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That is sad news, seems like we can't win for trying, I always thought Samsung AMOLED were a safer bet but I am out of touch with that side. I encourage others to email Apple/Mr Cook explaining they cannot buy a new OLED iPhone due to this problem, it only takes a few minutes and cannot hurt.
There are some non-Apple LCD phones still around.
 
There are some non-Apple LCD phones still around.
That is very true, not trying to seems like a total Apple devotee here, sorry :) but it is so annoying that many phones are out of reach in the Apple circle. I have used Samsung, Oneplus, Motorola etc in the past, and of course Nokia 6310 :cool: which was and probably still is, the king of 'mobile phones' for making mobile phone calls :D
 
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Has anyone seen the Huawei Mate 50 Pro Notebookcheck review? Does anyone really understand this 😂? No PWM was detected?


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I haven't caught up with all the posts here yet so forgive me if I'm saying something that has already been said.

In following a very tiny discussion posted by IceUniverse on Twitter, he expressed dismay that only the Chinese seem aware of pwm effects on the nervous system and mitigate it in their products. He called out Apple and Samsung for doing nothing.

Well he got pushback from someone claiming to be a Healthcare provider who said pwm was a big nothing burger and there's no peer reviewed evidence that it's harmful. Well duh, there's no western sponsored research at all that I'm aware of so of course there's no "peer reviewed evidence" against it.

( I wonder what this person's experience as a "Healthcare provider" actually consists of. As amazing as the vast majority of Healthcare workers are, they're not all going to necessarily be well versed in medical research. I don't expect an orderly to know about complex neuroscience. Conversely, I don't expect a neuroscientist to be a decent orderly, either. It's not a matter of disrespecting one profession's skill set vs another, but acknowledging they're suited for different purposes. So one can't generically say "I'm a Healthcare provider" and therefore claim authority to dismiss an entire category of health concern. Unfortunately that's the type of discussion taking place outside of this forum).

Sorry, I guess I strayed a bit. Getting back on topic, it does seem the Chinese, for whatever reasons, are miles ahead of everyone else about this.

My husband once imported one Chinese phone. A Huawei P30 or 30 Pro. I can't quite remember the model number. I don't often talk about how we are propagandized here because I truly do loathe the CCP. I don't want their Spyware. I hate the IP property theft that Chinese companies and government collude to engage in. So normally I keep silent.

But I have to say, their phones are oddly way ahead of the Apple and Samsung game in some respects and have been for a long time. That Huawei's camera produced amazing photos in difficult conditions that Apple can now rival only a few years later.

And in other respects they are hot garbage. Nevertheless, it's a big loss for Chinese and non Chinese customers that our companies can't and don't compete more full out against each other.

Because I think we'd be walking around with tech that isn't frying our nervous systems. We'd have headphone ports AND Bluetooth options coexisting peacefully along with water resistance.

Apple is king in the US. So we are stuck with whatever they choose to give us at the prices their stockholders cheer on. Sigh.

In my very recent personal experience I'm doing well on my S22 Ultra with adaptive refresh on. I just turned resolution down to FHD+ and am having the best eye and brain comfort on that setting. I spent some time online doing shopping and Christmas shipment monitoring. But largely during the week I try to stay to about an hour looking at the screen.

Samsung uses AMOLED not OLED. I didn't think that was an actual difference except in name only. But someone on a different discussion said it is a pertinent difference. I'll try and find that post again later.
 
I used S10 for almost two years before switching to an iPhone 14 Pro Max, which has more PWM frequency than the S10, at least according to papers (S10 has 240HZ whereas iPhone 14 Pro Max has 250HZ <39% brightness). Shortly after switching to the 14 Pro Max, I started experiencing discomfort and within a week or so, severe headaches and pain in the eyes while moving the eyes upwards and downwards. I did some research and discovered few things and started tweaking my iPhone and eventually nothing worked.

After losing $200 on the sale of the 14 Pro Max, I converted to S22 Ultra, which operates at a much lower frequency than the 14 Pro Max (usually 120 Hz), and I never experienced any real discomfort. I did some research and discovered an article that explains the distinction between OLED and AMOLED, but I don't think I'm sensitive to PWM; instead, I think I'm sensitive to the OLEDs that iPhone was utilising in its smartphones.

