It’s the screen flickering on and off very fast that’s thrashing people’s nervous systems. You’re basically staring at a strobe light.
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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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It’s the screen flickering on and off very fast that’s thrashing people’s nervous systems. You’re basically staring at a strobe light.
Technically yes, morally I'm not sure how I feel about that. I would love to put it to the test in detail though. At all different brightness levels, with and without the tricks to reduce the effect of PWM.
An observation from someone who doesn’t have PWM — I can read for 6-10 hours straight on my iPad Pro 11 with no problems, no strain.
However, my iPhone 11 PM, 12 PM, and 13PM - I’ve never been able to read more than a few hours without feeling slight pain in my head/eyes. I chalked this up to a smaller screen but just an observation. I can’t get rid of my iPad and just read on my iPhone because of this reason. There’s something very different about these screens.
I’m someone who gets extremely motion sick with console games and PC games without V-sync enabled (and have since I was a kid).
However, my iPhone 11 PM, 12 PM, and 13PM - I’ve never been able to read more than a few hours without feeling slight pain in my head/eyes. I chalked this up to a smaller screen but just an observation. I can’t get rid of my iPad and just read on my iPhone because of this reason. There’s something very different about these screens.
I’m someone who gets extremely motion sick with console games and PC games without V-sync enabled (and have since I was a kid).
I'm with you on the moral aspect. I wonder if you called Apple, or went into the Apple store and openly explained and asked them if they see anything wrong with you "testing some things out regarding the screen for a study you're doing, and if you were to return the phone in pristine condition, would that be a problem".
I think the morality of the situation would be null if you openly admitted you were going to return it.
Just a thought. Maybe it would be an unnecessary complication.
I would, but the closest official Apple store is almost two hours away. I think they would either say no or just inform me about the 14 day return period.
The thing is, if I was genuinely interested in an iPhone 13, which I would have been if it wasn't for the flicker, then it would have been fine to buy it with the intention of keeping, test and return because I can't use it. But knowing I'll return it for sure makes it a moral issue.
If the equipment was portable I could have taken it to a store and told them about the situation and asked if it was ok, but unfortunately it's not. I'll try to figure something out. Meanwhile I can report that the 2020 MacBook Air M1 is flicker free above 50% brightness but has some flicker below. I posted the info in another thread.
Apple DOES care about accessibility (and these migraines/eye strain is definitely an accessibility issue), we just need to make some more noise.
They make VoiceOver, a screenreader for people who are blind or low vision people to use iPhones and Mac. This is obviously a minority of the population, but Apple still funds it.
You should let Apple know about this eye-strain issue:
They make VoiceOver, a screenreader for people who are blind or low vision people to use iPhones and Mac. This is obviously a minority of the population, but Apple still funds it.
You should let Apple know about this eye-strain issue:
- Email accessibility AT apple.com
- Provide feedback here: https://www.apple.com/feedback/
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Just popping in to say after a successful run with the free iPhone XR 64 gb AT&T sent me, I was gifted by my family with an iPhone 11 128 GB. I really enjoyed being back on the XR but I was a little constrained on space so my family upgraded me and got me the mint green color I’d admired when the iPhone 11 was first released.
I’m really liking the iPhone 11 so far. It looks a little warmer than the one on my XR, but is crisp and so far seems easy on the eyes.
Happy Holidays to all! Merry Christmas weekend!
I’m really liking the iPhone 11 so far. It looks a little warmer than the one on my XR, but is crisp and so far seems easy on the eyes.
Happy Holidays to all! Merry Christmas weekend!
Contacted them via email a few days ago and got a personal reply back saying they send my feedback to the team and will get back to me. Curious if i ever hear back from them.
They’re aware of it. Ultimately they still have more work to do. I’m a bit torn since some days have been better than others with iPhone 13 Mini. For the most part it’s been about half as problematic as previous OLED iPhones although I tried to watch an episode of Dexter: New Blood last night and found it slightly difficult to fully focus on the display without developing a migraine or tension headache. I experimented with 13% and 22% brightness, eventually settling at 13% for watching videos indoors. On the flip side the OLED display is only looking better year-over-year, and the color accuracy is beginning to outdo my Pioneer KURO. I’m slightly envious of those that can use these phones without issues.
Likely not with a resolution. Apparently millions of people are able to use these phones so we are in a particularly sensitive/perceptible group. I do still get throbbing pain after use at times unfortunately.
Apple Store staff have encouraged me on multiple occasions to use the 14-day window for testing, saying it’s “why it exists”. And it’s also a legal requirement if you order online (distance selling).
I admit I may have stretched it a little far with my iPhone saga earlier this year, but I don’t see any issue with test driving iPhones for a couple of weeks as long as you look after them!
