Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[jimmy_uk]

Agreed. I had the same thought last night: that at the end of the day it’s just a phone and it’s not worth compromising mental/physical health over it.

I still do think iPhone 12 Pro may do enough over the Max to be the most usable OLED iPhone to date, but I can’t confirm without testing it. That’s not to say it wouldn’t cause headaches, and I probably should wait until migraines aren’t even a consideration. I suppose I’m getting slightly impatient.

If it wasn’t for this issue I’d probably still be upgrading annually, and these past four generations of iPhone are by far the nicest Apple has ever made. Part of me wishes I had owned a gold iPhone XS and a Midnight Green iPhone 11 Pro, but there are people out there still rocking iPhone 4’s so I’m probably looking at it from the wrong perspective.


I’ve been considering the iPhone SE since I tried it in an Apple Store when it came out and it has the best LCD Apple’s ever shipped on an iPhone in terms of color/contrast (which Notebookcheck’s measurements back up).

I’m just trying to be mindful of returns since I’m not sure once I get my hands on one I’d want to trade my 8+ for it. I wouldn’t mind as much trying 2-3 different iPhones this year if I knew for a fact I’d be keeping one.


There are definitely variances between every model. While I’ve stayed away from OLED models even in store demos, I did notice that I was able to use an iPhone 11 Pro for a few seconds without getting the instant migraine I would on iPhone 11 Pro Max.

The higher PWM frequency on iPhone 12 Pro along with the 60Hz mode makes me want to try it, but I’m not sure the outcome would be any different. There are also other considerations beyond frequency such as amplitude, and iPhone 12 Pro seems to be the best in this regard as well.

I’m using iPhone 12 Pro Max to type this now and I notice fewer migraines the more I become accustomed to it so I’d probably keep it if it didn’t still cause migraines after use. It’s not as bad as iPhone X where I’d go to bed and still have a constant migraine, although I do find myself waking up with a migraine/headache. Migraines are still unavoidable for me with this display, even after staring at a notification for a second.

I don't think your going to be able to change how your eyes react. You are sensitive to the low PWM rates no matter how much you want the phone. I understand your desire to own this phone but facts is facts and a headache/migraine is an instability in the way the brain deals with incoming sensory information, which leads to a pain response = your body is trying to warning you.

 

[Six0Four]

Curious, where did you get those figures?

Notebookcheck

 

[Six0Four]

I don't think this outfit is very good at recording accurate readings as they been caught out misreading the rate for the 11 Pro but this info has been shared so many times its never been corrected.

But 100% agree these rates are very low and the reason it's a huge issue for those sensitive (and I'm starting to think more people are affected but don't know it's there phone/tablet/monitor which is the cause).

Notebookcheck ? Where were they called out, you have a link ? They do excellent work.

 

[now i see it]

I don't think your going to be able to change how your eyes react..

Agreed. People dont realize that subjecting your body (eyes and nervous system in this case) to harmful and toxic effects (staring at strobing pixels for hours) will usually create a sensitivity and future intolerance to it. What might be mildly painful now can develop into totally debilitating as the nervous system sensitizes to it. Just like paint solvent vapor and chemical sensitivity and intolerance will develop from extended use, so will eyeball and brain sensitivity from extended use of a strobing, irritating display.

There's nothing to love about any OLED crap iPhone that creates eyestrain and headaches. Only a lot to hate and fear.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Hi guys! Unfortunately, I have to pass on some negative news, as some of you may find it useful.

Today the start of sales of 12 Pro Max and 12 Mini began, demo samples appeared in stores, and I measured them with the same device. Results below:

Brightness level - pulsation coefficient (may be better translation from Russian is flicker index)

Iphone 12 Pro Max:
1. 100% - 6.5%
2. 75% - 7.4%
3. 50% - 8.9%
4. 25% - 58.1%
5. 0% - 31.3%

Iphone 12 Mini:
1. 100% - 7.1%
2. 75% - 7.8%
3. 50% - 9.1%
4. 25% - 42.1%
5. 0% - 27.8%

I do not know what the reason is, that the supplier of these screens is not LG, but Samsung or BOE, or something else, for a fact there is a fact - at brightness levels below 50% Max and Mini flicker much more than 12 and 12 Pro. The only positive is that their flicker at these brightness levels is still less than the XS Max, so I still hope some of you are okay with these phones. I originally planned to buy the Max, but now it seems I will only consider the 12 Pro.