When compared to AMOLED, OLED is less expensive, and it lacks the additional TT layer that makes the colours look more brilliant (which is helpful for clarity but extremely harmful to certain people's eyes). Your eyes will eventually grow tired and all the nerves that are connected to your eyes, including the ones in your ears, neck, shoulders, and the area around your eyes, will become uncomfortable and may even experience mild to severe pain. Displays with this colour calibration will constantly ask your eyes to focus more and force them to re-work and refocus almost constantly. Long-term use may give you migraines that last a lifetime. The hardware, not the software, is the issue.
Oh good you posted this info here. I thought I'd have to go fetch it from the other discussion.

I'm back to rocking AMOLED on my s22 Ultra. I hadn't been using it much because it's a big phone with a curved glass display that feels too fragile to me to carry around like I do my iPhones. But I'm getting renewed appreciation for it. I don't think for me, it's just pwm. It's some godawful mystery meat in the Apple concoction because I'm suffering nervous systmem issues on every single iPhone I own: SE3, iPhone 11, 12 mini and 14 Pro Max.
 
Oh good you posted this info here. I thought I'd have to go fetch it from the other discussion.

I'm back to rocking AMOLED on my s22 Ultra. I hadn't been using it much because it's a big phone with a curved glass display that feels too fragile to me to carry around like I do my iPhones. But I'm getting renewed appreciation for it. I don't think for me, it's just pwm. It's some godawful mystery meat in the Apple concoction because I'm suffering nervous systmem issues on every single iPhone I own: SE3, iPhone 11, 12 mini and 14 Pro Max.
According to Notebookcheck, the pwm value for the S22 Ultra is 120Hz.
 
Set up my Dad's new iPhone SE 2022 (which I am giving him for Christmas, taking the opportunity to have a little playtime) last night. Nice to hold a smaller phone after 5 years of a Plus iPhone and I was impressed by the screen's colours, contrast and smoothness when compared to my 7 Plus. But after an hour of fiddling, I felt like the lower part of my eyes were a little sore - stingy a little. This feeling was similar to the early response to the standard 14 - this is not good. So if the SE 2022 has no PWM.........??

This is beyond ridiculous now, what the hell is Apple doing?! 😞
My brother from another mother, I struggle with LCD on Apple, too. I ask the same question. I'm posting this from a Samsung s22 Ultra that's got plenty of pwm flicker I can't see. I'm not feeling it. I've been reading on this display all weekend. I tried my 14 Pro Max for about half an hour and felt as uncoordinated as a drunk.
 
I'd be all over Samsungs offerings but they make the screens that are in the iPhone so expect the same, if not worse, PWM around the 240hz mark. The Samsung threads are littered with people complaining about eye strain and headaches, just like this thread. Google phones are no better from what I've read. All current OLED in phones are bad for us sensitive folk 😩
Samsung makes a LOT of models. I'm not sure what they are doing on all of them. I did get pretty bad eye strain on a past Samsung. I can't remember which one it was. I went hrough Samsungs pretty fast when i was alternating between S series and Note series.
 
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I kick myself everyday for not getting an 8 Plus when it was available new - that would likely have seen me through to SE 2024. That said, with the 11 and SE 2022 irritating my eyes I have zero hope that I will be comfortable with the next SE. I'm raging but cannot be bothered to communicate with Apple anymore - they don't care and won't make changes for me/us. For me, its been over 5 years of issues with these displays and nothing has changed, infact its spread to more devices - boxing me out of upgrade paths across the board!
My husband got out his iPhone 6s Plus for me. He was going to wipe it clean for me but to my shocked surprise the display looked horrible to me. I mean aesthetically it was fine but made my eyes feel uncomfortable. Go figure! I'm totally mystified. I think it's still on an old version of iOS. At any rate there were old texts and voice-mails from friends we don't see much now and family who have since passed away. So I told him keep the phone as well preserved as he can and I'll figure out something else.

I had 2 8 Pluses and actually have my dad's Verizon one now. The camera is really poor by today's standards and the phone is terrible. I always hated talking to anyone while on mine or if they were talking to me on one. The sounds are garbled. That's why I moved on. I didn't realize I'd have troubles with the displays.