P.S. I’ve had my 13 Pro for six weeks now and still loving it! I usually forget the PWM thing exists until I decide to check in on you guys now and then.
I’ve really come to enjoy the smaller Pro and I’m actually glad to have downsized. I don’t feel like I’ve lost much because it’s got the same awesome cameras as the Max and it still has superb battery life, beating my old 12 Pro Max by a long way.
Excellent phone, it’s just a shame that it’s still no good for some of us. 🥲
This is an aside, but I would still love this exact phone without flicker. The OLED display makes a world of difference. I wouldn’t even entertain watching a movie on iPhone SE, yet movies on iPhone 13 Mini admittedly look better than even my acclaimed Pioneer KURO. Frankly it’s almost like having a handheld Dolby Cinema, and the audio is impressively amazing as well. A 5.4” iPhone OLED provides a better experience than a majority of people’s home theaters, unless they have a new LG OLED TV and even then Apple’s color calibration is second-to-none.
Imagine how amazing these phones must be to people that don’t have to deal with headaches from the display…
Goals for Apple’s display team:
1. Eliminate PWM from iPhone
2. Develop an Apple OLED TV
Imagine how amazing these phones must be to people that don’t have to deal with headaches from the display…
Goals for Apple’s display team:
1. Eliminate PWM from iPhone
2. Develop an Apple OLED TV
i do have the 13pro for several weeks and i have try'd to use it for 30 min but every time i did i get very annoying nausia, more then eye strain or headache, so this unit is going to be shipped back to apple today ?✈️
What device is next? i think i will try the 13mini since i read several positive story's here on macrumors
What device is next? i think i will try the 13mini since i read several positive story's here on macrumors
I do find the 13 Mini to be my best experience using an OLED iPhone, although tension headaches have been becoming more apparent lately.
The biggest issue for me comes after spending an extended amount of time watching i.e. a movie on the display. I do tend to get throbbing pain where it feels like there’s a weight behind my eye afterwards. iOS and forum posts aren’t half bad, and frankly look amazing at 42% brightness currently even if they’re not free of issues.
Per Notebookcheck it does seem like there is a moderate distinction this year between all four iPhone 13 models. I’ll compile a list although it isn’t entirely clear where there’s an error in translation that could make it less accurate.
2021 iPhone 13 PWM Rates (per Notebookcheck)
iPhone 13 Mini: PWM in a range between 162.3 and 510.2Hz starting at brightness levels of 15%. Below that, only the refresh rate of 60 Hz can be detected. — It’s not specified at what levels 162.3Hz is detected as that’s a low rate that could cause issues.
iPhone 13: The display backlight flickers at 609.8Hz. At the lowest brightness setting, the display exhibits a flickering that is indicative of PWM being used to regulate the display's brightness. However, just slightly increasing the brightness makes the flickering disappear. — This appears to be similar to the 60Hz mode on iPhone 13 Mini, although the brightness range isn’t specified.
iPhone 13 Pro: Unfortunately, the OLED panel suffers from PWM flickering (flickering frequency at 10% brightness and below: 240 Hz; at above 10% brightness: 446.4-510.2 Hz). However, Apple has integrated a DC dimming mode into the iPhone 13 Pro. All in all, the iPhone’s screen does quite a bit to ameliorate the OLED flickering. — They also measured a 60Hz mode. While it seems like this may be doing the most on paper, the 240Hz frequency at under 10% may be part of the reason I’m having better luck with iPhone 13 Mini.
iPhone 13 Pro Max: The display backlight flickers at 238.1Hz. As usual for OLED displays, we notice a flickering. However, at the same time the amplitude flattens and the frequency drops at low brightness. This means that Apple probably integrated DC Dimming, which becomes effective at a low brightness, into its panel control. — Again they don’t go into specific detail, although it sounds like iPhone 13 Pro Max enters the same 60Hz mode at lower brightness levels. The rate of 238.1Hz is low enough that it’s likely to cause the same amount of issues as iPhone 12 Pro Max, which is to say it’s barely a step up from iPhone X for anyone who’s sensitive.
A consensus could be drawn that iPhone 13 has the highest rate at 609.8Hz and thus would be the best option for PWM-sensitive users. I could be persuaded to try iPhone 13 as iPhone 13 Mini has been a major improvement overall and the higher rate could push it over the edge, although there are no guarantees.
I’m fairly confident that if Apple were to double the rates again they would further cut the symptoms in half. That’s not to say they would be nonexistent unless there was a true flicker-free approach. In fact, I am getting light migraines or throbbing behind the eye with the display at 42% utilizing auto-brightness.