Please share your experience if someone buys Max or Mini.

I’m surprised I missed doing this comparison: I had only compared 50-100% brightness levels to your iPhone 12 measurements and noticed that they were the same or better. The difference at lower brightnesses is relatively significant. I’d expect more consistency across the line.

iPhone 12 Pro is definitely the best option in terms of PWM. I’m not necessarily sure it’s worth trying at this point or that it’s enough to make it usable long-term, but it seems to minimize the effect more than any other OLED iPhone released to date.

Edit: VadimVW tested his retail iPhone 12 Pro and it had a significantly worse flicker coefficient than the store demo he had tested prior.

I have seen a few posts with different flicker measurements on the 12 Pro, which is quite confusing. Yesterday I received my 12 Pro, of course I measured it right away, the results were very unpleasantly surprised.

Brightness level - pulsation coefficient (flicker index)
1. 100 % -7.3 %
2. 75 % - 7.9 %
3. 50 % - 8.9 %
4. 25 % - 11.4 %
5. 20 % - 41.4 %
6. 10 % - 99.6 %
7. 0 % - 74.5 %

The pulsation coefficient starts to increase dramatically below 25% brightness and this is very different from what I measured in the store on the first day of sales.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/iphone-12-is-flicker-free-dc-dimming.2262673/
I even started to think that what was discussed in this topic may be true - that in stores, phones have different software settings and have a very high brightness, or dc-dimming is used.

I went to the store again and again measured the 12 and 12 Pro screens. The 12 Pro showed similar results as my phone, while the regular 12 still ranged from 6.9% to 9.36%.

What is the reason, I don't know, different screen providers, different software settings in stores or something else. For me, this year the story is over, because 12 Pro, even at brightness levels above 25%, causes all the same symptoms as previous OLED iPhones - literally in 30-40 minutes doing the settings, I got eye strain and a headache. For myself, I made a decision that while the device flickers more than 1%, I will not buy it. I'll take regular 11 and return 12 Pro.

Good luck guys, I hope that the advancement of technology will still allow us to use modern phones and not get stuck with our SE, 7, 8, 11. Maybe next year.

Below are some photos with regular 12 measurements in the store.
View attachment 1680083View attachment 1680094View attachment 1680095View attachment 1680096View attachment 1680098

 

[tonybarnaby]

I’m surprised I missed doing this comparison: I had only compared 50-100% brightness levels to your iPhone 12 measurements and noticed that they were the same or better. The difference at lower brightnesses is relatively significant. I’d expect more consistency across the line.

iPhone 12 Pro is definitely the best option in terms of PWM. I’m not necessarily sure it’s worth trying at this point or that it’s enough to make it usable long-term, but it seems to minimize the effect more than any other OLED iPhone released to date.

Edit: VadimVW tested his retail iPhone 12 Pro and it had a significantly worse flicker coefficient than the store demo he had tested prior.

How much is your time worth? You won’t lose any money due to apples return policy, but I’m afraid the writing is on the wall. You’re more than welcome to try, but the changes are SO minor that it just seems hopeless for people like us.

 

[MICHAELSD]

How much is your time worth? You won’t lose any money due to apples return policy, but I’m afraid the writing is on the wall. You’re more than welcome to try, but the changes are SO minor that it just seems hopeless for people like us.

I’m more or less concerned with limiting returns, especially since they ship a second package every time a trade-in is initiated.

The improvements on iPhone 12 Pro are probably minimal compared to iPhone 12 Pro Max. I just wished Notebookcheck did a comprehensive test of all four models since I find it difficult to believe that only iPhone 12 Pro has a sophisticated new PWM implementation.

 

[GlenK]

I am resigned to using the SE. The 2020 version is great and I love the size so it doesn't suck!! I read a new SE will come out in 2022 so that looks like my next new phone!!

