Can you guess which type of system the SE is using from the frequency or modulation depth at 100% (9846Hz, 3%)?
Apparently philip's ultra definition LED bulbs measure 0.01 flicker index and 1.5 percent flicker. Would those work for you?
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
- Thread starter Kitkad
- WikiPost WikiPost
- Start date
-
- Tags
- eye strain xs max
- Sort by reaction score
- Status
Can you guess which type of system the SE is using from the frequency or modulation depth at 100% (9846Hz, 3%)?
Apparently philip's ultra definition LED bulbs measure 0.01 flicker index and 1.5 percent flicker. Would those work for you?
I went to the Apple Store again tonight because I was going to give iPhone 15 a real shot, intending to purchase it and ultimately return it (because I know it would never be acceptable for me long-term). I used it for a little while at the Apple Store and my head was swimming. I couldn't even make it acceptable to use in the store. I kept looking around at other people seemingly enjoying the iPhones and just stared in amazement. I truly don't understand how so many others aren't having negative health effects from these phone displays. Especially with all of the scientific data we know about how they work now.
I also looked at the MacBook Pros and can confirm the 40% thing is accurate. Above 40%, seemingly no issues, but below, PWM was blatantly obvious. I didn't bring in the Opple tonight. Instead, I used my favorite iOS app: Illuminance Pulsation Meter. It's my quick and dirty way to test for PWM/flicker/naughty displays.
Last edited:
I was at the apple store earlier this evening, had to take my macbook in for repair and my sister needed a new phone battery so I got to play around with the new phones for a good hour. The pros were immediately a no-go, instant swimmy head but the regular 15s were pretty comfortable. I ended up going home with a 256gb yellow 15. I was not intending to buy anything this year, but YOLO I guess. If you're going to test out the different models now's the time since we have the extended return period now. So far so good, been setting it up for the past few hours and logging into stuff and no issues yet. IMO the 15/15+ are a really good compromise for anyone who can't use the pros, it's not quite pro but it's far from basic too. I'm giving up AOD and macro but the camera is still really freaking good, it still has the island, and I absolutely love the lightness. I can already feel that static 60hz is much better for my eyes. We shall see over the following weeks, but I really hope I don't have to return Butters 🤞
Side note- I noticed several of the 15 pros on display were extremely hot to the touch 😳 None of the base 15s, just the pros. Yikes.
Side note- I noticed several of the 15 pros on display were extremely hot to the touch 😳 None of the base 15s, just the pros. Yikes.
Last edited:
This was why I have prepared this chart below for future reference.
Ok for Opple readings, if said panel flicker frequency has exceeded 40,000 hertz, the system will just crop out a portion of it and report it as 9846 hertz.
This is how it work around its limitation(Max 40,000 hertz).
If the iphone SE is getting 9846 hertz and modulation depth % of 3.9 (or below), and while tested between its 30% to 50% brightness level, then it is without a doubt, lighting system (1).
If the modulation % is not 3.9% and below, then it could be other lighting system from the top 4 panels.
I have looked through some of the testing results conducted via Opple LM. Unfortunately, as much as I would like to support the authors' effects ~ I cannot do so.
The testing proceed is skewed in a way to make majority of the bulbs appear even more "flicker-free" than they really are.
Unlike smartphone measurements, the ideal testing process for bulbs/lamps ought to have be done in semi-controlled environment(closer to our actual room environment).
The difference here is that for smartphone/ tablets, we are staring directly into the light source. Hence, it is correct to put Opple right close to the front of the screen.
However for bulbs/lamps, we are looking at bounced-off lighting from the source. Putting the Opple light master right in front of the bulb, and furthermore in a controlled room environment (meaning creating an enclosed test environment just to get the expected measurement a tester desires) is unfortunately a flawed design testing process.
Based on my personal experience though, Philips' eyecomfort lighting are generally safe and better than many of the advertised "flicker-free" lighting on the market.
