Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[jimmy_uk]

Well, well, well....I've been using a friend's 2020 iPP 12.9" this weekend and despite it being reported as having PWM at 58820 Hz, I've been able to use it. This has me thinking:

1. Is this the screen lottery effect?
2. Is this the right level of flickering for my eyes?
3. Has my recent adjustment to the Studio display caused my eyes and brain to adjust finally (no reported PWM, but had eye strain for two days)?
4. Do I buy a refurbished model for myself (2020 models are getting old - but if it works)?


I have tried all the recent iPads and they all gave me eyestrain. The 2020 iPP 12.9" is the only one I hadn't used due to the reports of PWM but here I am having used it for several hours and zero eye strain although I did have some minor burping (motion sickness feeling) which I've experienced before when using the iPhone 13 and 14. With these iPhones, even without immediate eyestrain it would eventually build and then boom = headache. This might happen with the iPP.

 

[pwm away]

So I've been using an iPhone 14 for about the past 2 weeks exclusively ... the general outcome is that I can use this phone quite well in day to day use.

A few considerations:

1. I haven't customised any settings for the most part; that is, using it with auto-brightness on, no RWP set, no Night Shift during the day, True Tone on; I played around for a bit, with using it at 100% brightness, and RWP at around 90%, but that of course meant that it wasn't easily legible outside in full sunlight, and that it was difficult to use in very dark environments; so I quickly went away from a static setting
2. I initially used a Zagg anti blue light screen protector, which was nice enough, but didn't have enough anti-glare capability; I then got an anti blue light screen protector from Amazon, that said it had anti-glare -> unfortunately, it was nothing but glare; I am currently using a Belkin anti-glare one without blue light filter, while I'm waiting for yet another one from a more reputable manufacturer
3. Ultimately, I don't know whether blue light helped/helps; but I do know that I can't deal with the glare of these screens without an anti-glare protector on
4. I am able to use it without issues, or at least, without recognisable issues. I may have had some issues initially (eye strain, headaches), but I may have gotten used to the screen over time ... I say may, as I started using it over a period where I had general headaches/migraines/eye strain for other reasons
5. I generally use the phone with enough light around, even inside; I can use it when the environment is dark, but I find that the really low brightness levels do make me feel just a bit weird (would be no surprise, as the flicker % significantly increases there), as well as the colour of the screen just being off at lower brightness levels; also, I can't in fact make much out without enough backlight, even if I wanted

I'll keep at it for now, and will assess further. The iPhone 14, even non-Pro, is just a fantastically smooth phone (minus software bug annoyances).

I might try some of the newer Android high-PWM frequency phones, out of curiosity, and to see how their flicker % compares; perhaps even a LCD Android phone, to see if I feel a significant difference at all.

I've also read someone's comments over on Reddit in a thread on PWM_Sensitive, who said they had some inside information that Apple would be improving the situation with the iPhone 15, because of the growing awareness, and Chinese manufacturer's marketing on this topic ... two months an we'll find out 🤷‍♂️

 

[john g.]

So I've been using an iPhone 14 for about the past 2 weeks exclusively ... the general outcome is that I can use this phone quite well in day to day use.

I'll keep at it for now, and will assess further. The iPhone 14, even non-Pro, is just a fantastically smooth phone (minus software bug annoyances).

Good to hear I've been using my 14 since the middle of March and had very few issues. I'm running it without a screen protector because all the screen protectors I've used either magnify the glare or affect the resolution [matte protectors]

 

[du57in]

Does anyone have an exhaustive list of websites that test for PWM?

I have been using NotebookCheck (even though they are wildly inconsistent and I believe often wrong) as they seem to test everything, as well as RTings. Those two websites are at least partially conflicting with reviews of the 2020 MBA.

RTings says zero flicker at any brightness: https://www.rtings.com/laptop/reviews/apple/macbook-air-13-m1-2020

NotebookCheck says flicker at 49% and below: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...le-M1-CPU-humbles-Intel-and-AMD.508057.0.html

 

[Dejected]

Any updates on Iphone 15 ?

 

[5105973]

So I've been using an iPhone 14 for about the past 2 weeks exclusively ... the general outcome is that I can use this phone quite well in day to day use.

