Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[jimmy_uk]

I'm done with Apple OLED. Both 12PM and 12 have been returned to store today. The staff were like "PWM? Eye strain? Never heard that before?" My eye muscles are sore today and I'm struggling to focus on my iMac screen plus I still have a mild headache. Felt really rough last night. Never again Apple!

So today I'm a little richer.....money burning a hole in my pocket.
Back once again to the lower feature options of considering an SE and iPad Mini combo. Don't see any 8 Plus refurbs on the Apple store anymore. I'll also do some research on best flagship LCD options from the Android camp - why should I stick ith Apple now kind of sulk! Its really taken the shine off owning an Apple product when I cannot use of the new flagship hardware from the last three years. It's been a long, long road of disappointment. Gaa.....😩

 

[jm31828]

I'm done with Apple OLED. Both 12PM and 12 have been returned to store today. The staff were like "PWM? Eye strain? Never heard that before?" My eye muscles are sore today are struggling to focus on my iMac screen plus I still have a mild headache. Felt really rough last night. Never again Apple!

So today I'm a little richer.....money burning a hole in my pocket.
Back once again to the lower feature options of considering an SE and iPad Mini combo. I'll also do some research best flagship LCD options from the Android camp. Its really taken the shine off owning an Apple product when I cannot use of the new flagship hardware from the last three years. It's been a long, long road of disappointment. Gaa.....😩

Sorry to hear that!

Did your symptoms begin right away when using the 12 and 12PM, or did it take a few days on each to start feeling symptoms?

 

[jimmy_uk]

Sorry to hear that!

Did your symptoms begin right away when using the 12 and 12PM, or did it take a few days on each to start feeling symptoms?

I could feel the side of eyes (so my eye muscle I think) a little when using the 12PM out of the box but no instant headache like previous years. I did have a very mild headache ( figured I was just tired and overslept) the next day and decided the PM was too big and heavy anyway so got a 12. The 12 definitely annoyed my eyes more as it felt like a light was being shined into my eyes. It made me feel a little queasy. Switching between the 2 the 12PM felt easier on my eyes but I think this was down to the screen being duller and more yellow. I think the strain on my eyes became too much so it gave me a full-on headache.

The short time I felt like I could keep this years iPhone was so sweet - the screen quality is amazing when watching videos etc. The build up to the launch then the wait for pre-order was hard enough but I've been trying to get a new iPhone since the X. To end up feeling unwell once again is crushing but health is very important and there's no way I'm going to try and persevere. If anything its making me re-evaluate my whole love of tech and what I want vs what I need. Gonna have to stop buying into the top end, bleeding edge - the "shiny shiny"!

See you next year.......🤦‍♂️

 

[Roadstar]

Back once again to the lower feature options of considering an SE and iPad Mini combo. Don't see any 8 Plus refurbs on the Apple store anymore. I'll also do some research on best flagship LCD options from the Android camp - why should I stick ith Apple now kind of sulk! Its really taken the shine off owning an Apple product when I cannot use of the new flagship hardware from the last three years. It's been a long, long road of disappointment. Gaa.....

I know the feeling. While my Apple Watch S6 is an awesome device, it’s rather annoying that I can pair it only with the 2020 SE. While the SE isn’t a bad device, I’d still like more flagship features and more modern cameras for my phone. Unfortunately LCD options in the Android world seem to be reserved for more budget devices, so I’ve been toying around with the idea of getting a OnePlus 8T. While there are reasons I’d like to steer away from OnePlus once again, I’d also like to thank them for offering an OLED display that should be OK for most of us. For after all, the PWM frequency is 458hz compared to Apple’s ~240hz and they’ve apparently implemented some kind of DC Dimming 2.0 on the display itself, negating the need for the previous experimental software feature.

It’s more than a bummer that OnePlus can offer OLEDs that don’t try to kill the more sensitive part of their usebase for half or 2/3 of the price Apple demands for their devices.