 

[tonybarnaby]

I’m more or less concerned with limiting returns, especially since they ship a second package every time a trade-in is initiated.

The improvements on iPhone 12 Pro are probably minimal compared to iPhone 12 Pro Max. I just wished Notebookcheck did a comprehensive test of all four models since I find it difficult to believe that only iPhone 12 Pro has a sophisticated new PWM implementation.

Might as well order one. You seem like the kind of guy who will think about it excessively until you “know”. Good luck to you

 

[jimmy_uk]

Notebookcheck ? Where were they called out, you have a link ? They do excellent work.

Its already been mentioned a few times on the forum that the 290.7 reading was a writing error that hasn't been amended.

Link example - post 2838:
Eye-strain while using iPhone X
Yes I mentioned earlier in this thread that the original review was bogus as they misread their own graph. It clearly shows slower than 290hz if you measure it yourself, but they wrote the 290 anyway. Sloppy. Also this goes to show how much this issue is placebo induced that merely the...


The report also mentioned:

11 Pro Max:
"The display backlight flickers at 245.1 Hz (Likely utilizing PWM) Flickering detected at a brightness setting of 99 % and below. There should be no flickering or PWM above this brightness setting.

The frequency of 245.1 Hz is relatively low, so sensitive users will likely notice flickering and experience eyestrain at the stated brightness setting and below."

11 Pro:
"The panel in our review unit flickers at between 60 and 290.7 Hz, which is rather unusual. By contrast, most OLED panels flicker at one frequency."

🤷‍♂️

 

[Six0Four]

Its already been mentioned a few times on the forum that the 290.7 reading was a writing error that hasn't been amended.

Link example - post 2838:
Eye-strain while using iPhone X
Yes I mentioned earlier in this thread that the original review was bogus as they misread their own graph. It clearly shows slower than 290hz if you measure it yourself, but they wrote the 290 anyway. Sloppy. Also this goes to show how much this issue is placebo induced that merely the...


The report also mentioned:

11 Pro Max:
"The display backlight flickers at 245.1 Hz (Likely utilizing PWM) Flickering detected at a brightness setting of 99 % and below. There should be no flickering or PWM above this brightness setting.

The frequency of 245.1 Hz is relatively low, so sensitive users will likely notice flickering and experience eyestrain at the stated brightness setting and below."

11 Pro:
"The panel in our review unit flickers at between 60 and 290.7 Hz, which is rather unusual. By contrast, most OLED panels flicker at one frequency."

🤷‍♂️

It's 240 not 290.

Notebookcheck made a video testing it

 

[MICHAELSD]

I wanted to check how similar the 60Hz mode on iPhone 12 Pro is to DC dimming on other OLED devices per Notebookcheck’s claims, so I did further research.

This is the PWM curve on iPhone 12 Pro between 21-50% brightness:

Meanwhile this is Xiaomi’s 60Hz DC dimming implementation:

I remembered that iPhone X enters 60Hz flickering from 50-100% (which didn’t help) so I screenshoted that as well:

What does this mean? Just give us a DC dimming option so I can stop doing these stupid comparisons.

 

[I7guy]

Agreed. People dont realize that subjecting your body (eyes and nervous system in this case) to harmful and toxic effects (staring at strobing pixels for hours) will usually create a sensitivity and future intolerance to it. What might be mildly painful now can develop into totally debilitating as the nervous system sensitizes to it. Just like paint solvent vapor and chemical sensitivity and intolerance will develop from extended use, so will eyeball and brain sensitivity from extended use of a strobing, irritating display.

There's nothing to love about any OLED crap iPhone that creates eyestrain and headaches. Only a lot to hate and fear.

I love using my xs max and have used my sons' iphone 12. I have been diagnosed with ocular migraines and have very sensitive eyes to flickering. I can't go to movies because it makes my hyper-anxious.

I don't have any issue using iphones with oled panels, nor did I have any issues using iphones with lcd panels. However, I do think staring at screens (including tv sets) for hours is not good for our eyes in general. But I do love using my iphone xs max...the screens are the antithesis of crap.

