Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[now i see it]

Any LCD screen of apple’s that touts “Wide gamut” color or “billions” of colors is using a cheat to fool the eyes into thinking they’re seeing colors that don’t actually exist.
That technique (cheat) is referred to as Temporal Dithering. (TD).

Much like PWM brightness dimming in OLED displays, TD flashes (flickers) adjacent colors on and off at a very high frequency to fool the eyes into seeing a color that’s sort of the average of the two. Example, flash an adjacent red and blue pixel on and of and the eyes see purple.
The screen isn’t projecting purple- just the eyes think their seeing purple.

To do this cheat requires color flickering. Most people can not detect it, while some people experience negative nervous system effects due to the high frequency flickering.

@MICHAELSD mentioned above that the 11” iPad Pro doesn’t bother him at all — so maybe check that model out.

 

[now i see it]

Well, well, well……that was a boring keynote. That said, the natural titanium 15PM is calling to me. Looks like I’ll play again and preorder.

That’s the one I’m going to try. This year (in the USA) the extended return period ran from Nov 5 all the way to Jan 8. That’s two months. If you bought a new iPhone to try out Nov 5, you could experiment with it for two months before returning it — to see if you could tolerate the screen.

So that’s what I’m going to do. Order mine Nov 5 (if the dates are the same this year). I’m not sure I’ll be able to make a hard and final decision within the normal 2 week return period.

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

Well, time once again to deal with this ish. I find zero reason to believe this will be any different. That said, I am going to pre-order a pro model. Just not sure which size. I am 6'7 with large hands and can use both phones one handed. The big screen is nice in so many situations. But, the smaller size and lighter weight is also enticing. Decisions.....

 

[ghanwani]

I know this issue is not going to be fixed, so here's hoping for Apple to release an LCD phone for the next SE.

 

[MICHAELSD]

The more I learn about how amazing iPhone 15 Pro is going to be, the more willing I am to give it a chance.

Are we to believe that Apple didn’t pair the super advanced A17 Pro with a sophisticated new brightness controller? It seems like one of the last boxes to tick to create the ‘Ultimate’ iPhone experience.

A familiar design honestly doesn’t give me much hope since my mind can already picture the PWM flickering and flashbacks of 24/7 persistent headaches, but maybe this iPhone will be different. Either way I’m due for a new phone, and if it’s not iPhone 15 I’m not sure what it would be…

 

[Maven1975]

Just holding on tighter to my iPhone 11. 😡

 

[jm31828]

Any LCD screen of apple’s that touts “Wide gamut” color or “billions” of colors is using a cheat to fool the eyes into thinking they’re seeing colors that don’t actually exist.
That technique (cheat) is referred to as Temporal Dithering. (TD).

Much like PWM brightness dimming in OLED displays, TD flashes (flickers) adjacent colors on and off at a very high frequency to fool the eyes into seeing a color that’s sort of the average of the two. Example, flash an adjacent red and blue pixel on and of and the eyes see purple.
The screen isn’t projecting purple- just the eyes think their seeing purple.

To do this cheat requires color flickering. Most people can not detect it, while some people experience negative nervous system effects due to the high frequency flickering.

@MICHAELSD mentioned above that the 11” iPad Pro doesn’t bother him at all — so maybe check that model out.

Thanks for that explanation!
It must be the temporal dithering that was bothering me when I tried several SE 2022's last Fall. I wanted that phone to work because of the LCD, no PWM- but for some reason it made my eyes feel so dry, a slight burning sensation, and sometimes they would even water.

I had the same sensation with any iPads I tried- the Air 5, and even the 10th generation.
I do not have that with my old 2015 MacBook Air, and interestingly don't have it on my 27" iMac from 2017... not sure if that display is able to better display more colors natively, thus less temporal dithering?

So, I am on an iPhone 13 Mini for now- it doesn't make my eyes feel that way, but I think I do also have some sensitivity to PWM, as I occasionally feel some pain in my left eye when using it.

 

[PwmMen]

Hello,
I will test the iPhone 15 Pro Max and the iPhone 15 Plus.
I'm excited, but don't expect too much. My iPhone 12 Pro is still flawless.
So I can still use it for a year if it has to be. But I would love to switch to a new iPhone.
If both do not go, I will test the Google Pixel 8 Pro in October.