 

[jm31828]

I could feel the side of eyes (so my eye muscle I think) a little when using the 12PM out of the box but no instant headache like previous years. I did have a very mild headache the next day and decided the PM was too big and heavy anyway so got a 12. The 12 definitely annoyed my eyes more as it felt like a light was being shined into my eyes. It made me feel a little queasy. Switching between the 2 the 12PM felt easier on my eyes but I think this was down to the screen being duller and more yellow. I think the strain on my eyes became too much so it gave me a full-on headache.

The short time I felt like I could keep this years iPhone was so sweet - the screen quality is amazing when watching videos etc. So to end up feeling unwell is crushing but health is very important and there's no way I'm going to try and persevere. If anything its making me re-evaluate my whole love of tech and what I need vs what I want.

Ah, so the effects were noticeable almost immediately.... really disappointing when looking forward to these new devices I imagine. .

 

[1369281]

It makes me cringe when I see people in this thread (who are educated about the issue) trying to struggle through the effects of PWM caused by Apple’s OLED iPhones.

Reminds me of a battered spouse: “He only hit me a little bit. It didn’t hurt that much.”

It’s completely unacceptable to me. Don’t compromise.

 

[jimmy_uk]

I know the feeling. While my Apple Watch S6 is an awesome device, it’s rather annoying that I can pair it only with the 2020 SE. While the SE isn’t a bad device, I’d still like more flagship features and more modern cameras for my phone. Unfortunately LCD options in the Android world seem to be reserved for more budget devices, so I’ve been toying around with the idea of getting a OnePlus 8T. While there are reasons I’d like to steer away from OnePlus once again, I’d also like to thank them for offering an OLED display that should be OK for most of us. For after all, the PWM frequency is 458hz compared to Apple’s ~240hz and they’ve apparently implemented some kind of DC Dimming 2.0 on the display itself, negating the need for the previous experimental software feature.

It’s more than a bummer that OnePlus can offer OLEDs that don’t try to kill the more sensitive part of their usebase for half or 2/3 of the price Apple demands for their devices.

​

Xiaomi are still in the LCD game. I need to spend some more time looking into what they offer.


https://www.androidauthority.com/xiaomi-mi-10t-series-lcd-oled-1170348/

• A Xiaomi executive has explained why it opted for LCD tech on the Mi 10T series.
• The representative reckons that a great LCD screen is better than a lower quality OLED panel.
• They also asserted that OLED panels can cause eye strain.

“There are issues with AMOLED and certain peoples’ eyes — I think it’s like 10% of the population when looking at an AMOLED display, experience very heavy eye strain,” added Hoang Desjarlais.

“It is better to have a high-quality LCD, the best of the best LCD, versus a middling sort of AMOLED,” Xiaomi product marketing manager Daniel Hoang Desjarlais was quoted as saying.

 

[jm31828]

It makes me cringe when I see people in this thread (who are educated about the issue) trying to struggle through the effects of PWM caused by Apple’s OLED iPhones.

Reminds me of a battered spouse: “He only hit me a little bit. It didn’t hurt that much.”

It’s completely unacceptable to me. Don’t compromise.

haha- quite the comparison there, but in some ways true.
The hard part for some of us is knowing for sure if we have issues. I for example think I had issues with my only other OLED phone in the past- the XS 2 years ago- that I returned 2 weeks later. I was going through bouts of eye strain and headaches at the time that I think may have been caused by that phone- but did last for about a month into trading for an 8+ at that time, so who knows.

Now- I as of about a week ago have been going through bouts of that again, I think because of the enormous amounts of screen time I have, working 12 hour days staring at a computer screen.

I got my Mini on Friday and have not really noticed NEW symptoms on top of what I have been feeling since several days before I got the mini, aside from maybe dry/warm eyes when looking at the Mini.

To add to it, I go through an adjustment period with my eyes on any new phone display- even when just getting a new LCD model. So I need to see how it goes for a few weeks before determining if PWM on the mini is really bothering me or not.

Just in case, though- I am not selling my 11 yet- will hang onto it until deciding FOR SURE on the Mini.

Part of me though, even if I determine I am not really getting new eye strain or headaches from the mini- does not feel terribly comfortable knowing that this screen is strobing at my eyes when I look at it vs the totally safe LCD on my 11 and on phones I have had in the past. What kind of an effect might that be having on me without immediately knowing it?

