When that happens, I will buy a 256 GB iPhone (3rd gen) and hold on to it for as long as possible.
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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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Well it's Nicholas Sutrich, who's been on a mission lately (and I salute him for that). I've linked to a couple of his articles earlier on this thread, but they're worth a re-run:
Apple's next mistake could force some users to switch to Android
Apple might be moving on and leaving some behind.
www.androidcentral.com
What is PWM display flicker, how to deal with it
This is why modern phones are hurting your eyes.
www.androidcentral.com
I still refuse to believe that Apple couldn’t fix this if they wanted to with all of their resources, and continue using OLED with a custom-designed flicker-free brightness controller.Well it's Nicholas Sutrich, who's been on a mission lately (and I salute him for that). I've linked to a couple of his articles earlier on this thread, but they're worth a re-run:
Apple's next mistake could force some users to switch to Android
Apple might be moving on and leaving some behind.
What is PWM display flicker, how to deal with it
This is why modern phones are hurting your eyes.
Innovate. Make it the standard specification.
I agree. I guess they are afraid of the color distortion that easily occurs with DC dimming, but if they realized what kind of hell some users (and also paying customers) are going through with their current implementation, I guess they would implement an option to pick between color accuracy and migraines, or more preferably put some dedicated effort on finding a no-compromise solution that works for everyone.
I’ve held out hope for an Accessibility option. It’s either DC dimming or flicker-free above a certain brightness percentage, or we’re excluded once again.
DC Dimming as an accessibility option would be a start. They could label it "I agree that color accuracy would be nice, but I'd still rather have fewer headaches" for all I care, but so far they've been reluctant to offer such an option even though it would a great relief for a subset of users. Not offering even an accessibility option feels like such an insult especially when they're pretending to care about eye health with iOS 17's watching distance detection features.
Apple doesn’t want to compromise on the experience which should be the same for everyone, hence why the OS is so locked down. Adding eye health accessibility options like DC dimming would raise too many questions I’m certain they don’t want to answer. Colour accuracy would take a hit, maybe the battery as well? That’s my glass half-empty thoughts……
I’d be perfectly happy if the screen went grayscale at a certain dimming level with DC dimming if it got rid of the flickering.
Make it an accessibility option.
Make it an accessibility option.
Hi everyone,
I've suffered with vestibular issues, increasing in intensity, for the last few years (diagnosis started as vestibular neuritis, now possibly migraines or vestibular migraines; adding a prism to one eyeglass lens helps some but not entirely).
Coming from those with sensitivities... Other than general use, when 'testing' out a newer iPhones, what features do you recommend using when looking for adverse reactions (ex: FaceID, scrolling on an OLED panel, etc...)? NOTE: I'm coming from a 6s+ and temporarily using an SE 2020. The older displays never bothered me, but typing on the smaller screen size is driving me nuts!
Thanks!
I've suffered with vestibular issues, increasing in intensity, for the last few years (diagnosis started as vestibular neuritis, now possibly migraines or vestibular migraines; adding a prism to one eyeglass lens helps some but not entirely).
Coming from those with sensitivities... Other than general use, when 'testing' out a newer iPhones, what features do you recommend using when looking for adverse reactions (ex: FaceID, scrolling on an OLED panel, etc...)? NOTE: I'm coming from a 6s+ and temporarily using an SE 2020. The older displays never bothered me, but typing on the smaller screen size is driving me nuts!
Thanks!
I think it’s pretty much a given that if a person reads several pages of this thread, they’ll experience some sort of negative reaction looking at the new iPhones simply due to psychogenesis (if that’s a word) aka psychosomatic.
Going into a new iPhone with dread and fear is bound to end up in failure
Personally... I’m going to order a 15Pro a few months from now and look at it as little as possible. Set it to grayscale and lots of reduced white point.
I figure (hope) that if I look at the screen for less than 3 minutes at a go before looking away and locking it - AND use it in bright light only (never in a dim room) maybe, just maybe I’ll be able to tolerate it.
I’m typing this out on an dreadful slow iPhone 6 Plus- so you can understand my desperation to get a modern iPhone
Going into a new iPhone with dread and fear is bound to end up in failure
Personally... I’m going to order a 15Pro a few months from now and look at it as little as possible. Set it to grayscale and lots of reduced white point.