While the 60Hz mode at lower brightness levels is an improvement over the stark PWM of the past it’s also not enough to eliminate symptoms.
iPhone 13 Mini: PWM in a range between 162.3 and 510.2Hz starting at brightness levels of 15%. Below that, only the refresh rate of 60 Hz can be detected. — It’s not specified at what levels 162.3Hz is detected as that’s a low rate that could cause issues.
iPhone 13: The display backlight flickers at 609.8Hz. At the lowest brightness setting, the display exhibits a flickering that is indicative of PWM being used to regulate the display's brightness. However, just slightly increasing the brightness makes the flickering disappear. — This appears to be similar to the 60Hz mode on iPhone 13 Mini, although the brightness range isn’t specified.
iPhone 13 Pro: Unfortunately, the OLED panel suffers from PWM flickering (flickering frequency at 10% brightness and below: 240 Hz; at above 10% brightness: 446.4-510.2 Hz). However, Apple has integrated a DC dimming mode into the iPhone 13 Pro. All in all, the iPhone’s screen does quite a bit to ameliorate the OLED flickering. — They also measured a 60Hz mode. While it seems like this may be doing the most on paper, the 240Hz frequency at under 10% may be part of the reason I’m having better luck with iPhone 13 Mini.
iPhone 13 Pro Max: The display backlight flickers at 238.1Hz. As usual for OLED displays, we notice a flickering. However, at the same time the amplitude flattens and the frequency drops at low brightness. This means that Apple probably integrated DC Dimming, which becomes effective at a low brightness, into its panel control. — Again they don’t go into specific detail, although it sounds like iPhone 13 Pro Max enters the same 60Hz mode at lower brightness levels. The rate of 238.1Hz is low enough that it’s likely to cause the same amount of issues as iPhone 12 Pro Max, which is to say it’s barely a step up from iPhone X for anyone who’s sensitive.
A consensus could be drawn that iPhone 13 has the highest rate at 609.8Hz and thus would be the best option for PWM-sensitive users. I could be persuaded to try iPhone 13 as iPhone 13 Mini has been a major improvement overall and the higher rate could push it over the edge, although there are no guarantees.
I’m fairly confident that if Apple were to double the rates again they would further cut the symptoms in half. That’s not to say they would be nonexistent unless there was a true flicker-free approach. In fact, I am getting light migraines or throbbing behind the eye with the display at 42% utilizing auto-brightness.
While the 60Hz mode at lower brightness levels is an improvement over the stark PWM of the past it’s also not enough to eliminate symptoms.
I have no idea if PWM is the culprit or not, but I've been getting headaches since around the time I got my iPhone 13 Pro. I also got a Dell XPS around this time, which has an OLED screen that flickers at 60Hz, although I stare at it much less and generally use flicker free 4K IPS displays with it. The headaches start at my eyes and shoots through the back of my head...they are an annoyance but generally not impairing. The 13 Pro is the first 120Hz device I have owned. The XPS is the first OLED device I have owned that flickers at 60 Hz (refresh rate is also 60 Hz...not sure why Samsung and Dell went this route, but frames shot at 60 FPS shows the screen visibly flickering even at 100% brightness and I REALLY regret not getting the 4K IPS). I've had a 11 Pro and X and not had issues. For that matter, obviously my MBPs also use PWM and I have never had an issue there. I also recently switched my in-ceiling lighting to dimmable LED, which, to my understanding, also flickers through the use of PWM. It does leave me wondering if perhaps all of the flickering combined may have a compilation effect.
I stare at screens for many (12+) hours each day, which probably doesn't help, but most of that time is my 16-inch MacBook Pro (which flickers at 131,700 Hz) or my flicker-free 4K IPS displays.
I'm not convinced this is PWM, or even OLED for that matter, but I am also not convinced it isn't. I'm also not convinced this isn't a sign of a bigger issue. I am convinced I am out of my depth here and that it may be time to see my primary care doctor and possibly a neurologist as I do not want to attribute this to OLED displays when there is a much bigger issue that needs treatment.
I think Apple's decision to move forward with mini and micro LED technology is probably the right decision. Whether my issue is from these OLED displays or something completely unrelated, it's clear OLED has quite a few downsides and I think Apple is well aware of this. I'll definitely look forward to a mini or micro LED iPhone.
I stare at screens for many (12+) hours each day, which probably doesn't help, but most of that time is my 16-inch MacBook Pro (which flickers at 131,700 Hz) or my flicker-free 4K IPS displays.
I'm not convinced this is PWM, or even OLED for that matter, but I am also not convinced it isn't. I'm also not convinced this isn't a sign of a bigger issue. I am convinced I am out of my depth here and that it may be time to see my primary care doctor and possibly a neurologist as I do not want to attribute this to OLED displays when there is a much bigger issue that needs treatment.
