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I added the Edge 40 to the comparison: https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=12127&idPhone2=12251&idPhone3=12204

Interestingly, the Edge 40 Pro's and Edge+ (2023)'s screens are listed as OLED, whereas the Edge 40's is listed as P-OLED.

Unsure whether this is a mistake, or accurate (I thought Motorola's OLED phones were all P-OLED); this may be important, as from what I've read so far, it's the P-OLED screen that is different and has better overall PWM and a DC Dimming mode.
 
I added the Edge 40 to the comparison: https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=12127&idPhone2=12251&idPhone3=12204

Interestingly, the Edge 40 Pro's and Edge+ (2023)'s screens are listed as OLED, whereas the Edge 40's is listed as P-OLED.

Unsure whether this is a mistake, or accurate (I thought Motorola's OLED phones were all P-OLED); this may be important, as from what I've read so far, it's the P-OLED screen that is different and has better overall PWM and a DC Dimming mode.
The Edge 40 Pro is listed on the Motorola website as:

Display Technology
  • pOLED
 
Nicholas Sutrich has been on a good mission on Android Central lately and his latest one is a great summary of what’s wrong with PWM. I admire the balance he achieves between technical details and general readability and comprehensiveness.

 
"Above 35%, the Motorola Edge Plus (2023) uses DC dimming to achieve a flicker-free display."

Is this real? I have read the post and watched the video, although I still see the black bar on the screen that supposedly corresponds to dc dimming.

But I'm already confused, pwm vs dc dimming, which is better? Is there any difference regarding our visual comfort? Because over the years I have seen mobiles with dc dimming but they still caused problems.

 
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"Above 35%, the Motorola Edge Plus (2023) uses DC dimming to achieve a flicker-free display."

Is this real? I have read the post and watched the video, although I still see the black bar on the screen that supposedly corresponds to dc dimming.

But I'm already confused, pwm vs dc dimming, which is better? Is there any difference regarding our visual comfort? Because over the years I have seen mobiles with dc dimming but they still caused problems.


DC dimming is typically more comfortable as the target brightness level is achieved by running a diminished amount of current to the pixels instead of just flashing the pixels fully on/fully off hundreds of time a second. DC dimming, however, has a drawback with skewing the colors in the lower brightness levels. That's why the Motorola Edge Plus switches to PWM when brightness gets low enough for DC dimming to distort colors. Above the 35% threshold it uses DC dimming for eye comfort. That's a reasonable compromise if you ask me, although even better would be if there was a setting "I appreciate my eye health more than color accuracy, give me DC dimming anytime, anywhere".
 
This made me loose all hope for me to use a OLED display phone :(
I’m sensitive to pwm but can use some of the OLED phones. I’m on a 12 Pro Max and I’m doing well on it. Not perfect, I can feel sleepy on it after awhile which is a sign I’m being affected. But that’s a big difference from outright suffering that I was starting to experience after 7 months on the 14 Pro Max.

I have an S22 Ultra that is completely comfortable and an S23 Ultra that has a lot of flicker, but I can use it as much as I need to. The OLED display on my Pixel 7a is about the similar level of comfort as that of the S23 Ultra, in that I can feel “something” but it’s not outright discomfort.

The important thing to me is that I’m able to switch among these phones without issue. Sometimes pwm on one phone will render me unable to use any OLED displays until I recover. This happened to me with the 13 Pro Max.

Last night on my last day of availability I did buy Apple Care + for my 12 Pro Max since out of my 12 Mini, IPhone 11, iPhone SE3 and iPhone 14 Pro Max, it’s the ONLY iPhone I can use as long as I need without noticing serious neurological consequences. Even my LCD iPhones cause an issue which is peripheral blindness due to a white flicker that forms at the edge of my vision.
 
Android Central has this: https://androidcentral.com/phones/iphone-se-4-display-rumor

It would nice to see something about the PWM issue on MR frontpage as well.
It really helps that finally there is a journalist as heavily afflicted by pwm sensitivity as we voiceless peasants are. And he has serious guts. You know a lot of journalists are probably reluctant to touch this topic lest they get shunned on opportunities to cover new product releases.
 
I’m sensitive to pwm but can use some of the OLED phones. I’m on a 12 Pro Max and I’m doing well on it. Not perfect, I can feel sleepy on it after awhile which is a sign I’m being affected. But that’s a big difference from outright suffering that I was starting to experience after 7 months on the 14 Pro Max.