 

[Roadstar]

​

Xiaomi are still in the LCD game. I need to spend some more time looking into what they offer.


https://www.androidauthority.com/xiaomi-mi-10t-series-lcd-oled-1170348/

• A Xiaomi executive has explained why it opted for LCD tech on the Mi 10T series.
• The representative reckons that a great LCD screen is better than a lower quality OLED panel.
• They also asserted that OLED panels can cause eye strain.

“There are issues with AMOLED and certain peoples’ eyes — I think it’s like 10% of the population when looking at an AMOLED display, experience very heavy eye strain,” added Hoang Desjarlais.

“It is better to have a high-quality LCD, the best of the best LCD, versus a middling sort of AMOLED,” Xiaomi product marketing manager Daniel Hoang Desjarlais was quoted as saying.

Ah, I forgot about Xiaomi as I can’t see myself getting a MIUI device anytime soon. I’m already worried about OxygenOS drifting further away from stock Android, so I’ll need to get a bit more desperate for an LCD before I’m willing to risk it with a more heavily customized Chinese variant. Never say never, though.

EDIT: OK, the probability just went up quite a bit after reading that Desjarlains statement you added there

I guess it’s just fitting for 2020 that multiple Chinese companies are trying to do something about an issue that makes a minority userbase suffer while Apple, Google, and Samsung can’t be arsed to act unless you talk about raising the prices yet again.

 

[karinatwork]

This all blows bits. I was on the phone all day yesterday with various Apple customer service reps and made a point of telling them about PWM and that I am not returning the phone because I don't like it (I love it, in fact) but because it gives me HEADACHES. Btw, I stopped using the phone on Sunday and I am still experiencing slight discomfort. It will take a couple of days to calm down. When talking to the employees at Apple I felt like one of those people with a tinfoil hat, a conspiracy theorist, the ones who tell you that Wifi is going to kill you and 5G is giving you brain tumors and vaccines are injecting microchips. It's an uphill battle, but my hope (and I said that before) is that since this year the "standard" phone has an OLED screen for the first time, more people will be affected, and more people being affected may finally get them to address this!

 

[Roadstar]

It's an uphill battle, but my hope (and I said that before) is that since this year the "standard" phone has an OLED screen for the first time, more people will be affected, and more people being affected may finally get them to address this!

That's a good point, but if it took them this long to figure out their OLEDs are problematic for a part of the user base, it might take them another year to make adjustments. It could already be too late to make any major changes to iPhone 13 designs.

 

[jm31828]

That's a good point, but if it took them this long to figure out their OLEDs are problematic for a part of the user base, it might take them another year to make adjustments. It could already be too late to make any major changes to iPhone 13 designs.

Have they really even figured out that their OLEDs are problematic for part of the user base- have they ever acknowledged this or shown they were doing anything about it? The fact that the 12 series has no better flicker frequency than previous models seems to show that they do not care, that those who are sensitive are such a small minority that it doesn't matter.

 

[Roadstar]

Have they really even figured out that their OLEDs are problematic for part of the user base- have they ever acknowledged this or shown they were doing anything about it? The fact that the 12 series has no better flicker frequency than previous models seems to show that they do not care, that those who are sensitive are such a small minority that it doesn't matter.

I don’t think they have, but I was pondering a scenario where the all-OLED lineup would bring up more PWM sensitivity cases and force Apple to do something about it. However, even in that scenario it’s most likely too late to see any course corrections take place in the 13 series.

 

[TDDM]

It makes me cringe when I see people in this thread (who are educated about the issue) trying to struggle through the effects of PWM caused by Apple’s OLED iPhones.

Reminds me of a battered spouse: “He only hit me a little bit. It didn’t hurt that much.”

It’s completely unacceptable to me. Don’t compromise.

But have you *seen* the new design?