A few considerations:

1. I haven't customised any settings for the most part; that is, using it with auto-brightness on, no RWP set, no Night Shift during the day, True Tone on; I played around for a bit, with using it at 100% brightness, and RWP at around 90%, but that of course meant that it wasn't easily legible outside in full sunlight, and that it was difficult to use in very dark environments; so I quickly went away from a static setting
2. I initially used a Zagg anti blue light screen protector, which was nice enough, but didn't have enough anti-glare capability; I then got an anti blue light screen protector from Amazon, that said it had anti-glare -> unfortunately, it was nothing but glare; I am currently using a Belkin anti-glare one without blue light filter, while I'm waiting for yet another one from a more reputable manufacturer
3. Ultimately, I don't know whether blue light helped/helps; but I do know that I can't deal with the glare of these screens without an anti-glare protector on
4. I am able to use it without issues, or at least, without recognisable issues. I may have had some issues initially (eye strain, headaches), but I may have gotten used to the screen over time ... I say may, as I started using it over a period where I had general headaches/migraines/eye strain for other reasons
5. I generally use the phone with enough light around, even inside; I can use it when the environment is dark, but I find that the really low brightness levels do make me feel just a bit weird (would be no surprise, as the flicker % significantly increases there), as well as the colour of the screen just being off at lower brightness levels; also, I can't in fact make much out without enough backlight, even if I wanted

I'll keep at it for now, and will assess further. The iPhone 14, even non-Pro, is just a fantastically smooth phone (minus software bug annoyances).

I might try some of the newer Android high-PWM frequency phones, out of curiosity, and to see how their flicker % compares; perhaps even a LCD Android phone, to see if I feel a significant difference at all.

I've also read someone's comments over on Reddit in a thread on PWM_Sensitive, who said they had some inside information that Apple would be improving the situation with the iPhone 15, because of the growing awareness, and Chinese manufacturer's marketing on this topic ... two months an we'll find out 🤷‍♂️

OMG I hope Apple IS working on this for the 15 and I hope for 15 Pro.

I originally had absolutely zero intention of trading my 14 Pro Max away. If not for it giving me horrible migraines in the last couple of months I would love to keep it because in all other respects it’s been one of the best iPhones I’ve owned.

I instead got a refurbished 12 Pro Max. I can use it to my heart’s content but I do feel eye strain. No headaches or migraines just my eyes get tired. That’s not too bad.

But I have only had it a month. It took several months for my 14 Pro Max to become intolerable.

I did find out I much prefer the camera and algorithms on the 12 Pro Max. My subjects look just as they look to my naked eyes. They’re not over sharpened with fake AI f generated “details” that are barely visible to the naked eye. The color calibration looks better.

I hope this phone can work for me indefinitely because even if I were to upgrade to a 15 of some type, I’d want a solid backup I can use with no issues.

 

[pwm away]

An interesting bit from a fresh review of the Nothing Phone (2) here: Nothing Phone (2) initial review

As for me, I can't use this phone without glasses that correct for astigmatism at any brightness level without feeling awful.

I wonder if there is something to this, at least as an exacerbating factor

I had been wondering this myself separately, recently, as I am someone who needs glasses when working in front of a screen, but I can generally use phones without, although this is getting more difficult over time, and I notice it feels much better when do put my glasses on to use the phone

Presumably for PWM sensitive people, any little thing can make things worse ...

 

[5105973]

An interesting bit from a fresh review of the Nothing Phone (2) here: Nothing Phone (2) initial review



I wonder if there is something to this, at least as an exacerbating factor

I had been wondering this myself separately, recently, as I am someone who needs glasses when working in front of a screen, but I can generally use phones without, although this is getting more difficult over time, and I notice it feels much better when do put my glasses on to use the phone

Presumably for PWM sensitive people, any little thing can make things worse ...

When I was trying to watch the video Dan posted of his quick look at the Nothing Phone and he played with the lights on the back of the phone, my head started feeling so weird. I had to stop looking immediately and sit down and rest for a minute afterwards. I hope that phone doesn’t catch on too much or I won’t be able to go out in public and risk randomly encountering one flashing like that.

I see drones with crazy LED light shows at the beach all the time. I never get bothered by them. I know you’re talking about the display bothering people. That just means the whole phone is a toxic mess for me, from front to back.

 

[theriddler]

I bought a cheap refurb iPhone 13 Mini as I wanted to replace the screen to LCD. I don't have PWM with this phone! I wore my old prescription glasses in case it was due to eyesight, and still, no PWM. I have no problems using the iPad Mini 6 (I can't see the jelly scroll) and Apple Silicon MacBooks, 14", 16" and M1 Air.

I sold my first 13 Mini last year due to PWM. In the Apple Store, even the 14 Pro gave me a migraine after using it for only 5 minutes.

 

[andrewVL]

Hello. read this duscussion about pwm on 14 plus.