I figure (hope) that if I look at the screen for less than 3 minutes at a go before looking away and locking it - AND use it in bright light only (never in a dim room) maybe, just maybe I’ll be able to tolerate it.
I’m typing this out on an dreadful slow iPhone 6 Plus- so you can understand my desperation to get a modern iPhone
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I go into each iPhone with the blind optimism that there won’t be persistent headaches this time.
Unfortunately we can’t control our reaction to the display.
Agreed. The first hour at least is all setup - logging into apps, making the settings just right etc. If a reaction is going to happen it usually occurs in this time where I’m not thinking about eye strain, I’m focused on the task.
I’m possibly going for 1 x Pro model and calling it a day whichever way it plays out.
It’s no biggie if I’m left out in the cold on the iPhone front once again as there are now Android options it seems.
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No history of epilepsy (myself or family), but I do have motion sickness in certain situations (for example, looking at the phone while in a moving car/bus).
I also generally have more frequent headaches/migraines.
I think people with those factors are likely more sensitive to PWM.
Personally, I am now in the process of migrating to apps/services that are platform independent.
I made the mistake of using lots of iCloud+ features, and iCloud Keychain, but this doesn't lend itself for being able to easily go between Android/iOS, Mac/Windows.
I've also gotten myself a low end Motorola G14, which I will give a try, to see how I deal with Android (in all likelihood, I don't expect issues). I tried the Samsung Galaxy A14 5G, but OneUI wasn't very performant on that low end model (the bigger issue with that one was that auto brightness simply didn't work consistently; at times, in a lit room, it would reduce brightness to something that would be more appropriate to dark environments).
Also, Samsung implemented some nice nagging features (sign into a Samsung account, do this and that with Samsung products, etc.), which became tedious, as well as not allowing to uninstall some pre-installed apps.
Motorola seems to be known for using stock Android with minimal customisation and bloat. Fingers crossed.
I'm deliberately staying with LCD Android phones for now, rather than giving some of the better OLED Android phones a go, so that I can get accustomed to Android at low cost.
I made the mistake of using lots of iCloud+ features, and iCloud Keychain, but this doesn't lend itself for being able to easily go between Android/iOS, Mac/Windows.
I've also gotten myself a low end Motorola G14, which I will give a try, to see how I deal with Android (in all likelihood, I don't expect issues). I tried the Samsung Galaxy A14 5G, but OneUI wasn't very performant on that low end model (the bigger issue with that one was that auto brightness simply didn't work consistently; at times, in a lit room, it would reduce brightness to something that would be more appropriate to dark environments).
Also, Samsung implemented some nice nagging features (sign into a Samsung account, do this and that with Samsung products, etc.), which became tedious, as well as not allowing to uninstall some pre-installed apps.
Motorola seems to be known for using stock Android with minimal customisation and bloat. Fingers crossed.
I'm deliberately staying with LCD Android phones for now, rather than giving some of the better OLED Android phones a go, so that I can get accustomed to Android at low cost.
I’ve never tried migraine glasses.
My mom’s side of the family originated from primitive conditions in poverty with no access to medical care at the time, but from what my mom described to me, it sounds like her mom did have something that sounded like grand mal epileptic seizures. Without access to modern medicine until later in life, my grandmother never had her issues investigated. She ceased having seizures around her 40’s, if the information I was told is correct.
I have seizures, but the neurologist I had at the time I was being intensively examined about them said they weren’t quite the same as epileptic seizures and were more atypical migraine. But she said it was a very close call. Some of mine look like absence seizures to people witnessing them, but I’m fully aware through them. Mitch McConnell’s well publicized zoning out episodes look like some of my more recent milder seizures.
I rarely get them now, even when I’m exposed to things that triggered me when I was going through menopause. Which is when I had the most and the worst of them. Unfortunately certain kinds of light flashes still bother me. I’m not as easy to trigger into a seizure migraine anymore, but now I’ll get a conventional migraine.
Which is what I was dealing with after several months of using my iPhone 14 Pro Max. I was getting conventional migraine headaches.