 

[Heman87]

Hello,
I will test the iPhone 15 Pro Max and the iPhone 15 Plus.
I'm excited, but don't expect too much. My iPhone 12 Pro is still flawless.
So I can still use it for a year if it has to be. But I would love to switch to a new iPhone.
If both do not go, I will test the Google Pixel 8 Pro in October.

At least you can use the 12 pro. Im still using a iphone 11 :'(. If the 15p doesnt work out for me i will try to buy a refurbished iphone 11 or make a swith to a motorola or a honor phone

 

[jimmy_uk]

At least you can use the 12 pro. Im still using a iphone 11 :'(. If the 15p doesnt work out for me i will try to buy a refurbished iphone 11 or make a swith to a motorola or a honor phone

The 11 is surprisingly great although my battery is already dropping in less than a year. If I can’t use the 15 series and switch to Android I will likely keep my 11 and replace the battery.

Best of luck to all. 🤞

 

[ocean10]

Thanks for that explanation!
It must be the temporal dithering that was bothering me when I tried several SE 2022's last Fall. I wanted that phone to work because of the LCD, no PWM- but for some reason it made my eyes feel so dry, a slight burning sensation, and sometimes they would even water.

I had the same sensation with any iPads I tried- the Air 5, and even the 10th generation.
I do not have that with my old 2015 MacBook Air, and interestingly don't have it on my 27" iMac from 2017... not sure if that display is able to better display more colors natively, thus less temporal dithering?

So, I am on an iPhone 13 Mini for now- it doesn't make my eyes feel that way, but I think I do also have some sensitivity to PWM, as I occasionally feel some pain in my left eye when using it.

Something seems to have changed with the newest iOS and potentially temporal dithering (which maybe why some people have no issues with the SE 2022 and others don't - could just be iOS versions). I have two iPad Pro 1st Generations that traditionally gave me issues at all (newer iPad Pros all gave me issues). I updated one of my iPad Pros to iOS 16.5 and immediately I started getting the familiar dizziness, "fog", slight nausea etc. The other iPad with iOS 16.2 is perfect. Nothing in the release notes for iOS 16.5 says anything about graphics changes but it almost seems like now some sort of dithering is being use. I can put both of them next to each other and I can't "see" any difference other than one now makes me sick and the other doesn't.

I have an iPhone SE 2022 that gives me no issues at all. But I'm on iOS 16.1 and I'm scared to update it because I don't want to lose the last phone I can use.

 

[now i see it]

I will test the iPhone 15 Pro Max and the iPhone 15 Plus.

That will be a godsend.
The ONE magical setting we all want to know is —- what setting of Brightness and Reduce White Point provides the least amount of flickering.
That way we’ll know the ideal setting and either use it or use it as a starting point.

Brightness 75% and Reduce White Point 85% ??????. We’re all dying to know the magic numbers,

THANKS!!!!!!!

 

[jm31828]

Something seems to have changed with the newest iOS and potentially temporal dithering (which maybe why some people have no issues with the SE 2022 and others don't - could just be iOS versions). I have two iPad Pro 1st Generations that traditionally gave me issues at all (newer iPad Pros all gave me issues). I updated one of my iPad Pros to iOS 16.5 and immediately I started getting the familiar dizziness, "fog", slight nausea etc. The other iPad with iOS 16.2 is perfect. Nothing in the release notes for iOS 16.5 says anything about graphics changes but it almost seems like now some sort of dithering is being use. I can put both of them next to each other and I can't "see" any difference other than one now makes me sick and the other doesn't.

I have an iPhone SE 2022 that gives me no issues at all. But I'm on iOS 16.1 and I'm scared to update it because I don't want to lose the last phone I can use.

Interesting- sorry you've started having those issues!

Any idea why old Mac devices seem OK- my MacBook Air 2015 and iMac 27" from 2017? The MacBook Air makes sense as it is not listed as having P3 color gamut, but the iMac is listed a that, but it doesn't bother me.... I wonder if those do not use temporal dithering? Or the Intel hardware vs. the Apple silicon is the difference, works in a different way to display the colors?

 

[jm31828]

That will be a godsend.
The ONE magical setting we all want to know is —- what setting of Brightness and Reduce White Point provides the least amount of flickering.
That way we’ll know the ideal setting and either use it or use it as a starting point.

