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iLuddite

macrumors 6502
Oct 9, 2023
418
766
I was at the apple store earlier this evening, had to take my macbook in for repair and my sister needed a new phone battery so I got to play around with the new phones for a good hour. The pros were immediately a no-go, instant swimmy head but the regular 15s were pretty comfortable. I ended up going home with a 256gb yellow 15. I was not intending to buy anything this year, but YOLO I guess. If you're going to test out the different models now's the time since we have the extended return period now. So far so good, been setting it up for the past few hours and logging into stuff and no issues yet. IMO the 15/15+ are a really good compromise for anyone who can't use the pros, it's not quite pro but it's far from basic too. I'm giving up AOD and macro but the camera is still really freaking good, it still has the island, and I absolutely love the lightness. I can already feel that static 60hz is much better for my eyes. We shall see over the following weeks, but I really hope I don't have to return Butters 🤞

Side note- I noticed several of the 15 pros on display were extremely hot to the touch 😳 None of the base 15s, just the pros. Yikes.
Hey, twin 😏 (also picked up yellow 15–only 128GB though as that was already stretching the budget 🤪). Also been having virtually no symptoms since I acquired phone 10/21; it’s probably the most comfortable OLED iPhone I’ve used to date. And yes, the Pros still make my head swim, too. 🤢🤕

I, too noticed the flamin’-hot Pros; after I daringly mentioned how warm they were to an associate as he was ringing up a couple (who were getting Pros, of course), he frustratedly exclaimed, “it’s because they’re on chargers all day!” Sounded just like your average MacRumors folk 😂😂
 

1369281

Cancelled
Oct 8, 2006
836
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I'm trying to figure out where you are going with this post. Since you quoted me, I would assume you are referring to my experience. I'm not advocating "finding ways to live with PWM."
I'm simply stating my experience. When PwmMen posts that he is using his 15 Pro Max with no symptoms, I don't see him getting a reaction of trying to just find a way to live with PWM.
Besides, even though you take a lot of measurements, it still doesn't qualify you to predict when or how someone is going to react to different screens. However, I do think Apple can do more with OLED screens, and I wish they offered an LCD version besides just the SE.
For some reason, I feel singled out, and have in the past, in reporting having some success with a model. I'm not the only one that can use one of these phones and have had issues with some of the other old OLEDs. I certainly can't explain it, but neither can you.
I certainly did not intend to come across mean-spirited to you; my apologies. I quoted you, but my comments were meant for broader discussion (and ultimately just turned into me venting). I think we are all looking for answers, and at the end of the day, we just want our phones to not cause us issues of any kind. I'm very glad you have a configuration that is working for you, and I hope it continues to.

Auto brightness, no changes to white point, I think lowest brightness was probably 10% or so if I had to guess but I can't be sure since I haven't really paid attention to that. I purposely didn't mess with any screen settings just so to be absolutely sure if it would cause problems or not. Kind of baptism by fire lol.

My past experiences have been mixed. I first noticed eyestrain back in 2011 with my Galaxy S2, prior to that I'd only had LCD phones. I was on Samsungs from then until 2017 and they were all OLED. Almost every time I got a new phone I'd notice some mild headaches for a couple weeks, but they always went away so I don't think my specific issue is just OLEDs. I think I'm minorly sensitive to OLEDs/PWM, but since my eyes were fine after a couple weeks with my old Samsungs, I think my main problem is variable refresh rates. It was only when I started using phones with Promotion or android's version of it that I could no longer adjust after a couple weeks.