This all blows bits. I was on the phone all day yesterday with various Apple customer service reps and made a point of telling them about PWM and that I am not returning the phone because I don't like it (I love it, in fact) but because it gives me HEADACHES. Btw, I stopped using the phone on Sunday and I am still experiencing slight discomfort. It will take a couple of days to calm down. When talking to the employees at Apple I felt like one of those people with a tinfoil hat, a conspiracy theorist, the ones who tell you that Wifi is going to kill you and 5G is giving you brain tumors and vaccines are injecting microchips. It's an uphill battle, but my hope (and I said that before) is that since this year the "standard" phone has an OLED screen for the first time, more people will be affected, and more people being affected may finally get them to address this!

Yup, I’ve dealt with the same thing when calling, the reps had absolutely zero idea what I was talking about. One time, I was actually able to get to a higher up and she had the same issue without knowing what it was, so I didn’t sound too crazy explaining it 😝

Re: the last point about more people being affected, I definitely agree. I’m hoping to see some mainstream attention on this that would lead to further improvements next year.

 

[jm31828]

I don’t think they have, but I was pondering a scenario where the all-OLED lineup would bring up more PWM sensitivity cases and force Apple to do something about it. However, even in that scenario it’s most likely too late to see any course corrections take place in the 13 series.

Yeah, I agree with you- very hopeful that now that we are all in on OLED (minus the SE line I imagine), that things will slowly change. Let's hope! I really do not want to jump out of the Apple ecosystem, I really like these devices for so many reasons.... sure people talk about the OnePlus and how they have implemented DC dimming so PWM is not an issue- but beyond the look and feel of the device itself, I still have zero interest in moving to Android.

 

[jimmy_uk]

This all blows bits. I was on the phone all day yesterday with various Apple customer service reps and made a point of telling them about PWM and that I am not returning the phone because I don't like it (I love it, in fact) but because it gives me HEADACHES. Btw, I stopped using the phone on Sunday and I am still experiencing slight discomfort. It will take a couple of days to calm down. When talking to the employees at Apple I felt like one of those people with a tinfoil hat, a conspiracy theorist, the ones who tell you that Wifi is going to kill you and 5G is giving you brain tumors and vaccines are injecting microchips. It's an uphill battle, but my hope (and I said that before) is that since this year the "standard" phone has an OLED screen for the first time, more people will be affected, and more people being affected may finally get them to address this!

Despite me talking at length to the Apple staff member about the issues I had, when it came to filling in the return form they picked "buyers remorse" as reason for return. I laughed out loud.

 

[tonybarnaby]

I'm done with Apple OLED. Both 12PM and 12 have been returned to store today. The staff were like "PWM? Eye strain? Never heard that before?" My eye muscles are sore today and I'm struggling to focus on my iMac screen plus I still have a mild headache. Felt really rough last night. Never again Apple!

So today I'm a little richer.....money burning a hole in my pocket.
Back once again to the lower feature options of considering an SE and iPad Mini combo. Don't see any 8 Plus refurbs on the Apple store anymore. I'll also do some research on best flagship LCD options from the Android camp - why should I stick ith Apple now kind of sulk! Its really taken the shine off owning an Apple product when I cannot use of the new flagship hardware from the last three years. It's been a long, long road of disappointment. Gaa.....😩

Any thought on the SE plus an Apple battery case? That’s the only legit option in my mind. I have an 8+ which is nice (you came from a 7+ so you know) but the 8+ is over 3 years old. The se 2020 has a fast processor, it just lacks battery. Apple battery case solves that, even if it’s smaller than I would like.

 

[karinatwork]

I laughed out loud.

At least you can still laugh about it.

 

[MICHAELSD]

The demo iPhones used in Apple Stores as well as Apple Authorized Resellers (i.e. Best Buy, carrier stores, etc) are the same units that are sold to customers. The only difference is the software loaded onto the devices which renders them inoperable if someone were to steal it. In the situation demo models are stolen - which occur all the time - they end up pulling from sellable inventory to replace the units.

Others have theorized that iPhones using different panels as some of the retail demos didn't seem to flicker whereas others did - which is within the realm of possibility. This is Apple we're talking about. I remember customers hitting up Apple Stores back in the day because they wanted the MacBook Pro with the Samsung display rather than the LG display (due to whatever the reason was).