I’m using a 12 Pro Max, a Samsung S22 and S23 Ultras, and a Pixel 7a with only mild eye strain. Actually there’s no eye strain with the S22 Ultra.
I own an iPhone 14 Pro Max, iPhone 11 and iPhone SE3 and 12 mini that I can’t use. iPhone 11 and SE 3 leave me with a white shimmer at the periphery of my vision that will eventually take over enough I’m too blinded to drive safely. Those are LCD displays so go figure.
I did use my 12 mini after getting used to it but haven’t been able to use it after my former 13 Pro badly sensitized me against OLED displays I was using fine before. I was able to return to my Samsung but not my Pixel 6 Pro or my 12 mini.
This is the weirdest damned thing health wise that I’ve had to deal with. It’s just hard to figure out. I know it’s not psychosomatic because by trial and error I’ve clearly found displays I can use.
I have a m1 MacBook Air I can use. I find the display hard to focus on but it’s not making me sick. I watch OLED tvs.
I used to spend hours playing in Samsung VR headsets while my friends and family could barely tolerate five minutes in them. Interestingly my sister-in-law who has conventional migraines could wear the headsets just fine, too.
I’m going to stop now because this is getting long and off topic. My apologies to all.
Came across this discussion on the Fairphone 5 display: OLED screen specifications, PWM usage?
There is mention there that it uses a PWM frequency of > 1KHz, although that particular poster does not provide any additional details or references.
However, another poster in fact posted a picture of the Settings, highlight an explicit "DC Dimming" option.
Potentially great news!
Anyone in EU/UK planning to get this phone (or has already gotten one)?
There is mention there that it uses a PWM frequency of > 1KHz, although that particular poster does not provide any additional details or references.
However, another poster in fact posted a picture of the Settings, highlight an explicit "DC Dimming" option.
Potentially great news!
Anyone in EU/UK planning to get this phone (or has already gotten one)?
I have reviewed their website and I would give it a go but it is bigger
- 161.6mm x 75.83mm x 9.6mm
- 212g
I am doing fine with my iPhone SE 2022.
138.4 mm x 67.3 mm x 7.3 mm and 144g
If you do the math - any reconciliation of this issue isn’t going to happen.
Obviously, doesn’t think it’s a worthwhile problem.
So how many OLED iPhones have been sold since the iPhone X six years ago? At least hundreds and hundreds of millions.
And how many people have complained about PWM flickering? Likely less that 500.
Do the math. They don’t care.
Obviously, doesn’t think it’s a worthwhile problem.
So how many OLED iPhones have been sold since the iPhone X six years ago? At least hundreds and hundreds of millions.
And how many people have complained about PWM flickering? Likely less that 500.
Do the math. They don’t care.
It is very likely that many many users suffer from eyestrain, headaches etc, when or after using their phone but cannot attribute it to PWM as they have never heard of PWM. I agree with you that Apple does not care.
Is anyone here a neurologist? I know it’s really challenging to get an appointment where I live and I’ve read that’s a problem in other locations with neurologists inundated with Covid patients and their neurological symptoms. I wonder if they’re also dealing with an increasing number of migraine patients and nobody knows why there’s an uptick. I’m just spitballing here. I am not a neurologist nor do I know firsthand what they’re dealing with from their perspective. I just know the wait times for non emergency appointments I’ve been told. I’m just curious.
Like I said many times, I’ve got a friend who knows his iPhone display gives him migraines. He told me flat out he doesn’t care. He takes pain relievers and plows on. His wife: 🤦 Neither of us can talk him out of it.
My last month with my 14 Pro Max, I popped Tylenol myself while I waited for my 12 Pro Max to ship. I wasn’t even looking much at my iPhone, I was using my Android phones. I still needed pain relievers for the brief usage.
If this 12 Pro Max hadn’t worked out for me, I was going to have to transfer everything to Android and that was a very daunting prospect. I can’t really judge my friend too harshly.
Like I said many times, I’ve got a friend who knows his iPhone display gives him migraines. He told me flat out he doesn’t care. He takes pain relievers and plows on. His wife: 🤦 Neither of us can talk him out of it.