I have an S22 Ultra that is completely comfortable and an S23 Ultra that has a lot of flicker, but I can use it as much as I need to. The OLED display on my Pixel 7a is about the similar level of comfort as that of the S23 Ultra, in that I can feel “something” but it’s not outright discomfort.

The important thing to me is that I’m able to switch among these phones without issue. Sometimes pwm on one phone will render me unable to use any OLED displays until I recover. This happened to me with the 13 Pro Max.

Last night on my last day of availability I did buy Apple Care + for my 12 Pro Max since out of my 12 Mini, IPhone 11, iPhone SE3 and iPhone 14 Pro Max, it’s the ONLY iPhone I can use as long as I need without noticing serious neurological consequences. Even my LCD iPhones cause an issue which is peripheral blindness due to a white flicker that forms at the edge of my vision.
I’m unfairly jealous that your good with the 12PM considering the journey you’ve had to go through trying to find and use a device that doesn’t give you harsh symptoms. After reading your comments, I find myself instantly checking the Apple refurb store and mulling over the idea of buying a 12PM….then I remember we are so close to the 15 series which might just “be the one” 🤦‍♂️

I’ve been on the ledge of just going ahead and ordering a Moto Edge 40 Pro and giving it a chance considering the report that it works for sensitive users + it’s a flagship model. But my Apple Stockholm syndrome kicks in and I just can’t bring myself to believe I want to go through all the hassle and drama of switching to Android. All the manual work I would need to do to get my digital life off the iCloud, iPhone, keychain and onto Google services. Added to the fact there is no desktop backup software from Motorola which would trigger my fear of losing everything while iTunes backups have saved me many a time.

*Edit: This is a terrible thing to read back to myself. Sticking to Apple for ease and convenience despite not being able to use any of their flagship products. The road with Apple has been a long one at I'm defaulting to the negative human trait of being comfortable and fearing change.

Maybe the 15 Series will be so much better? One can only hope. Another year of crushing disappointment would be too much. At least there is another option with the Moto phone.
 
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I’ve been on the ledge of just going ahead and ordering a Moto Edge 40 Pro and giving it a chance considering the report that it works for sensitive users + it’s a flagship model. But my Apple Stockholm syndrome kicks in and I just can’t bring myself to believe I want to go through all the hassle and drama of switching to Android. All the manual work I would need to do to get my digital life off the iCloud, iPhone, keychain and onto Google services. Added to the fact there is no desktop backup software from Motorola which would trigger my fear of losing everything while iTunes backups have saved me many a time.

One thing that would make the possible transition less painful is moving your passwords from keychain to a more cross-platform service while still on iOS. I've been a happy 1Password customer for years and it works great on both platforms and that's what I primarily use on iOS as well. Keychain is lucky to get a handful of throwaway passwords every now and then, but the only copy of anything important is not there.
 
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One thing that would make the possible transition less painful is moving your passwords from keychain to a more cross-platform service while still on iOS. I've been a happy 1Password customer for years and it works great on both platforms and that's what I primarily use on iOS as well. Keychain is lucky to get a handful of throwaway passwords every now and then, but the only copy of anything important is not there.
I do have 1Password 7 which has been free to use for years but doesn’t give me an account I can transfer to other devices. I assume I need to subscribe for this feature?
 
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I do have 1Password 7 which has been free to use for years but doesn’t give me an account I can transfer to other devices. I assume I need to subscribe for this feature?

Cloud sync is behind a paywall indeed. For me it has been a no-brainer purchase considering how much easier things have been regarding multi-device and multi-platform use.
 
I’m unfairly jealous that your good with the 12PM considering the journey you’ve had to go through trying to find and use a device that doesn’t give you harsh symptoms. After reading your comments, I find myself instantly checking the Apple refurb store and mulling over the idea of buying a 12PM….then I remember we are so close to the 15 series which might just “be the one” 🤦‍♂️

I’ve been on the ledge of just going ahead and ordering a Moto Edge 40 Pro and giving it a chance considering the report that it works for sensitive users + it’s a flagship model. But my Apple Stockholm syndrome kicks in and I just can’t bring myself to believe I want to go through all the hassle and drama of switching to Android. All the manual work I would need to do to get my digital life off the iCloud, iPhone, keychain and onto Google services. Added to the fact there is no desktop backup software from Motorola which would trigger my fear of losing everything while iTunes backups have saved me many a time.