As far as I remember, the LG and Samsung panels on MacBook Pro varied in quality: one was objectively better than the other.

If a PWM-free display that fits iPhone 12 exists then I don’t see why it would be used in demo units when it’s not in the retail version, so it’s more likely to be controlled by software.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Any thought on the SE plus an Apple battery case? That’s the only legit option in my mind. I have an 8+ which is nice (you came from a 7+ so you know) but the 8+ is over 3 years old. The se 2020 has a fast processor, it just lacks battery. Apple battery case solves that, even if it’s smaller than I would like.

It would seem this is my only road with Apple this year. Can't say I'm pleased with the option. If coupled with an ipad, mini or Pro 11" then maybe....but for the rest of this week I'm gonna bitch and moan!

 

[Samut]

Did you see this post on Macrumors?

iPhone 12 is flicker free(DC dimming)!

I went to the Apple store and test the PWM flicker of iPhone 12/Pro simply with camera. No flicker is detected at all brightness level on both 12 and 12 pro. But it’s very weird that the minimum brightness of 12 is much higher than 11/11 pro. It seems that Apple limited the minimum brightness of...

forums.macrumors.com

I attach a photo from that discussion. Here are demo iPhone 12 "Not for sale" from App Store and usual iPhone 11 from owner. For both iPhones is set 0% brightness. Do you see very hight "zero" brightness on iPhone 12 on left side? Of course, iPhone 12 doesn't show high pulsations in this special mode.
In fact, Apple used DC Dimming for demo iPhone 12 in the App Store. It's dishonest, because you may think that it doesn't flicker. So you need to check a real iPhone 12 from owners or from another independed shop. And compare zero brightness with your own iPhone to make sure that it doesn't use any tricks with brightness.

Excerpt below is taken from another forum. I suppose this might mean that in theory you could put iPhone into "store" or "demo" mode to try it out.

POSTED: 11/21/18
OPTIONS
Apple provides a special iTunes backup for every device. The backups contain the demo video screensaver, some demo apps and some settings are also restricted (such as changing the device name).
https://asw.apple.com (you must have an account to be able to access this portal)

 

[Roadstar]

Based upon the photos, I 100% agree that its software/firmware controlling PWM/DC Dimming on the demo units. Apple would gain a lot of good faith if they allowed everyone the ability to switch between the two - but based upon how stubborn they are and how they want to maintain quality, I don't think it's ever going to happen.

That would be such an Apple move. ”Oh we know some users are getting major headaches from our phones and we actually have a solution right here. However, we sure can’t bury this option deep into the accessibility settings of an ordinary uncontrolled muggle phone, let’s save that for our demo units instead. For after all, allowing such an option out in the wild could result in scenarios where some of the colors on the display could be off enough to notice. I know, sounds unimaginably horrible, we can’t have that. Think about the damage our product image would take from such a sighting. It’s better that the sensitive users just remain good sports and enjoy their painkillers.”

 

[tonybarnaby]

Call me a cynic, but I’m not buying the fact apple can eliminate pwm on the demo models but not the retail ones. I am sure something is probably up, but I don’t think they have a “fix” that they’re keeping from us.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Call me a cynic, but I’m not buying the fact apple can eliminate pwm on the demo models but not the retail ones. I am sure something is probably up, but I don’t think they have a “fix” that they’re keeping from us.

Crazy theory: maybe they’re testing it on demo units to check if any degradation occurs to the display over time before releasing it as a software feature?

That’s really the only reason I could think of as to why they would only have it on select demo units.

 

[jm31828]

Crazy theory: maybe they’re testing it on demo units to check if any degradation occurs to the display over time before releasing it as a software feature?

That’s really the only reason I could think of as to why they would only have it on select demo units.

Could it even be possible just as a software feature without specific hardware in place to do this? Or are we considering that maybe the hardware was changed in the 12 series, and the software to drive it is just not made available in the user interface yet?

Maaaan, if that is the case I would be so happy- to be able to look forward to a software update in the next few months that would enable me to use true DC dimming and eliminate flicker. If that was the case, I would deal with the light eye issues the flicker is causing knowing a "fix". was on the way.