Last edited:
iPhone 15 seems to be the best combination of modulation and frequency.
Truth be told the standard devices are wonderful to hold in the hand, and a large part of the reason I used to upgrade annually was to experience the changes and minor refinements that Apple made generation-to-generation. So thank you, Apple, for at least letting PWM-sensitive users try these devices to our heart’s content. Even if we know the odds of any of these being feasible remain low.
I echo a lot of the sentiments felt in this thread: it is disheartening getting immediate, sometimes severe, headaches then watching everyone else using these iPhones like they’re perfectly fine and enjoying them the way they’re supposed to be.
Then we have iPad’s and Mac’s finally set to make the switch to OLED, albeit with no solution in sight.
At least a lot of the truly amazing, groundbreaking features on iPhone 15 Pro are still in their infancy. It will take several years before we can experience spatial videos on an Apple Vision/Vision Pro headset. High graphics settings in Resident Evil seem to crash iPhone 15 Pro. So I won’t be mad if we get a fix, finally, on iPhone 16 Pro or iPhone 17 Pro.
I am thinking of switching to a device like AIpin, which I just learned about last night before MacRumors posted about it. That uses lasers to project a user interface onto a user’s hand, when needed. But at heart, despite wanting to minimize my smartphone usage, I am an iPhone Pro Max customer and I’m sure I’ll be ecstatic when we finally get a flicker-free OLED device. Hopefully not too old and gray at that point where the excitement has worn off…
I will admit this is all getting slightly confusing and disorienting, but it confirms my suspicion that there is more going on than a high-frequency PWM with low modulations even on the Mini-LED displays. Testing I’m finding indicates that modulations on the 16” MacBook Pro are slightly better. But I’ll probably wait to see what happens with the OLED displays, which I’m expecting to have a low frequency while remaining blindly hopeful they’ll figure out DC dimming. Thank you for all of your explanations.
It’s difficult to go off of measurements since there’s so much conflicting information, as different devices are probably picking up different frequencies and sine waves, but it’s still concerning that the modulations far exceed even the lighting in an Apple Store. There are, however, trends in the data and iPhone 15 is the best in terms of modulations. Thanks as well for going to the trouble of doing this. How is this deemed acceptable to be used by hundreds of millions of users?
does reducing white point have any negative side effects like increasing the modulation depth?
I was at Apple Store for a 3rd day in a row and I noticed that when I changed the White Point to make the screen dimmer, an ADDITIONAL black band started showing on the screen. This black band was different than the others and didn’t seem to move in sync with the typical PWM bands. (I could see this with my Illuminance Pulsation Meter app.)
I have never recommended changing the white point as a workaround for PWM.
thanks. did it change any of your measurements like frequency or modulation depth?
I didn't bring my Opple meter today, so I am not sure. I was too busy looking at all of the customers and analyzing them. Overhearing some of the conversations they were having was so cringeworthy -- but that's a completely separate topic.
Hi guys! You have an offer for OPPLE Light Master 4 at 50% discount because 11/11!
es.aliexpress.com
These days it was at 44, and now it is 26, I have bought some more things, and it has cost me €18. So for those who would like to buy it now it's very good value, it's the official shop 👌
OPPLE-Medidor de parpadeo Master 4 Light Lux CRI DUV, R1-R14, linterna LED, Bluetooth, IOS, Android, probador, herramienta, Sensor de iluminación - AliExpress 1420
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
These days it was at 44, and now it is 26, I have bought some more things, and it has cost me €18. So for those who would like to buy it now it's very good value, it's the official shop 👌
That's a good deal. I have both the 3 and the 4. Good inexpensive tools for our purposes here.Hi guys! You have an offer for OPPLE Light Master 4 at 50% discount because 11/11!