*Edit: This is a terrible thing to read back to myself. Sticking to Apple for ease and convenience despite not being able to use any of their flagship products. The road with Apple has been a long one at I'm defaulting to the negative human trait of being comfortable and fearing change.

Maybe the 15 Series will be so much better? One can only hope. Another year of crushing disappointment would be too much. At least there is another option with the Moto phone.
I’ve been trying to go full Android for a few years now. I did it once briefly in 2016. Unfortunately where I live, among the other parents I do the bulk of my communication and photo sharing with, it’s on iOS. We have a couple of Android users but the problem is even within Android in the USA people aren’t standardized on the messaging services and photo storage/sharing services we use.

So there’s a few hoops to go through to accommodate someone on Android. It’s a point of friction on a device whose central function is communication.

I also just find it easier to conduct business on my iPhone. Face ID is almost a seamless authenticator into my accounts whereas in-display Touch ID either isn’t always well integrated into apps or check out systems or just won’t consistently accept my print when it is integrated.

So I don’t feel bad admitting I am stuck with my iPhone. I run Android on my secondary number. I haven’t been able to run it on my primary number since 2016. It’s not the hardware per se, but iOS and the hardware running in tandem and relatively seamlessly across a variety of devices like MacBooks and iPads.

But I don’t want to do without Android, either. There are some fine points my Samsung is strong and so is my Pixel.
 
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The OFF/ON nature of these displays causes our iris to open and close - our eye starts to contract like a muscle. The lower the frequency of this flicker the bigger our iris contractions and the more we feel eye pain. Eye pain/fatigue can lead to headaches and/or nausea or the feeling of motion sickness.
Still, I don’t get it. If the optical nerve does not see the signal, how can the brain give the instructions to the muscles?
 
Uhmmm, maybe it is my background as a photonics scientist, bunwhat is the « signal » the eye detects that is contracting the muscle. As far as I am aware, only the rods and cones in the retina can transform the light into signal that can be used by the brain for reactive functions (eye closing or opening, blinking, averting light etc.) if the sensor is not sensitive (for example in the infrared wavelengt range), then the eye does not react (this is why IR is potentiall’y dangerous since there is no blinking reflex).

by the same token if the light is modulated faster than the response time of the photosensitive cells, the light is effectively invisible and there is no signal that the brain can use… hence my question
 
Uhmmm, maybe it is my background as a photonics scientist, bunwhat is the « signal » the eye detects that is contracting the muscle. As far as I am aware, only the rods and cones in the retina can transform the light into signal that can be used by the brain for reactive functions (eye closing or opening, blinking, averting light etc.) if the sensor is not sensitive (for example in the infrared wavelengt range), then the eye does not react (this is why IR is potentiall’y dangerous since there is no blinking reflex).

by the same token if the light is modulated faster than the response time of the photosensitive cells, the light is effectively invisible and there is no signal that the brain can use… hence my question
I personally don’t know as I’m not a neuroscientist nor an ophthalmologist or whatever I would need to be to explain any of this and I’m not sure any of us laymen contributing to this thread could, as a lot of us have already come to an impasse with our doctors.

My own opthamologist expressed an interest in what I was telling him, but all he could do was make sure the structure of my eyes were healthy. I’d have to take any other issues to a different specialist and I have very limited access to those right now.

I’d have a wait of almost a year for a non emergency appointment at most specialists on my insurance. And I’m in no position to make an appointment nearly a year from now. I just can’t hit that sort of target with my responsibilities and commitments right now. And to address a mysterious complaint that is so vague and weird I don’t know if I want to put myself through that after what I went through trying to get a more straightforward medical problem addressed.

Lol a few months ago, I was in excruciating agony all night with something that was either a UTI or a kidney stone or a bladder crystal (I will never know what it was, only that the test was inconclusive) and couldn’t get an in person appointment with my regular doctor and had to do everything via phone even after Covid subsided here. I first tried tele health while waiting for my actual doctor to return my call. Both tele health and my doctor advised the same. And that was go to a lab and give a urine sample that told us basically nothing.

I was given a blanket antibiotic prescription to cover all bases while we waited about 2 weeks for results that showed nothing unusual. Fortunately the pain went away somehow. After which the doctor had a minion call to tell me basically “All’s well that ends well. That will be $300 Kthanksbye”. (Actually I don’t remember how much I was charged for that but it wasn’t cheap even with insurance).