I'm not going to use my dad's phone because it's specifically for Verizon. And he has so many things on it I want to keep as-is for awhile.
 
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I just got back from a short walk and that classic line “… It's some godawful mystery meat in the Apple concoction” kept on going through my mind like a merry-go-round. What a great description. I found myself actually whispering it out loud as I walked & smiled.

I’m going to upgrade my rating of that comment. I can say with utmost certainty that it is THE BEST comment EVER written in the history of Mac Rumors forums EVER.
So great- because its so damn true.

I suspect that apple displays are still messed up since the X because they don’t know how to fix them. Basically- they don’t know what they’re doing. Obviously they know that some people get royally nailed by their displays- but nobody there can figure out why.
 
And don’t forget their newer laptops and iPad with miniled use lower Pwm than in the past. Also unusable for me. My MacBook Air lcd is infinitely more comfortable then the miniled MacBook Pro which causes weird neck/ occipital pain and disorientation. The display team are not doing a great job for sensitive users and there should be an accessibility option to mitigate these effects. I suspect they are also cutting costs to maximise profit.
 
And don’t forget their newer laptops and iPad with miniled use lower Pwm than in the past. Also unusable for me. My MacBook Air lcd is infinitely more comfortable then the miniled MacBook Pro which causes weird neck/ occipital pain and disorientation. The display team are not doing a great job for sensitive users and there should be an accessibility option to mitigate these effects. I suspect they are also cutting costs to maximise profit.
This is total madness, the more I read the more it seems like soon, iPhones, iPads and MacBook's will be off the menu. Whatever the heck it is they are doing, they need to stop it now. Otherwise this needs to be brought to the general publics attention more so than it is now.
 
Damn, I miss the old days.

The days where I could upgrade from an iPhone 8 to an 11 and be pretty confident that I would not only be able to use the phone but just totally enjoy it. It’s all gone to hell with OLED.

That’s my old guy rant; doesn’t make it any less true though 🤪
 
Oh good you posted this info here. I thought I'd have to go fetch it from the other discussion.

I'm back to rocking AMOLED on my s22 Ultra. I hadn't been using it much because it's a big phone with a curved glass display that feels too fragile to me to carry around like I do my iPhones. But I'm getting renewed appreciation for it. I don't think for me, it's just pwm. It's some godawful mystery meat in the Apple concoction because I'm suffering nervous systmem issues on every single iPhone I own: SE3, iPhone 11, 12 mini and 14 Pro Max.

Funny that you mention Samsung, I just picked up a z flip 4 a couple days ago. 100% a nostalgia purchase b/c I really missed flip phones, but I haven't gotten any headaches from it and I'm able to set the screen to static 60hz so no motion sickness either. I forgot how gorgeous AMOLEDs are lol. Pretty neat little phone, I'm very pleasantly surprised at how far Samsung and Android has come over the past few years too.

I know what you mean about the Apple mystery meat too, I can still comfortably use my 14+ but the Samsung does feel better to look at. I think for me it's the animations, even at 60hz Apple's animations still trigger a bit of motion sickness for me while Samsung's don't.
 
Came across this report: Samsung E6 OLED 2023

It specifically mentions PWM at 1,440Hz.

So, perhaps, if Apple moves to these, there may be hope; alternatively, it should at least increase the Android options for us (including the Galaxy 2023 models).
On the upside, it seems that Samsung is improving this with each generation of their screens.
 
I'm doing well on my S22 Ultra

Very interesting ... I may be keen to try this myself.

The upside of Samsung phones is that they have a very good software update schedule (at least for their Galaxy S range), their Android UI seems clean enough, and they have a software/hardware ecosystem that partly match Apple's (e.g. the only other provider where you can get a cellular watch).

May have to check what's out there; just missed the BF deals, where these were 50% or more off!
 
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Came across this report: Samsung E6 OLED 2023

It specifically mentions PWM at 1,440Hz.