It sucks cause everyone is so different, what works for me may not work for you and vice-versa :/
Thanks for that history! Yes, it is crazy that there doesn't seem to be many consistencies amongst us. There are so many variables as many folks smarter than me have pointed out over the years and especially the past few weeks. Just like John G, I am glad to hear you have a configuration that works for you. 👍
 

1369281

Cancelled
Oct 8, 2006
836
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Hey, twin 😏 (also picked up yellow 15–only 128GB though as that was already stretching the budget 🤪). Also been having virtually no symptoms since I acquired phone 10/21; it’s probably the most comfortable OLED iPhone I’ve used to date. And yes, the Pros still make my head swim, too. 🤢🤕

I, too noticed the flamin’-hot Pros; after I daringly mentioned how warm they were to an associate as he was ringing up a couple (who were getting Pros, of course), he frustratedly exclaimed, “it’s because they’re on chargers all day!” Sounded just like your average MacRumors folk 😂😂
Those Qi ("MagSafe") chargers definitely make the phones hot. They are also very energy inefficient compared to using a charging port. In the store, I took them off the chargers for a little bit before I played around because they were so hot! Also, glad to hear about your success with iPhone 15 as well.
 
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iLuddite

macrumors 6502
Oct 9, 2023
418
766
Those Qi ("MagSafe") chargers definitely make the phones hot. They are also very energy inefficient compared to using a charging port. In the store, I took them off the chargers for a little bit before I played around because they were so hot! Also, glad to hear about your success with iPhone 15 as well.
Indeed, but as @Ac1d 8urn pointed out the regular 15s were fine. Ironically this was after Apple had issued the update that was supposed to improve thermals in titanium models. And thank you! ♡
 
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Sans_sebastian

macrumors newbie
Nov 11, 2023
1
2
I'm simply stating my experience. When PwmMen posts that he is using his 15 Pro Max with no symptoms, I don't see him getting a reaction of trying to just find a way to live with PWM.
Besides, even though you take a lot of measurements, it still doesn't qualify you to predict when or how someone is going to react to different screens. However, I do think Apple can do more with OLED screens, and I wish they offered an LCD version besides just the SE.
For some reason, I feel singled out, and have in the past, in reporting having some success with a model. I'm not the only one that can use one of these phones and have had issues with some of the other old OLEDs. I certainly can't explain it, but neither can you.

A disclaimer I have been a long time reader of this thread and I did saw your post before. So I created an account to respond your post.

There is a reason why when other users posted their success with a particular model, they received warm response.

It was because how you said it, and what you are suggesting from it.

When other members posted about their success with a model, they are specifically referring to only themselves.

For your feedback, what you often suggested is that if a particular model worked for you, then it ought to have worked for everyone else.

What you may have unintentionally done is to have put "yourself in the center of the universe".

Unless you have a way to scientifically project how your own personal brainwaves/ neurons function and then transfer to each and everyone of us to become an exact replicate of you, whatever that you are suggesting and trying to push upon other members are of little help.

Instead, what you have been doing was to dismiss measurements and claiming that it is to be invalidated.

Your action is like encouraging someone that is extremely heat intolerance to move to a country with a daily climate of 35 degrees Celsius / 91.4°F, and with a humidity of over 80%. Then, you make the claim that climate measurements does not matter and it is to be dismissed for it does not predict any thing for you.

Since according to your claim, 91.4°F w/ humidity of over 80% has worked for you. So it is still better to move to the country to find out for oneself if it is suitable for them.

This is like setting the person that is already suffering from extreme heat intolerance up for failure.

Granted, with PWM/ TLM there might be conflicting results presented at times but I hope you can understand things are not as linear as climate where nature only has temperature and humidity %.

For instance, the Apple mini-LED panels has not 1, but 3 different PWM frequencies.

15khz base flicker
6000 additional flickering on top of it
~80 hertz flickering triggered only in lower brightness

Each of us individuals can be affected by any one of the above.


The iphone 15/15 plus has 2 different frequencies that happens simultaneously.

60 hertz sine wave with low modulation
480 hertz with higher modulation


May I ask then ~ does nature have all these weird figures with temperature climate? Do we have a base 65°F reading with an additional 91.4°F on top of it? No. Does our climate have a dry humidity of 40% with an additional wet humidity of 80% on top on it? No again. If it really does, many of us who are sensitive will fall ill and sick.

Does screen panels today have all these weird figures? Yes. Why? Was it because of nature? Or, because of man-made engineering?