 

[Roadstar]

What does this mean? Just give us a DC dimming option so I can stop doing these stupid comparisons.

DC Dimming would be awesome indeed, but knowing Apple I'm not holding my breath. For after all, they won't be having it on by default as it can distort colors in some circumstances and we all know how dearly Apple loves options and configurability.

The 2020 SE is the iPhone I use right now thanks to how well the Apple Watch S6 works with it. However, while the camera isn't a complete potato, it doesn't match up with more modern phone cameras so I'm currently experimenting with Android options. I'm typing this on a Samsung Galaxy S20 FE and while the phone is nice although maybe a bit on the large side, the Galaxy Watch Active 2 that I have paired with it isn't quite as nice as the Apple Watch. Some things it does better, but for night modes there are a couple of issues that have lead me to use my Apple Watch for the night and forward calls to the SE during that time. The display I'm OK with even though I was initially scared about its low PWM flicker rating on Notebookcheck, but apparently it's using PWM only when brightness is at 30% or lower. Above that it should be DC Dimming and now that I've made sure to keep the brightness well above the threshold, I haven't experienced eye strain with this one.

I also have a Pixel 5 that I got for its camera and clean Android. Its size is awesome, just a slight increase from the SE with a lot more screen real estate. The display flickers between 188 - 367.6 Hz and I did notice some initial eye strain, but it got better when I forced 90Hz refresh mode. For after all, phones with a higher refresh rate screen seem to have a higher PWM frequency too, so it seems like the Pixel is running with the higher PWM frequency with the 90Hz mode. However, the FE is still easier at least on my eyes. Unfortunately the Galaxy Watch Active 2 doesn't integrate quite as smoothly as with a Samsung phone, so I'm looking for a SnapDragon 4100 Wear OS watch to give it a new go.

In an optimal scenario I could pair my Apple Watch with either of my Android phones or I could use an iPhone with a more advanced camera than the SE, but so far my options have been limited as also the 11 gave me headaches.

EDIT: See an update at https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/eye-strain-while-using-iphone-x.2085427/post-29538275

 

[MICHAELSD]

DC Dimming would be awesome indeed, but knowing Apple I'm not holding my breath. For after all, they won't be having it on by default as it can distort colors in some circumstances and we all know how dearly Apple loves options and configurability.

The 2020 SE is the iPhone I use right now thanks to how well the Apple Watch S6 works with it. However, while the camera isn't a complete potato, it doesn't match up with more modern phone cameras so I'm currently experimenting with Android options. I'm typing this on a Samsung Galaxy S20 FE and while the phone is nice although maybe a bit on the large side, the Galaxy Watch Active 2 that I have paired with it isn't quite as nice as the Apple Watch. Some things it does better, but for night modes there are a couple of issues that have lead me to use my Apple Watch for the night and forward calls to the SE during that time. The display I'm OK with even though I was initially scared about its low PWM flicker rating on Notebookcheck, but apparently it's using PWM only when brightness is at 30% or lower. Above that it should be DC Dimming and now that I've made sure to keep the brightness well above the threshold, I haven't experienced eye strain with this one.

I also have a Pixel 5 that I got for its camera and clean Android. Its size is awesome, just a slight increase from the SE with a lot more screen real estate. The display flickers between 188 - 367.6 Hz and I did notice some initial eye strain, but it got better when I forced 90Hz refresh mode. For after all, phones with a higher refresh rate screen seem to have a higher PWM frequency too, so it seems like the Pixel is running with the higher PWM frequency with the 90Hz mode. However, the FE is still easier at least on my eyes. Unfortunately the Galaxy Watch Active 2 doesn't integrate quite as smoothly as with a Samsung phone, so I'm looking for a SnapDragon 4100 Wear OS watch to give it a new go.

In an optimal scenario I could pair my Apple Watch with either of my Android phones or I could use an iPhone with a more advanced camera than the SE, but so far my options have been limited as also the 11 gave me headaches.

It is reassuring that the Samsung Galaxy S20 FE has no flickering above 30% brightness.