So, perhaps, if Apple moves to these, there may be hope; alternatively, it should at least increase the Android options for us (including the Galaxy 2023 models).
On the upside, it seems that Samsung is improving this with each generation of their screens.
I think for the very sensitive users it won’t make much difference. Pwm on the MacBook Pro 14 inch is at 14000 hz and that screen still causes a bad reaction in some people. Dc dimming is probably our only hope. Unlikely to be implemented though due to the cost/trade-offs. I do think that these devices should come with a warning on the box though. (This device has rapidly flashing lights to regulate brightness and can trigger migraines in sensitive users). The health authorities need to step in.
 
I’m finishing up 7 days using the 14 Pro exclusively. Results have been a mixed bag. I have stretches where it seems just fine and other moments where I feel queasy, slight discomfort, etc.

I’ve learned some things. I think being in the 5th year of this has really changed my relationship with phones. I always wanted the latest/greatest but these days between the cost, maturation, screens, heft, and my no longer caring at all what Android does….I’ve changed.

1. I don’t like how the regular 14 Pro renders thin text. At all.
2. The dynamic island I was blown away by during the keynote does nothing for me.
3. I turn off promotion as it makes me feel ‘off’.
4. I disable always on display. No use for it.
5. Telephoto Lens and macro mode are not deal breakers for me.
6. This phone doesn’t feel $1400 better than my 11.

That said, I just picked up the 14 Plus. I like the bigger screen, lighter weight, and don’t miss the things I lose by foregoing the Max. Whether it works for me remains to be seen.

I was one who couldn’t fathom why someone would get the 14 plus. You get so much more for $200 more in the 14 pro max. You could make a point that the 13 pro max is a better phone. But I don’t care about that stuff now having used it and the lighter weight is nice. I’ll give it a week.

All that said, I’m sure I’ll be back on my 11 lol.
 
Yesterday i give 14 plus a second chance because back then i had flu/covid and thought that nausea was caused by the phone which was wrong.

The first day with 14 plus was perfectly fine with no issues at all. I only had very very minor headache at the end of the today. Today i woke up with dry eyes and a little bit more pressure/headache……

This phone is definitely going back. See you on se4 launch.
 
Came across this report: Samsung E6 OLED 2023

It specifically mentions PWM at 1,440Hz.

So, perhaps, if Apple moves to these, there may be hope; alternatively, it should at least increase the Android options for us (including the Galaxy 2023 models).
On the upside, it seems that Samsung is improving this with each generation of their screens.
I think Apple is already using those screens on current pro lineup.
 
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And don’t forget their newer laptops and iPad with miniled use lower Pwm than in the past. Also unusable for me. My MacBook Air lcd is infinitely more comfortable then the miniled MacBook Pro which causes weird neck/ occipital pain and disorientation. The display team are not doing a great job for sensitive users and there should be an accessibility option to mitigate these effects. I suspect they are also cutting costs to maximise profit.

I had not had a new iPad since the first 10.5 pro. So wanted the new iPad Pro 12.9 and ordered it. By the time it was set up had that stabbing pain behind my eyes and headache coming on. By day 4 I had to box it up and returned it. Immediately ordered the 11" and it has been great and love it. I sure wanted that big one though, it was fabulous!!!
 
I had not had a new iPad since the first 10.5 pro. So wanted the new iPad Pro 12.9 and ordered it. By the time it was set up had that stabbing pain behind my eyes and headache coming on. By day 4 I had to box it up and returned it. Immediately ordered the 11" and it has been great and love it. I sure wanted that big one though, it was fabulous!!!
Yeah the miniLED on the pro 12.9 or MacBook Pro 14/16inch is a no go if you sensitive to OLED. you will get a headache and it will not away. LED backlit screens are just much better for our eyes overall. The worst part about South Africa Apple is that there is a 20 percent penalty when you return a device. I have lost a lot of money due to these display issues.
 
I think for the very sensitive users it won’t make much difference. Pwm on the MacBook Pro 14 inch is at 14000 hz and that screen still causes a bad reaction in some people. Dc dimming is probably our only hope. Unlikely to be implemented though due to the cost/trade-offs. I do think that these devices should come with a warning on the box though. (This device has rapidly flashing lights to regulate brightness and can trigger migraines in sensitive users). The health authorities need to step in.
Haha, and add a big skull and crossbones to the box like they do cigarettes. 🤣
 
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