If it is the latter, can we, as a community, do something about it? Yes. By presenting and sharing measurements and figures to show why it affects us the way they do.
 

dstow

macrumors regular
Dec 20, 2021
191
248
Update on 15 Pro Max hands on for the last several days

Default settings with 120Hz Pro-Motion yields the same excruciating sensation of your skull being microwaved on a rotisserie

Reducing frame rate to 60Hz lessens the effect same as 15 Pro, albeit still not a solution as discomfort remains

The 15 Pro Max is not comfortable to use despite others anecdotal experiences with it somehow better than the 15 Pro, random headaches and a general sense of un-ease like your being slowly irradiated to death remain

Conclusion being either @PwmMen is lying, or doesn't possess a human anatomy, as the 15 Pro Max is still just as punishing as it's smaller brother.

Final solution - return this overpriced misery generator for the regular 15 and I can hopefully rest in peace as so far it's been a pointless exercise in futility.
 

DJTaurus

macrumors 68000
Jan 31, 2012
1,780
1,391
Update on 15 Pro Max hands on for the last several days

Default settings with 120Hz Pro-Motion yields the same excruciating sensation of your skull being microwaved on a rotisserie

Reducing frame rate to 60Hz lessens the effect same as 15 Pro, albeit still not a solution as discomfort remains

The 15 Pro Max is not comfortable to use despite others anecdotal experiences with it somehow better than the 15 Pro, random headaches and a general sense of un-ease like your being slowly irradiated to death remain

Conclusion being either @PwmMen is lying, or doesn't possess a human anatomy, as the 15 Pro Max is still just as punishing as it's smaller brother.

Final solution - return this overpriced misery generator for the regular 15 and I can hopefully rest in peace as so far it's been a pointless exercise in futility.
Did you use 15 or 14 with success ?
 

cenkanyil

macrumors newbie
Nov 2, 2023
22
31
Final solution - return this overpriced misery generator for the regular 15 and I can hopefully rest in peace as so far it's been a pointless exercise in futility.
Does the iPhone 15 not cause any problems regarding PWM? And how about the plus model?
 

1369281

Cancelled
Oct 8, 2006
836
1,885
Update on 15 Pro Max hands on for the last several days

Default settings with 120Hz Pro-Motion yields the same excruciating sensation of your skull being microwaved on a rotisserie

Reducing frame rate to 60Hz lessens the effect same as 15 Pro, albeit still not a solution as discomfort remains

The 15 Pro Max is not comfortable to use despite others anecdotal experiences with it somehow better than the 15 Pro, random headaches and a general sense of un-ease like your being slowly irradiated to death remain

Conclusion being either @PwmMen is lying, or doesn't possess a human anatomy, as the 15 Pro Max is still just as punishing as it's smaller brother.

Final solution - return this overpriced misery generator for the regular 15 and I can hopefully rest in peace as so far it's been a pointless exercise in futility.
Funny comment about the human anatomy. Made me laugh.

My girlfriend begged me for iPhone 15 Pro Max, despite me telling her about all of the issues we discuss here. She’s had it for a few days now and has absolutely no issues. I truly don’t understand it. I look at her phone and almost immediately get the behind-the-eyes throbbing. Makes no sense to me.
 
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PurpleIsAFruit

macrumors member
May 26, 2020
49
45
Hoping there might be some kind of Black Friday offering from Apple on iPhones, even if it’s just a gift card like it was last year. If so I will hopefully give a standard 15 a go. My XR feels an elderly person in palliative care. It’s breathing, but doesn’t have long left.
 

cenkanyil

macrumors newbie
Nov 2, 2023
22
31
Hoping there might be some kind of Black Friday offering from Apple on iPhones, even if it’s just a gift card like it was last year. If so I will hopefully give a standard 15 a go. My XR feels an elderly person in palliative care. It’s breathing, but doesn’t have long left.
Let me know if the 15 works for you.
 
