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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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Leindt
macrumors member
I was given an iphone 12 today to record some videos (I use a mobile phone with LCD) and I don't know if we are really under our own suggestion or what, but after a few minutes I have pressure in my left eye that I haven't had for years.
I currently only use LCD screens, except for the TV which is LED but it takes forever to bother me. But it's like you say, what else is there apart from PWM that hurts us. Because really, when I look at some OLED phones I feel a considerable discomfort, it's almost instantaneous. I haven't used new screens (which I'm not used to) for a long time but when it's time to do it, wow.
lawlbringer
macrumors regular
I might go this route as well. After trying the 13 Mini which has a 510Hz pwm rate it looks like the regular 13 pro is the only other phone with the same frequency. The 13 Mini definitely strained my eyes (some days not as bad as others) but it never gave me these weird head pains and nausea every other OLED iPhone seems to give me.
Perfectly stated—exact same here. I can handle my 13 mini (and could the 12 before it) in almost all lighting conditions, and now that the lifecycle of and system software and firmware for the mini has reached a certain maturation point the screen is really more comfortable for me. The visual, sixty-frames-on-OLED stutter is obviously still there, just with less of the tangible “bite” I remember from before. …Or maybe I’ve just adjusted/adapted over time; or perhaps it’s a combination of different factors.
Not all Apple OLED works for me, however, since both the XS and 14 Pro I found unusable in terms of PWM-induced symptoms and I had to return them both immediately.
My ultimate point being: PWM-suffers who haven’t seriously should try out the 13 mini, even if just as a “side” device. It is compact, it feels modern yet simple, and it achieves a greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts Apple magnificence that is sadly rare these days.
du57in
macrumors regular
I posted recently that I sadly went with the SE3 over a 13 Mini for a work phone (currently using SE2). That wasn't what happened. I ended up with a 13 Mini because I really wanted to force myself to try and get used to it. Much to my poor admin's annoyance, just sent it back to Verizon today. My head and eyes will eventually thank me, but I feel defeated.
I think my issue is not just PWM, but multiple things going on with OLED that bother me. At this point, I am hoping that with MicroLED Apple gets on the eye-health bandwagon and figures something out. Which is very possible considering how much of a selling point that is becoming in Asia and how badly Apple needs to stay successful in that market.
I won't take the SE for granted again.
I think my issue is not just PWM, but multiple things going on with OLED that bother me. At this point, I am hoping that with MicroLED Apple gets on the eye-health bandwagon and figures something out. Which is very possible considering how much of a selling point that is becoming in Asia and how badly Apple needs to stay successful in that market.
I won't take the SE for granted again.
The.Glorious.Son
macrumors 68000
I’m already on android due to pwm unfortunately, and planning to switch to s23, any info about pwm would be really appreciated (it’s difficult for me to buy and return, so a test could be tricky)
Roadstar
macrumors 68000
I have an S23+ on its way (currently using S22+), I'll report how it works for me once I get it.
MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
Good on you for making that decision this early.
I'm still admittedly tempted by iPhone 13 mini, but my experience won't be any different this time so it's pointless.
Every device seems more or less okay in an Apple Store, although I do pick up on light migraines within seconds of using any OLED iPhone. I particularly like iPhone 14 Pro as it's a solid size-to-body ratio and that may be the best of this current generation, but have to hold myself back from purchasing it or the new 16" M2 Pro MacBook Pro which seems to bother my eyes less.
I guess it reminds me that I do want to be using a newer device, and have to wait it out. I will spare no expense on a PWM-free, high-end Apple product. I.e. if the 16" M2 Pro had no PWM I would probably buy it today. Or iPhone 14 Pro obviously.
Today I went to the shops and measured the flicker ratio of a few Android phones with the Radex Lupin.
That was an interesting experience (in the true, non-overused sense of that word): I found two OLED phones that had surprisingly positive results.
Nokia X30: It had a flicker ratio of about 3% at highest brightness, and maintained that for a good amount of the display brightness range; even at 25%, it was still hovering under 5% (I don't remember the exact numbers anymore) ... it did go towards 10% or so as the brightness was really low, however, at that brightness, the screen wasn't legible anymore.