Brightness 75% and Reduce White Point 85% ??????. We’re all dying to know the magic numbers,

THANKS!!!!!!!

Absolutely.... brightness bothers me, too, so I am one who cannot have 80% brightness like some people can, I truly need it down to about 20%- but on these OLED displays that is horrible for flicker.

I have read so much about the regular 14 and 14 Plus how they were pretty easy on the eyes for most- fingers crossed that the 15's are another step in the right direction.

 

[ocean10]

Interesting- sorry you've started having those issues!

Any idea why old Mac devices seem OK- my MacBook Air 2015 and iMac 27" from 2017? The MacBook Air makes sense as it is not listed as having P3 color gamut, but the iMac is listed a that, but it doesn't bother me.... I wonder if those do not use temporal dithering? Or the Intel hardware vs. the Apple silicon is the difference, works in a different way to display the colors?

I'm not sure. What I do know is that I have issues with what seems like virtually all "modern" screens on laptops/computers whether they are LCD or LED. Something seems to have changed with technology in the 2014-2016 range. Not sure if it's the screens themselves or how software is rendering things. For work I use a Lenovo Thinkpad that is roughly the same age as your MacBook and iMac. No issues at all and I can look at it all day and be fully comfortable. My coworkers with newer Thinkpads I get the familiar sick feeling. OLED iPhones are the worst for me (I used to be a Day 1 upgrader for all iPhones. The day I got the iPhone X and was setting it up I almost called 911 because I got so sick. I didn't realize it was from phone since whatever causes the issue isn't visually obvious)

Not sure if you are also on ledstrain.org but there are MANY people on there with similar issues and I've seen the MacBook/iMac discussion on there in the past as well.

 

[now i see it]

I am one who cannot have 80% brightness like some people can, I truly need it down to about 20%- but on these OLED displays that is horrible for flicker

I’ve been thinking about this - since the iPhone 15 pros are supposedly even brighter than the 14s.

What we need is a neutral density gray screen protector that darkens the output of the screen. That way we can run it at 85-90% in a darkened room and not get blasted by the brightness or flickering.
For camera lenses they’re available in different f-stops from very light gray to dark.
You can get the filters at pro camera shops online — but they’re just gelatin filters without a way to attach to an iPhone.
Someone needs to make dark screen protectors !

 

[Ameer_1]

I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but Walmart has a Straight Talk iPhone SE (3rd Gen) deal for $149 right now.

They also have the iPhone 11 for $249.

Both are brand new, in-box phones. Activate with Straight Talk for one month of service and then wait 61 days--they will automatically unlock it and then it can be used with other carriers.

Kind of a neat trick to get PWM-free phones.

Do you have to wait another 61 days? Right now I got the SE 3rd gen I got the cheapest plan and the 1 month ends 9/20/2023

 

[DJTaurus]

Absolutely.... brightness bothers me, too, so I am one who cannot have 80% brightness like some people can, I truly need it down to about 20%- but on these OLED displays that is horrible for flicker.

I have read so much about the regular 14 and 14 Plus how they were pretty easy on the eyes for most- fingers crossed that the 15's are another step in the right direction.

Brightness is different with oleds. On an LCD I use it around 50% indoors and 80-100% outdoors with no issues. With oleds no issues indoors even with 100%. Oleds don’t have that over bright effect LCDs have. They are more natural.

My journey this year will gonna start with 15 plus. Let’s see how it goes…

 

[lawlbringer]

Oh boy...another Russian roulette seeing how bad the eye strain will be.

At this point my IPhone 11 is just too long in the tooth. I'll probably try to grab a new iPhone 15 Pro and see if my eyes can adjust during the holiday return period. I really think my eye strain has less to do with PWM for me and more to do with the general oversaturation/brightness of modern OLED screens. I had a dull ache switching from an iPhone 6s to an iPhone XR that went away after a month or so. Here's hoping history repeats itself...

 

[now i see it]

I really think my eye strain has less to do with PWM for me and more to do with the general oversaturation/brightness of modern OLED screens.

It definitely is a big part of it. I have switched all my apple devices over to grayscale only display and it has made a huge difference for me. Giant improvement.
The first week or so going grayscale is a bit unsettling but after a while you (I) get used to it and it becomes preferable to the point that I almost feel the edge of panic now when I shift back to color for a moment to check a picture or something. The colors on an iPhone and Mac are obscene. way too oversaturated and intense. Nothing in the real world has colors like that. Its like a LSD drug trip.
A grayscale display is so much more calming and smooth.