So that as a result? what is pwm on 14 plus. Is it worse then 14 pro max? read that pro max have pwm about 400 Hz

Is it really?

I have on my 14 plus diagonal lines like on this video.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/eye-strain-while-using-iphone-x-and-up.2085427/post-31679808

width of lines depend on level of brightnes.

After some hours use of 14P i have some tension in the eyes and little disconfort in head)
but may me this is because of my neurosis?

 

[asus389]

I bought a cheap refurb iPhone 13 Mini as I wanted to replace the screen to LCD. I don't have PWM with this phone! I wore my old prescription glasses in case it was due to eyesight, and still, no PWM. I have no problems using the iPad Mini 6 (I can't see the jelly scroll) and Apple Silicon MacBooks, 14", 16" and M1 Air.

I sold my first 13 Mini last year due to PWM. In the Apple Store, even the 14 Pro gave me a migraine after using it for only 5 minutes.

You mean you don’t have symptoms using the phone? Did you replace the screen with an LCD? Or does this newer 13 mini just not bother you with the stock screen?

 

[theriddler]

You mean you don’t have symptoms using the phone? Did you replace the screen with an LCD? Or does this newer 13 mini just not bother you with the stock screen?

This particular 13 Mini doesn't bother me anymore and I don't know why. However, a few months ago, the 14 Pro in the Apple store gave me a migraine after using it for 5 mins.

 

[5105973]

This particular 13 Mini doesn't bother me anymore and I don't know why. However, a few months ago, the 14 Pro in the Apple store gave me a migraine after using it for 5 mins.

Hey that’s great! Treasure that phone! Sometimes I think it’s not down to certain models but down to a particular phone! I mean it’s total luck of the draw for some of us.

I didn’t have any eye strain with my original 12 Pro Max. I have a little bit with my current one but not so bad that I can’t use it. I just have to use it in moderation. My original 12 Pro Max screen actually had a defective display and my current one doesn’t. Weird.

 

[jimmy_uk]

This particular 13 Mini doesn't bother me anymore and I don't know why. However, a few months ago, the 14 Pro in the Apple store gave me a migraine after using it for 5 mins.

Had the same thing with the iPhone 11 in the past = couldn't use it. The one I have now is perfect.

 

[asus389]

This particular 13 Mini doesn't bother me anymore and I don't know why. However, a few months ago, the 14 Pro in the Apple store gave me a migraine after using it for 5 mins.

I wonder if the screen was replaced with one from a different supplier when they refurbished it? Anyways, congrats on finding a device you can use!

 

[Dejected]

ok let's hope iphone 15 displays come up with higher pwm

 

[Heman87]

This particular 13 Mini doesn't bother me anymore and I don't know why. However, a few months ago, the 14 Pro in the Apple store gave me a migraine after using it for 5 mins.

This could be due the promotion display on the 14P. I also get a migraine using the promotion display. Try to turn it off next time if you test it and see if you still get a migraine

 

[Abiyork]

Lots of rumours the standard Ip15 will be a 60hz display with the pro models having 120hz.

Does this news have any significance to the PWM?

 

[Heman87]

Lots of rumours the standard Ip15 will be a 60hz display with the pro models having 120hz.

Does this news have any significance to the PWM?

No, probably not

 

[PwmMen]

Good news for all PWM sufferers, the Nothing Phone 2:
"The OLED on the Nothing Phone (2) uses a PWM rate of 1920Hz at the default dynamic refresh rate (1-120Hz). Running at 90Hz bumps, the PWM rate up to 2,160Hz, making it far more view-friendly than any phone Samsung or Apple has made in years. However, there's no way to force this 90Hz mode, so that rate could be irrelevant for everyday use."
Look here:

Nothing Phone (2) Review: Nothing but a good phone

A little bit gimmicky but mostly just a solid entry into the smartphone space.

www.androidcentral.com

Despite this, the writer of the article got problems with his eyes. In my opinion, the PWM frequency is very high.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Good news for all PWM sufferers, the Nothing Phone 2:
"The OLED on the Nothing Phone (2) uses a PWM rate of 1920Hz at the default dynamic refresh rate (1-120Hz). Running at 90Hz bumps, the PWM rate up to 2,160Hz, making it far more view-friendly than any phone Samsung or Apple has made in years. However, there's no way to force this 90Hz mode, so that rate could be irrelevant for everyday use."
Look here:

Nothing Phone (2) Review: Nothing but a good phone

A little bit gimmicky but mostly just a solid entry into the smartphone space.

www.androidcentral.com

Despite this, the writer of the article got problems with his eyes. In my opinion, the PWM frequency is very high.