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now i see it

macrumors G4
Jan 2, 2002
11,260
24,297
I just acquired a refurbished iPhone 6S Plus that looks brand new and had a battery with 2 load cycles on it and it’s PERFECT!

It truly is an excellent phone with a superb display. And now I can say with total conviction, that it is (was) the best iPhone Apple ever made (for me). Sure the camera isn’t up to the ip15 standards but I don’t care about the camera.
I got a 64GB model and there’s 45GB free and I’m never going to fill it (cuz I don’t hoard vid clips or photos).

So gang——- there is an answer to the flickering dilemma.
iPhone 6S Plus. It really is superb.
(and still fast on iOS 15. No complaints).
 

asus389

macrumors 6502
Sep 11, 2019
341
236
USA
Yeah, the best screens are the pre-P3 LCD screens. AFAIK the 6S meets this criteria. I think the current iPad 10th gen does also.
 
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dstow

macrumors regular
Dec 20, 2021
191
248
The 15 Plus was the best OLED experience thus far, much more tolerable than the 15 Pro/Max with it's head pressure - So, my last ditch attempt is the regular 15, the Plus was incredible in terms of it's battery life, and so is the max - almost 2 days with a single charge, the 11 barely lasts half the day - unusable.

The 15 Plus/Max are just too big, if your out and about it's just to cumbersome, at home or in the office fantastic, but practicality comes first here. The 15 is the perfect weight/form factor, and if I can tolerate it as the 15 Plus was 90% there I will grit my teeth as the 11 is not an option, it's being returned to 2019 where it belongs.
 
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now i see it

macrumors G4
Jan 2, 2002
11,260
24,297
Of all the current MacBooks, M1, M2, M3 pro or air, which ones do not have PWM issues?
None of those have OLED screens, so the typical PWM flickering used in brightness control isn’t used.
But….
All the new M chips and A chips have temporal dithering abilities built in to create fake colors. Most people aren’t bothered by the very fast modulation that TD uses - but some are.

The only way for a person to find out if a particular device’s screen bothers them is to buy one and try it out.
Everyone is different in their tolerance
 
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jimmy_uk

macrumors 68020
Oct 19, 2015
2,484
3,310
UK
None of those have OLED screens, so the typical PWM flickering used in brightness control isn’t used.
But….
All the new M chips and A chips have temporal dithering abilities built in to create fake colors. Most people aren’t bothered by the very fast modulation that TD uses - but some are.

The only way for a person to find out if a particular device’s screen bothers them is to buy one and try it out.
Everyone is different in their tolerance
The Macbook Pro's with Mini LED use PWM.
 

iLuddite

macrumors 6502
Oct 9, 2023
418
766
Of all the current MacBooks, M1, M2, M3 pro or air, which ones do not have PWM issues?
M1 Air doesn’t bother me, but then again temporal dithering never really has as much as the PWM of certain OLEDs (looking at you, iPhone X/S and modern Pro models)
 

1369281

Cancelled
Oct 8, 2006
836
1,885
I gave iPhone 15 a real chance. If anyone has to have a new iPhone and is willing to suffer, I think this is the least worst option, and our measurements have proven that.

Unfortunately, for me, I don’t want to live my life with throbbing eyes, a mild headache, and tight neck muscles just to have a modern iPhone.
 
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MICHAELSD

macrumors 603
Jul 13, 2008
5,484
3,494
NJ
I gave iPhone 15 a real chance. If anyone has to have a new iPhone and is willing to suffer, I think this is the least worst option, and our measurements have proven that.

Unfortunately, for me, I don’t want to live my life with throbbing eyes, a mild headache, and tight neck muscles just to have a modern iPhone.
This is more or less my concern: the best case scenario with the current state of TLM/PWM is that iPhone 15 will still cause persistent throbbing behind the eyes. Whether it’s reduced or not, it’s still not advisable to continue using long-term.

As much as I want to order one as well, we all know the outcome. It would take a miracle, or a software update, for any of the current generation iPhones to work differently.
 
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