My last month with my 14 Pro Max, I popped Tylenol myself while I waited for my 12 Pro Max to ship. I wasn’t even looking much at my iPhone, I was using my Android phones. I still needed pain relievers for the brief usage.
If this 12 Pro Max hadn’t worked out for me, I was going to have to transfer everything to Android and that was a very daunting prospect. I can’t really judge my friend too harshly.
Anyone thinking of giving the standard 15 a go? I tried the 13 Pro previously and that phone made me feel sick as a dog. Decided to skip over the 14 in the hope something positive might happen for us with the 15.
I’m stuck on an iPhone XR which is seriously showing its age. What else can I do besides buying a renewed iPhone 11 which will be unimpressive straight out the box due to its age? It’s not even as if any of Apple’s competitors have any decent offerings for us.
I’m stuck on an iPhone XR which is seriously showing its age. What else can I do besides buying a renewed iPhone 11 which will be unimpressive straight out the box due to its age? It’s not even as if any of Apple’s competitors have any decent offerings for us.
15 Plus is something I'd like to give a go ... I'm getting to the point where I find the 6.1" size is becoming a bit difficult to spend much time on without glasses, which makes it less practical for using it ad hoc, and while out, where I don't have glasses with me. I also generally seem to prefer a larger screen size.
The normal 14 was usable for me. I didn't get any significant nausea/motion sickness symptoms, or significant eye strain/headaches. However, the period of using the 14 did coincide with more regular migraines, which I can't necessarily blame on it without more data (every now and then, these periods just happen). But in general, using the 14 was just that little bit weird compared to the 11 (especially in lower light situations).
It's really not that bad with an iPhone 11. I am using it now. It's just that you get another year (maybe two) out of it, before iOS support fades, and then what? That's a big part of the reason that I'm moving my stuff to platform agnostic services.
On a different note, I gave a privacy screen protector a go on the 14. Aside from that type of screen protector not allowing you to glance at the phone from the side, it did have one particular effect: it reduced the overall brightness output of the phone. Even at 100%, the measures lx value was lower than without. The second effect: the flicker ratio % I measured also topped out lower than without. This is presumably because the modulation intensity gets dimmed by the screen protector.
So, in theory, you could run the phone with that protector at 100%, with a higher RWP setting, and get a lower lx, with a lower flicker %, than without it. It obviously doesn't do anything about the actual PWM at all.
The downside with that I noticed was that you just can't use auto brightness. In medium to darker environments, since the phone doesn't know that you're using one of those screen protectors, it reduces the brightness too much, and things become illegible.
Second downside: it was an clear one, not anti-glare. I really can't deal with non anti-glare screen protectors anymore. I did have the idea of putting both on it, the anti-glare on top of the privacy one 🤦♂️
Perhaps something to try on the 15 Plus ...
I am in the market for a new ipad. My Ipad Pro 12.9" (1st Gen) is on its last legs.
My daughters just started secondary school and all students must sign up to a new ipad (paid 0% over 4 years) and they are given a 9th Gen iPad. I helped set it up for her but I simply cannot look at it for more than a minute at a time.
Apple comparison site shows both my Ipad Pro (1st Gen) and the 9th Gen having retina displays, non OLED. Is there a significant difference between these two models that I cant work out? Its worse than any of the recent iphones I have tried.
My daughters just started secondary school and all students must sign up to a new ipad (paid 0% over 4 years) and they are given a 9th Gen iPad. I helped set it up for her but I simply cannot look at it for more than a minute at a time.
Apple comparison site shows both my Ipad Pro (1st Gen) and the 9th Gen having retina displays, non OLED. Is there a significant difference between these two models that I cant work out? Its worse than any of the recent iphones I have tried.
If you’re asking about the performance, your original 9.7” iPad Pro has an A9 and 2GB of RAM (if I recall correctly), and the iPad 9 has an A13, which is a big jump in performance, and 3GB of RAM. On iPadOS 15 it’s very power efficient. I don’t know the battery life on iPad OS 16 or newer.
As for the screen, keep in mind that your iPad Pro has a laminated screen, and the iPad 9 has a non laminated screen, although it’s very comfortable PWM-wise.
I would try to go for an iPad Air 5, specially when the 6 gets released in October, and see if you can use it, because it will have a much longer and better lifespan.