It's a "nope” from me:

"This display, for instance, flickers at an extremely high rate — nearly 10x what Samsung Galaxy and Pixel phones with OLED displays do — but it also modulates quite a bit at all brightness levels. From what I can tell, it's that deeper modulation that drives my eyes crazy and, ultimately, what makes this phone difficult to use compared to phones like the Motorola Edge+ (2023).


Using a high-speed shutter and high ISO rate to analyze the PWM dimming method, it seems that anything above 47% brightness should be relatively OK for most people. Go below 47%, however, and some craziness begins to ensue. If you own the phone, I wouldn't recommend going below this brightness level if you have sensitive eyes."

 

[asus389]

I just put a new screen and battery on my 6S. This thing is like such a joy to look at. Lol.

For those of you who are wanting to keep your old phones going, uBreakiFix will fix older phones using original Apple parts. I don’t work there or have anything to do with them, but they were willing to help me with my 6S even though it’s basically out of support with Apple.

 

[jimmy_uk]

I need to get ahead of this before the new iPhone madness season starts again! I still need a mobile computer as my ageing eyes no longer like using my iPhone 11 as mini, mini tablet all the time. I do still want an iPad for convenience and quick usage but it seems I cannot use any of the Pro iPads due to either PWM or dithering.

It's looking like the only iPad my eyes are comfortable with is iPad 9 but I haven't tried the 10 or Air 4/5. This feels like the time I resisted buying an iPhone 11 as it was an older design without all the bells and whistles - the iPad 9 doesn't appeal. The 10 looks better on paper, even if it's just for the stereo speakers and is supposed to be PWM and dithering-free. But the UK pricing is too damn high. If I've got to spend nearly £500 I could buy an iPad Air 4 for £400 or a refurbished iPad Pro 2020, well I could if my eyes tolerated their displays which I doubt as they both have DCI-P3, usually introducing dithering.

I was going to swear off iPads and just get a Macbook Air M2 but I keep reading posts suggesting there are sensitive users struggling with the displays. £2000 in the hope I can use the laptop is a big gamble. I've done too many returns over the last year, I really don't fancy popping into my local store wanting a £2k refund if the MBA doesn't work for me as that will bring out a manager to authorise and questions asked. Damn it.....

 

[Populus]

I need to get ahead of this before the new iPhone madness season starts again! I still need a mobile computer as my ageing eyes no longer like using my iPhone 11 as mini, mini tablet all the time. I do still want an iPad for convenience and quick usage but it seems I cannot use any of the Pro iPads due to either PWM or dithering.

It's looking like the only iPad my eyes are comfortable with is iPad 9 but I haven't tried the 10 or Air 4/5. This feels like the time I resisted buying an iPhone 11 as it was an older design without all the bells and whistles - the iPad 9 doesn't appeal. The 10 looks better on paper, even if it's just for the stereo speakers and is supposed to be PWM and dithering-free. But the UK pricing is too damn high. If I've got to spend nearly £500 I could buy an iPad Air 4 for £400 or a refurbished iPad Pro 2020, well I could if my eyes tolerated their displays which I doubt as they both have DCI-P3, usually introducing dithering.

I was going to swear off iPads and just get a Macbook Air M2 but I keep reading posts suggesting there are sensitive users struggling with the displays. £2000 in the hope I can use the laptop is a big gamble. I've done too many returns over the last year, I really don't fancy popping into my local store wanting a £2k refund if the MBA doesn't work for me as that will bring out a manager to authorise and questions asked. Damn it.....

I totally get you having a manager authorizing your return. Lately, my returns have been always had to be authorized by a manager, does this mean they have my credit card on some sort of black list? Or is it the usual procedure for purchases of $800 and above?

It sucks to have to play the screen lottery and being scrutinized this way, I feel the same each time I don’t tolerate a screen and have to return the device on the Apple Store.

By the way, if I were you, I’d really, really give a try to the 10th generation iPad. If the manufacturer is the same as the 9th gen iPad, it could be easy on your eyes and with a modern design at the same time. Or… you can wait for an 11th gen iPad with an A15.

 

[Populus]

Hey, I wanted to ask in this thread if there’s anyone here who has more issues with regular OLED screens than with OLED Pro-Motion (high refresh rate) displays. I mean, anyone here finds better to use an iPhone 14 Pro rather than a regular 14?

Because after testing some in store, I find slightly more confortable the Pro displays, but that doesn’t match the experiences I’ve read on this thread.