Now that Samsung is starting to embrace a flicker-free approach I’d expect Apple to follow suit. iPhone 13 is likely to have a 120Hz refresh rate and a LTPO panel, which should help them take a new approach to PWM.

 

[jimmy_uk]

It's 240 not 290.

Notebookcheck made a video testing it

Exactly, you've proven the point. So why have they recorded 290.7? This info is now shared across the Internet but is wrong.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...than-you-could-shake-a-stick-at.435092.0.html

 

[MICHAELSD]

I’ve been using iPhone 12 Pro Max for the past few days and I’m definitely still getting tension headaches and migraines, including those persistent migraines that last for hours even when I’m not using the phone.

It’s still a bit disheartening because I’ve grown to really like iPhone 12 Pro Max. It’s such a major step up in display quality, tech, and design from the 8 Plus. If it wasn’t for the PWM still being so problematic I’d gladly keep it. There are more important things in life, but there are few I enjoy more than a new iPhone.

I wish I didn’t even know the display flickered like 99%+ of consumers.

 

[JM]

I’ve been using iPhone 12 Pro Max for the past few days and I’m definitely still getting tension headaches and migraines, including those persistent migraines that last for hours even when I’m not using the phone.

It’s still a bit disheartening because I’ve grown to really like iPhone 12 Pro Max. It’s such a major step up in display quality, tech, and design from the 8 Plus. If it wasn’t for the PWM still being so problematic I’d gladly keep it. There are more important things in life, but there are few I enjoy more than a new iPhone.

I wish I didn’t even know the display flickered like 99%+ of consumers.

I returned the mini and got an eleven. The 12 has better reception, and that great OLED.

But the 11 has a good LCD screen and reception is good enough.

and it's a step up from a 7 on speed and photo quality so maybe consider the 11? From what I read, the headaches will never go away

 

[MICHAELSD]

I returned the mini and got an eleven. The 12 has better reception, and that great OLED.

But the 11 has a good LCD screen and reception is good enough.

and it's a step up from a 7 on speed and photo quality so maybe consider the 11? From what I read, the headaches will never go away

I did try an iPhone 11 in March after initially skipping it. Truth be told I didn’t hate it and found it much more usable than iPhone XR since they added Haptic Touch, but I’m not willing to compromise. If it weren’t for Covid I would have probably returned it within 14 days since I was disappointed from the second I powered it on, although it did grow on me — the colors on the display looks incredibly natural and the gestures were nice to have.

If iPhone 12 had a LCD with 458ppi (I understand why they went with 326ppi on iPhone 11) I would have probably stuck with that for the next few years. I’d have to downgrade in some way from my 8+ to get a new iPhone with a LCD. I’d have to take another look at iPhone SE before ordering one, since the display on that is surprisingly the best LCD Apple’s ever shipped on an iPhone. If we could get a 6.1” SE Plus with a display of that quality and the A14 Bionic/A15 it would hold me over for a while.

There seems to be some sort of improvement from iPhone X since I don’t get the profoundly deep throbbing migraines I got for hours from just staring at a notification. They’re more mild in comparison. To my surprise I had tried using iPhone X on and off for four months (at some periods I had it powered off in the box, so I didn’t put a lot of time into using it) and it didn’t improve so I wouldn’t expect it to in this case.

I would gladly keep iPhone 12 Pro Max if migraines weren’t even a consideration, and it shouldn’t be at this point.

 

[tonybarnaby]

I wish I didn’t even know the display flickered like 99%+ of consumers.

That’s actually the worst case scenario. Then, you’d have unexplained headaches and eye strain and most likely visit several doctors trying to nail it down.

I was in the same boat as you, but I got rid of my xs max ASAP. As nice as it is, a headache isn’t worth it. Completely putting aside the potential for long term damage, it just sucks to enjoyment out of using something that you know will cause you discomfort. If you’re willing to have daily headaches to have the best phone on the market, I guess just invest in some ibuprofen and try to “get over it”. Although I have never seen even 1 person manage to get over pwm, but I wish you the best since it’s obvious how important the phone is to you.