The iPhone color pallet is like eating pancakes with maple syrup on top… and honey and brown sugar and white sugar and monosodium glutamate.

No wonder the world is addicted to them.

 

[jm31828]

I’ve been thinking about this - since the iPhone 15 pros are supposedly even brighter than the 14s.

What we need is a neutral density gray screen protector that darkens the output of the screen. That way we can run it at 85-90% in a darkened room and not get blasted by the brightness or flickering.
For camera lenses they’re available in different f-stops from very light gray to dark.
You can get the filters at pro camera shops online — but they’re just gelatin filters without a way to attach to an iPhone.
Someone needs to make dark screen protectors !

Yes, I had always wondered if some sort of neutral density screen protector existed, that would be perfect!

 

[jm31828]

It definitely is a big part of it. I have switched all my apple devices over to grayscale only display and it has made a huge difference for me. Giant improvement.
The first week or so going grayscale is a bit unsettling but after a while you (I) get used to it and it becomes preferable to the point that I almost feel the edge of panic now when I shift back to color for a moment to check a picture or something. The colors on an iPhone and Mac are obscene. way too oversaturated and intense. Nothing in the real world has colors like that. Its like a LSD drug trip.
A grayscale display is so much more calming and smooth.

The iPhone color pallet is like eating pancakes with maple syrup on top… and honey and brown sugar and white sugar and monosodium glutamate.

No wonder the world is addicted to them.

Great analogy!

I think I might be in that camp- I don't know if the PWM actually bothers me, or if it is the contrast and super bright, sharp colors... and brightness as well. Even on an OLED display, anything above about 20% brightness is just too much.

I had not thought at all about grayscale- I may check that out! Do you switch that off when you are taking pictures and recording videos?

I would love to get an iPhone 15, but have really not thought it would be worth it as I may just have to return it.... but if grayscale might work, wow that would be a game changer!

 

[jm31828]

I'm not sure. What I do know is that I have issues with what seems like virtually all "modern" screens on laptops/computers whether they are LCD or LED. Something seems to have changed with technology in the 2014-2016 range. Not sure if it's the screens themselves or how software is rendering things. For work I use a Lenovo Thinkpad that is roughly the same age as your MacBook and iMac. No issues at all and I can look at it all day and be fully comfortable. My coworkers with newer Thinkpads I get the familiar sick feeling. OLED iPhones are the worst for me (I used to be a Day 1 upgrader for all iPhones. The day I got the iPhone X and was setting it up I almost called 911 because I got so sick. I didn't realize it was from phone since whatever causes the issue isn't visually obvious)

Not sure if you are also on ledstrain.org but there are MANY people on there with similar issues and I've seen the MacBook/iMac discussion on there in the past as well.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I thought I was all alone with issues with some of these other devices.
Odd thing is that in a couple of cases- such as a MacBook Air M2 as well as the iPad 10th gen that I tried, Notebookcheck confirmed no PWM and no temporal dithering- so either their testing was incorrect in regards to temporal dithering, or there is something else about these displays that is bothersome.

Like you, my work laptop (a basic Dell) as well as the Dell external monitor I use for work are just fine, even using them for 10 or 11 hours per day.

I have browsed the LEDStrain forums, but will have to check it out in more detail.

 

[jimmy_uk]

I’m getting cold feet over the 15PM. To date, all of the Pro models have given me the worst reactions - and almost immediately. Debating if I should just get the 15 Plus instead 😣😰 But I want a flagship and the titanium frame will be a benefit on weight (plus I prefer the brushed finish).

 

[Abiyork]

Just a quick reminder as to my situation.

An iphone 12 pro triggered a neurology issue. I now have a cronic condition called NDPH and take a variety of prescription drugs and botox injections into my scalp to keep my pain manageable. My neurologist stated he seeing a lot more cases in recent years and he believes excessive exposure to screens could definitely be a contributing factor.

I am a very rare case admittedly, but if you feel the burning/nausea etc, dont give the device any longer. Stop and return it.

Best of luck with the 15's, I'll be watching from the sidelines....