I think Apple's decision to move forward with mini and micro LED technology is probably the right decision. Whether my issue is from these OLED displays or something completely unrelated, it's clear OLED has quite a few downsides and I think Apple is well aware of this. I'll definitely look forward to a mini or micro LED iPhone.
Eye strain from staring at computer screens goes all the way back to CRT monitors. Those things were debilitating for scores of people including myself.
Their problem was 60hz flickering of course but also blurry details which made the eyes constantly hunt for focus where none existed.
Another observation:
Anecdotally I’ve found the display on iPhone 13 Pro to be slightly dull in comparison to iPhone 13 or iPhone 13 Pro Max. Having owned one for a short period of time I do find the colors to be more vibrant and the display slightly sharper on iPhone 13 Mini — IMO there’s still a perceptible benefit to a slightly higher PPI.
I noted the same difference in Zollotech’s review with both phones at the same brightness level and while iPhone 13 Pro on the right appears not to flicker in 120Hz slo-mo that could be because the PWM rate lines up with the slo-mo and iPhone 13 has the higher rate. Otherwise I’d assume iPhone 13 Pro would be fine this year if I hadn’t already tried it.
Anecdotally I’ve found the display on iPhone 13 Pro to be slightly dull in comparison to iPhone 13 or iPhone 13 Pro Max. Having owned one for a short period of time I do find the colors to be more vibrant and the display slightly sharper on iPhone 13 Mini — IMO there’s still a perceptible benefit to a slightly higher PPI.
I noted the same difference in Zollotech’s review with both phones at the same brightness level and while iPhone 13 Pro on the right appears not to flicker in 120Hz slo-mo that could be because the PWM rate lines up with the slo-mo and iPhone 13 has the higher rate. Otherwise I’d assume iPhone 13 Pro would be fine this year if I hadn’t already tried it.
People over at LEDStrain.org have reported success calling Apple Accessibility. You talk to an actual human who is an accessibility rep and they say they will get back to you in 1-2 weeks.
Please call Apple Accessibility about this problem. Apple does care about minorities; they bundle VoiceOver with iOS which is for blind people and they are obviously a minority of the population too.
We need to start making Apple care, give them a call!
Please call Apple Accessibility about this problem. Apple does care about minorities; they bundle VoiceOver with iOS which is for blind people and they are obviously a minority of the population too.
We need to start making Apple care, give them a call!
The amplitude on iPhone 13 is significantly better than its closest competition, not exceeding 12.1% even at minimum brightness.
I do want to keep an iPhone this generation and I feel an attachment to iPhone 13 Mini but I definitely do still get eye strain and throbbing pain during and after use at times. If I could switch to another iPhone 13 model for the sake of better PWM I would. Otherwise I have no complaints about this little powerhouse of a phone.
Hypothetically I could keep it and go back to upgrading annually hoping Apple continues making PWM improvements year-over-year; however, that is by no means a given and iPhone 13 Mini is just on the cusp of being usable. On the plus side these phones do inspire a lot of joy beyond headaches… it’s incredible what this iPhone is capable of and how much of a joy it’s become to use—unfortunately I still have to add the disclaimer of PWM notwithstanding.
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The 13 Pro and 13 Mini both gave me eyestrain eventually. The iphone 13 allowed me to use an OLED iphone for the longest period ever without eye strain. But it gave me what felt like motion sickness which caused me to feel uncomfortable in my gut, burping and eventually a mild headache because I tried to ignore the symptoms. It was enough discomfort to bail out and return. Rates are still not high enough.
I may try an iPhone 13 too, although I quite like the size of iPhone 13 Mini.
It’s surprising how many users post about trying and returning multiple phone models even aside from this thread; apparently, Apple has no limits on returns which seems to work well for the sake of customer service.
I could certainly return iPhone 13 Mini and wait till next generation, but the alternative is to keep iPhone SE which to be fair may be enjoyable with the upcoming third-generation iPhone SE.
Many modern LCD TV’s have a PWM rate of 960Hz and don’t bother a majority of people including myself so if Apple can get the rate to 960Hz+ that should be adequate for a majority of people.
In retrospect if I’m getting throbbing behind my eyes and headaches that means the flicker is still perceptible to me so perhaps I should ultimately return it for my health. It should be like using a MacBook Pro or plasma TV which has an extremely high rate where there’s zero perceptible flicker that bothers me.
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Dear forum enjoyers, fellow sufferers, it has been my pleasure to be in contact with you again this year, to exchange opinions and experiences. I wish everyone a wonderful 2022, with few headaches and many new pwm free iphones 