OPPLE-Medidor de parpadeo Master 4 Light Lux CRI DUV, R1-R14, linterna LED, Bluetooth, IOS, Android, probador, herramienta, Sensor de iluminación - AliExpress 1420
Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
These days it was at 44, and now it is 26, I have bought some more things, and it has cost me €18. So for those who would like to buy it now it's very good value, it's the official shop 👌
Last edited:
I just want a new iPhone that doesn’t cause persistent throbbing behind my eyes.
I’ve been going into each generation with blind optimism only to become disappointed each time.
Despite my internal arguments over trying or not trying another iPhone 15 generation device, I am considering trying the base iPhone 15. iPhone 15 Pro Max would probably be too difficult for me to return. I try to limit myself as much as possible, but it seems like there are users in this thread that try every model each generation?
It’s difficult to interpret data to determine whether this would be any different than iPhone 14, which I used for 15 minutes before boxing up. Realistically probably not, but Apple isn’t making drastic enough changes generation-to-generation where I could say “1920Hz dimming could make the difference in whether this iPhone feels like an LCD iPhone.”
Flicker-free. Come on. Even if it’s an Accessibility setting.
Although it’s also on me for wasting so much time typing that over and over.
I’ve been going into each generation with blind optimism only to become disappointed each time.
Despite my internal arguments over trying or not trying another iPhone 15 generation device, I am considering trying the base iPhone 15. iPhone 15 Pro Max would probably be too difficult for me to return. I try to limit myself as much as possible, but it seems like there are users in this thread that try every model each generation?
It’s difficult to interpret data to determine whether this would be any different than iPhone 14, which I used for 15 minutes before boxing up. Realistically probably not, but Apple isn’t making drastic enough changes generation-to-generation where I could say “1920Hz dimming could make the difference in whether this iPhone feels like an LCD iPhone.”
Flicker-free. Come on. Even if it’s an Accessibility setting.
Although it’s also on me for wasting so much time typing that over and over.
Im here with you man. I been at this forum for years now. Only recently made an account out of frustration. Please let me know how the 15 base is treating you. And if you mind me asking, why not the 15 plus? Are they not the same? Or are you going to try out both?
Honestly I probably would enjoy the 15 Plus more, but the size of the 15 just feels right in the aluminum design and it has lower modulations. It seems like users have had the best success with iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 Pro Max, and I would probably agree that those are the best iPhones overall in each series.
Perhaps I should consult an Apple Store, but it’s difficult having so many devices next to each other and sometimes the mind can play tricks despite feeling some sensitivity. I am open to iPhone 15 Plus, but I really just want whichever display is easier on the eyes.
The reality is that there is no flicker-free iPhone, besides iPhone SE, and it’s more likely they’ll all cause some aggressive PWM symptoms. Apple’s display team isn’t doing enough to make progress in flicker sensitivity.
Welcome, even if the stagnation here is getting frustrating.
I’ll only try one more iPhone this generation at most, as I do want to be cognizant of returns. Next time they make a big push about a redesigned brightness controller, best believe that I’ll test multiple models that generation in an effort to find a comfortable device. Ideally next time they do that the first iPhone tested would cause no sensitivity.
But this still feels like a time-sink and maybe we need to accept that we’re not able to use the latest iPhones.
But this still feels like a time-sink and maybe we need to accept that we’re not able to use the latest iPhones.
Where we stand in the next couple of years is no iPhone unless something changes as SE is going OLED.
I'm also mulling over a standard 15 order as I've realised I don't want a big phone anyway. The 15 does look like the best bet if any are gonna work for us this year. The 13 and 14 were so close for me, the only symptoms were burping and a feeling of unease during a week of use on each. Of course, I couldn't live like that long term which is why they were returned.
“Throbbing behind the eyes” is exactly what I experience too. Thanks for helping me accurately describe that. It starts with throbbing behind the eyes, and then the muscles in the back of my upper neck start to get really tight and I ultimately feel nauseous.