 

[MICHAELSD]

That’s actually the worst case scenario. Then, you’d have unexplained headaches and eye strain and most likely visit several doctors trying to nail it down.

I was in the same boat as you, but I got rid of my xs max ASAP. As nice as it is, a headache isn’t worth it. Completely putting aside the potential for long term damage, it just sucks to enjoyment out of using something that you know will cause you discomfort. If you’re willing to have daily headaches to have the best phone on the market, I guess just invest in some ibuprofen and try to “get over it”. Although I have never seen even 1 person manage to get over pwm, but I wish you the best since it’s obvious how important the phone is to you.

I should clarify that I wish I didn’t even have to know that the display flickered, and I wouldn’t have done so much research had I not had unexplainable migraines for the first time in my life from the first second I started using iPhone X.

The average consumer is able to use auto brightness without thinking about PWM. While I think it affects probably 1% of 1% of users to the severity that it affects us, I think there’s a much larger group of users getting headaches that aren’t aware of it — possibly as high as 10%.

Realistically it’s not possible to keep a phone that causes headaches/migraines during and after use. In fact, it‘s extremely concerning waking up with headaches and migraines because of a phone. The only reason I even tried iPhone 12 Pro Max this year was because reviews indicated that the PWM has been improved.

By the time we’re able to use a flagship iPhone again I’m sure it will be better than ever, with an even better display and design. I just hope that we don’t have to wait another four generations without a resolution for those sensitive to PWM.

I may purchase an iPhone SE instead, which at least fits one of my resolutions for 2021 to stop spending so much time on my phone.

 

[tonybarnaby]

I should clarify that I wish I didn’t even have to know that the display flickered, and I wouldn’t have done so much research had I not had unexplainable migraines for the first time in my life from the first second I started using iPhone X.

The average consumer is able to use auto brightness without thinking about PWM. While I think it affects probably 1% of 1% of users to the severity that it affects us, I think there’s a much larger group of users getting headaches that aren’t aware of it — possibly as high as 10%.

Realistically it’s not possible to keep a phone that causes headaches/migraines during and after use. In fact, it‘s extremely concerning waking up with headaches and migraines because of a phone. The only reason I even tried iPhone 12 Pro Max this year was because reviews indicated that the PWM has been improved.

By the time we’re able to use a flagship iPhone again I’m sure it will be better than ever, with an even better display and design. I just hope that we don’t have to wait another four generations without a resolution for those sensitive to PWM.

I may purchase an iPhone SE instead, which at least fits one of my resolutions for 2021 to stop spending so much time on my phone.

I had the same pwm symptoms on an 11 that I got on an xs max. You were fine on the 11 so you should be ok. If you buy a non oled, I can’t imagine why you’d pick the se over an 11?

 

[MICHAELSD]

I had the same pwm symptoms on an 11 that I got on an xs max. You were fine on the 11 so you should be ok. If you buy a non oled, I can’t imagine why you’d pick the se over an 11?

iPhone 11 felt like too much of a compromise to me, especially now that I’ve tried iPhone 12. The bezels are significantly larger than OLED models, the phone itself was large enough to not have the benefits of a smaller phone yet the display felt too small relative to its size, and the display on iPhone SE has a significantly higher contrast ratio.

 

[tonybarnaby]

iPhone 11 felt like too much of a compromise to me, especially now that I’ve tried iPhone 12. The bezels are significantly larger than OLED models, the phone itself was large enough to not have the benefits of a smaller phone yet the display felt too small relative to its size, and the display on iPhone SE has a significantly higher contrast ratio.

Contrast or not, I just can’t see myself ever being able to type on a screen that size again. We all did it before “big” phones came out, but I can’t go back

 

[1369281]

It is reassuring that the Samsung Galaxy S20 FE has no flickering above 30% brightness.

Now that Samsung is starting to embrace a flicker-free approach I’d expect Apple to follow suit. iPhone 13 is likely to have a 120Hz refresh rate and a LTPO panel, which should help them take a new approach to PWM.

This is the best news I've heard in years in this thread. ? Fingers crossed.