. After a month or so, I didn't have any more problems, but every once in a while I will have a few days where looking at it causes some pain.... but that may just be totally unrelated temporary eye issues.
Don’t forget, you guys have until 1/8/21 to test the Mini and Max thanks to the holiday return policy (at least in the US, other countries may have different dates)
www.macrumors.com
Good luck, hope you guys can use the new devices!
(at least in the US, other countries may have different dates)
Apple Launches Extended Holiday Return Policy, Returns Accepted Until January 8 in U.S.
Apple today updated its Returns Policy for the holiday period, extending the time in which holiday gifts and purchases can be returned in the United...
www.macrumors.com
Good luck, hope you guys can use the new devices!
Wow a whole month! And I was a bit scared that I wasn’t recovering in 3 or 4 days... I’ve thought about getting some eye drops to heal faster
Well to be fair, my eyes are a bit finicky where I seem to have an adjustment period to any new screen. I remember many years ago I got a new laptop- and that screen bothered me for a week or so until I adjusted and was fine.
So what happened with the phones could have been a combination of recovering from the affects of the PWM on the Xs, and then my eyes adjusting to the new display on the new 8+. Hard to say, it is frustrating. lol
And that adjustment period I mentioned was probably the situation with my 11 as well for that first month, but hard to say as occasionally those symptoms come back- again that brings me to my theory about the larger display, just having too much light shining in my face vs the older 4.7" screens on the smaller phones that never bothered me.
For that reason, I am almost considering as a backup plan- if the Mini doesn't work out, maybe moving to the SE2020 to get back to that size which worked so well for me in the past, without having to give up the processing power that the 11 has.
Maybe it’s a multi factorial combination.
Every time I stare at my GFs 6,5” LCD screen it hurts after a while even if I turn brightness down. Maybe I could get used to, since my 4” screen is, well, small.
As I said, new SE is a good phone but not enough to substitute mine, I guess. Feels like a side grade, more than an upgrade.
Thanks a lot for this information! I went to Apple's website and saw that they have their own return policy, which allows the return of the Iphone even without giving a reason within 14 days, as long as it was bought directly from the Apple Online Store.
That is, I also have a free try using 12 or 12 Pro, which I will of course use. Thanks again!
Yep, same concern I have about moving to it from my 11.... I just hate the bulk, and as we discussed, that large screen. Depending on how it goes with the Mini here in the next couple of days, I might consider the SE2020, though.... to me that size was perfect (I never got a chance to use the SE1 or the previous iPhones, I was a late adopter at the time the 6s came out). Add to it, I prefer touchID to faceID.... so it seems an attractive "side grade" if the Mini does not work out.
So you talk about a 4" screen- I assume you have the SE 1. Any issues at all with the size on it- reading text, etc?
Well, I just received my 12 Mini after upgrading from an iPhone 7. Right away I can tell something wasn't right. My eyes were straining and I have a slight headache. I was thinking it was the larger screen after looking at my 7 for so long. Ugh...I hope this isn't going to be an ongoing issue.
How does the 12 Mini compare to the regular 12 & 12 Pro?
How does the 12 Mini compare to the regular 12 & 12 Pro?