So when it comes to pwm, I just know what I’m living with but not how or why. And someone posted awhile back on this thread there are even weapons being developed that use something like pwm flashing to disrupt the nervous system.
 
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Uhmmm, maybe it is my background as a photonics scientist, but what is the « signal » the eye detects that is contracting the muscle? As far as I am aware, only the rods and cones in the retina can transform the light into a signal that can be used by the brain for reactive functions (eye closing or opening, blinking, averting light etc.) if the sensor is not sensitive (for example in the infrared wavelengt range), then the eye does not react (this is why IR is potentiall’y dangerous since there is no blinking reflex).

by the same token if the light is modulated faster than the response time of the photosensitive cells, the light is effectively invisible and there is no signal that the brain can use… hence my question

But is the light coming from the OLED display modulating fast enough and in a steady pattern to not be picked up by the rods and cones in the eye? There are also dithering, auto brightness and refresh rate changes to consider along with the ambient light around us. Our eyes must be rapidly reacting to all the sensory information. I don't understand the science, I only know the debilitating effects caused to my eyes and brain when using these devices. This is something that I have never experienced before using the iPhone X and subsequent phones + iPads.

Who measured and decided the modulation speed that the human eye can see and not see? Genuine question as I've seen many people state that our eyes should not be able to see fast PWM. Colours, smells, taste and the perception of the world are all experienced differently. Clearly, as you state to have a background in Photonics, you could share and educate us with valuable information to bring a greater understanding of what might be the route cause.

Full disclosure, I have short-sighted vision with an astigmatism. I wear corrective contact lenses that give me what I feel is perfect vision, allowing me to use a desktop computer all day for work and an OLED TV in the evening with no issues. I work as a graphic designer and scrutinise the smallest of details (and see all minor errors). It's possible my corrective lenses or glasses are adding a factor in how my eyes receive light from these iPhones and tablets.

My most recent experience: Using the newer iPhones with PWM and 120hz refresh rates causes a bizarre swimming feeling when looking away from them. The screens move so smoothly it almost feels unnatural making everything around me look slow with a slight tunnel effect for a few seconds, then I feel the strain in my eye muscles - the early warning to stop looking. The light coming off these screens feels strong and bright like a torch is being shined onto my eyes, this is not something I experience with LCD iPhones. Having tried to preserve before has led to an almighty migraine that has wiped me out for a whole day. Some of the iPhones, like the standard 12 and 13, have had less instant negative effects (I was able to use them for several days) but the eye fatigue would build and a headache would form.

I now find I cannot use the iPad Pros as these also have PMW, and even though the 11” M1 version is reported as not having PWM, I still get eye fatigue. So I have to conclude that dithering is playing a part or maybe the light-emitting technology and/or display drivers? Something most certainly is not right with the displays for me and I'm not alone, the voices on the internet have been getting louder over recent years.
 
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I’m definitely ready to upgrade from iPhone SE this year…

Unfortunately, there’s been no indication of PWM being reduced this year and getting hopes up usually only leads to disappointment.

At the same time, iPhone 15 should be the next major iPhone generation so maybe we can expect more significant changes?

I tell myself not to pre-order; meanwhile, I’m here looking forward to next month.
 
So abit of a funny one

I suffer from pwm iv got the iphone 11 which is doing an ok job

This week i went and got the iphone 14 base and used it and after a day i had some pains in my eyes and a dull lingering pain so i went got the iphone 14 pro much better phone

I had slight pain no way as near as iphone 14 and then pain went but didnt feel as comfrotable as iphone 11 but defo usable

I had reduce white point
Turned off promotion

And the phone felt decent

Thought id update u guys
 
So abit of a funny one

I suffer from pwm iv got the iphone 11 which is doing an ok job

This week i went and got the iphone 14 base and used it and after a day i had some pains in my eyes and a dull lingering pain so i went got the iphone 14 pro much better phone

I had slight pain no way as near as iphone 14 and then pain went but didnt feel as comfrotable as iphone 11 but defo usable

I had reduce white point
Turned off promotion

And the phone felt decent

Thought id update u guys
I never tried to turn off promotion. Can you turn it back on and see if it gets worse ? When you say decent you mean no nausea / dizziness / head pain / tired eyes etc ?
 
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Hard to believe after nearly 6 years 38% of people on here have this problem, have never come across 1 person in real life myself.
In real life is this something people talk about/are aware of? People I know still look at me like I’m a talking penguin when I mention PWM, it’s not something they have anything to reference as they have not experienced it.
 
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