Moto Edge 30 Neo (and most of the others in that range), Moto G82: Similar to the Nokia, just slightly higher overall, across the brightness range.
But both of these had a better ratio to the iPhones across the brightness range.
The Moto phones even have a "prevent flickering" setting in the Display settings; that didn't change the flicker ratio according to my measurements, but it did change the black bars going across the screen (visible via slow mo camera) from very fast to very slow.
The other thing about the above phones that I noticed, is that they have moderate max brightness; the Nokia X30 goes to about 700 nits; I think this may be important, as I noticed with all of the above phones, that going below ~30% display brightness would make the screen too dark; so I'm thinking that these phones' max brightness setting isn't as intense and bright as the Samsungs and iPhones, and as a consequence, their auto brightness adjuster may not go much below 50%, even in darker environments (excluding a pitch black room).
They also had the new S23 range on display in store, so I gave those a measure, of course. These all started at ~50% flicker ratio at full brightness, and went up towards ~100%.
I'm having a look at Android phones, as I'm tempted to move across, as they have and likely will have good mid range LED options, as well as potentially viable OLED options. The reason I'm tempted to moving across is simply that there is uncertainty as to if/when Apple will continue LED phones, or improve their OLED screens, or move to a different screen technology that may be better for PWM sensitive people.
Essentially, I'm wondering why I should invest in their ecosystem, when there is a likely risk that I may be left without an iPhone option.
It probably doesn't help that I've seen a nice amount of really stupid bugs popping up on my 11 with iOS 16, and it makes reconsider spending a premium for that (i.e. I expect more bugs and issues with Android mid rangers, given they're cheaper).
That was an interesting experience (in the true, non-overused sense of that word): I found two OLED phones that had surprisingly positive results.
Nokia X30: It had a flicker ratio of about 3% at highest brightness, and maintained that for a good amount of the display brightness range; even at 25%, it was still hovering under 5% (I don't remember the exact numbers anymore) ... it did go towards 10% or so as the brightness was really low, however, at that brightness, the screen wasn't legible anymore.
Moto Edge 30 Neo (and most of the others in that range), Moto G82: Similar to the Nokia, just slightly higher overall, across the brightness range.
But both of these had a better ratio to the iPhones across the brightness range.
The Moto phones even have a "prevent flickering" setting in the Display settings; that didn't change the flicker ratio according to my measurements, but it did change the black bars going across the screen (visible via slow mo camera) from very fast to very slow.
The other thing about the above phones that I noticed, is that they have moderate max brightness; the Nokia X30 goes to about 700 nits; I think this may be important, as I noticed with all of the above phones, that going below ~30% display brightness would make the screen too dark; so I'm thinking that these phones' max brightness setting isn't as intense and bright as the Samsungs and iPhones, and as a consequence, their auto brightness adjuster may not go much below 50%, even in darker environments (excluding a pitch black room).
They also had the new S23 range on display in store, so I gave those a measure, of course. These all started at ~50% flicker ratio at full brightness, and went up towards ~100%.
I'm having a look at Android phones, as I'm tempted to move across, as they have and likely will have good mid range LED options, as well as potentially viable OLED options. The reason I'm tempted to moving across is simply that there is uncertainty as to if/when Apple will continue LED phones, or improve their OLED screens, or move to a different screen technology that may be better for PWM sensitive people.
Essentially, I'm wondering why I should invest in their ecosystem, when there is a likely risk that I may be left without an iPhone option.
It probably doesn't help that I've seen a nice amount of really stupid bugs popping up on my 11 with iOS 16, and it makes reconsider spending a premium for that (i.e. I expect more bugs and issues with Android mid rangers, given they're cheaper).
Based upon your results versus Notebookcheck, Notebook check recorded Nokia X30 with screen flickering at 92 Hz whereas the Moto Edge 30 Neo came in at 730 Hz, one of the “best” recorded with an OLED display.