Every day that passes, my anger grows at this issue — especially as new products like MacBook Pro come out and will likely use the same PWM/TLM technology.
We were in a great place with LCD screens for two decades and now all of that is gone as these companies try to shoehorn OLED everywhere.
Ugh. This thread will shortly turn into a support group, haha, if it hasn’t already.
I refuse to use Android. iPhone SE should last 5 or more years, but the problem is Apple’s engineering roadmaps are years out.
Just really hope the Koreans or Chinese develop truly flicker-free panels.
Every day that passes, my anger grows at this issue — especially as new products like MacBook Pro come out and will likely use the same PWM/TLM technology.
We were in a great place with LCD screens for two decades and now all of that is gone as these companies try to shoehorn OLED everywhere.
Ugh. This thread will shortly turn into a support group, haha, if it hasn’t already.
I refuse to use Android. iPhone SE should last 5 or more years, but the problem is Apple’s engineering roadmaps are years out.
Just really hope the Koreans or Chinese develop truly flicker-free panels.
- If an OLED iPhone causes eye-strain for people, I understand that. It can be easily explained, and I would expect that most people should not respond well to these screens with high flicker indexes.
- If an OLED iPhone doesn't cause eye-strain for people, I don't understand that, but I accept it. I still believe that it does have a negative effect on these people, but for whatever reason, to a much less extent.
- If one version of an OLED iPhone doesn't cause eye-strain for someone but another version does, I am having the most difficult time understanding that.
- Are there certain frequencies and modulation percentages that just happen to align or be in sync with that person's own eyeballs/brain?
- Panel lottery?
- Environmental?
- Placebo? Maybe all versions actually don't cause eye-strain, but their anxiety caused it.
Everything I have measured with my Opple Light Master Pro, at a minimum, will tell us if there is reason to be concerned or not. With all iPhones except for iPhone SE, there is reason to be concerned. From there, some people will see eye-strain and some won't, and that's where an individual will need to test on their own.
I become gravely concerned when the discussion turns into finding ways to live with PWM/TLM. We absolutely should not have to deal with it. iPhones before iPhone X and iPhone SE 1/2/3 as well as iPhone XR/11 do not use PWM and do not have issues.
An example I used many years ago in this forum:
iPhones with PWM are like someone pinching you really hard. For some people, they seem to feel the pinch less, but regardless, they are still being pinched. It's proven. iPhones without PWM -- no pinching at all. Why would anyone allow someone to pinch them?
Last edited:
This is my biggest head-scratcher with Apple. They have so many accessibility options, they're the preferred phone of blind people for how accessible they are, yet there's still no setting for flicker. They have to know that lots of people are sensitive to it, it just makes no sense why they completely ignore us.
That said, the 15 is doing quite well for me. I've had two full days with it now, kinda middling usage since I've been so busy but so far no symptoms 🤞
Glad to hear you aren't having any negative effects. What brightness are you using? What's the lowest brightness you've used? Are you using Reduce White Point? What is your experience with other OLED iPhones in the past? Thank you!
Auto brightness, no changes to white point, I think lowest brightness was probably 10% or so if I had to guess but I can't be sure since I haven't really paid attention to that. I purposely didn't mess with any screen settings just so to be absolutely sure if it would cause problems or not. Kind of baptism by fire lol.
My past experiences have been mixed. I first noticed eyestrain back in 2011 with my Galaxy S2, prior to that I'd only had LCD phones. I was on Samsungs from then until 2017 and they were all OLED. Almost every time I got a new phone I'd notice some mild headaches for a couple weeks, but they always went away so I don't think my specific issue is just OLEDs. I think I'm minorly sensitive to OLEDs/PWM, but since my eyes were fine after a couple weeks with my old Samsungs, I think my main problem is variable refresh rates. It was only when I started using phones with Promotion or android's version of it that I could no longer adjust after a couple weeks.
It sucks cause everyone is so different, what works for me may not work for you and vice-versa :/