The only phones with an OLED display and a better performance were the Lenovo Legion Phone Duel (833 Hz), Nubia RedMagic 7S Pro (803 Hz), Nubia RedMagic 6R (769 Hz), ZTE Axon 30 Ultra 5G (758 Hz), Moto Edge 30 Fusion (753 Hz), and Moto Razr 2022 (745 Hz).
That being said, Notebookcheck did have the iPhone 14-series at extremely low numbers whereas other sites and individuals in this forum were stating the numbers were at least double than Notebookcheck’s numbers. I have an iPhone 14 Pro Max and its the least headache inducing OLED iPhone I have, but that’s just personal experience.
iPhones are better than Galaxy series and Pixel series.
They will generally start at around 5% at full brightness, and move up to about 30% as brightness decreases ... the general tendency I noted was that the 120Hz iPhones have also got roughly double the %
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NotebookCheck seem to be checking the actual PWM frequency, whereas the measurement device I use measures the flicker ratio.
From the device's description of what that value means:
As with most things, nothing is straight forward. I've also seen some reviews of NotebookCheck's where they mention the amplitude curve, and that very shallow one should help people with PWM sensitivity; they mention this even for phones with a low PWM frequency.
I think this also ties in with the screen's max brightness capacity, and the Nokia and Moto have relatively lower nits compared to the Galaxies and iPhones, which I think is why my measures provide a lower % (based on the above definition) ... presumably this maps to NotebookCheck's "shallow amplitude curve".
Having said I'd given up trying OLED iPhones (I'm still on an LCD 11), I've just ordered a 13 (non-pro) as according to Notebookcheck this was the OLED iPhone that had the highest frequency of PWM at 610Hz. When I looked at one in a shop it was also noticeably more comfortable than the 14 next to it. We'll see. I've actually bought this one from eBay rather than from Apple as I don't want to be restricted by the 14 day return policy and will just take the hit if I don't tolerate it and have to sell it on.
danwestbrook
macrumors regular
Please let us know how you get on with the iPhone 13, I'm also tempted to order one and try after seeing its high PWM frequency for an Apple OLED device.
lawlbringer
macrumors regular
So after looking around for a 13 Pro for the last week or so I can honestly say it's real a shot in the dark considering you have to buy it 2nd hand to test. I have a friend who has one though so I might ask to read something on their phone with RWP on and see how my eyes feel before I sink $600-700 on a used one. Otherwise I might just get a 13 Mini and hope I adjust. Sadly my iPhone 11 has become a bit frustrating with cell signal issues I have to reboot to resolve. Not the most fun when you're driving and need GPS. 🙁
If we were talking about the very first generation iPhone 2 and it’s screen had this debilitating effect on people — it’s likely iPhone popularity would have never taken off.
But here we are, over a decade later with screens that ROYALLY SUCK
But here we are, over a decade later with screens that ROYALLY SUCK
Hi Guys,
I just bought an s23 ultra, unfortunately i have headache since few days
I own an xiaomi 11T pro, it took me few days to acclimate to it in the beginning, but it doesnt look thats the case with s23
I also owned a samsung note 8, and no problem at all
Do you suggest to suppress totally the 11T pro, and works only with s23u, looks like my brain is not able to process 2 differents oled mobile phone
Thanks
I just bought an s23 ultra, unfortunately i have headache since few days
I own an xiaomi 11T pro, it took me few days to acclimate to it in the beginning, but it doesnt look thats the case with s23
I also owned a samsung note 8, and no problem at all
Do you suggest to suppress totally the 11T pro, and works only with s23u, looks like my brain is not able to process 2 differents oled mobile phone
Thanks
Roadstar
macrumors 68000
I've been using my S23+ for a few days now and unfortunately I can say that it's been a rougher ride than my S22+ ever was. I think I've gotten more used to the S23+ after the initial shock and adjusting the settings (for example automatic brightness tended to pull the brightness really low, which in turn can amplify PWM quite a bit), but still I wouldn't call the current situation optimal and I'm inclined to use my Tab S8 with its great LCD more when at home (not that there's anything wrong with that, I just wish it were for a different reason). It'll be interesting to see what Notebookcheck says about these displays.
