Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

[MICHAELSD]

Oh you’ll be fine.
Just stare at this 8 hours a day.

View attachment 2316463

I sort of understand where the average consumer is coming from: many of us stare at flickering displays at some point during the day, whether they’re transit schedules, billboards, or even the infotainment systems in our vehicles.

If it doesn’t cause sensitivity, it doesn’t necessarily bother me that it’s flickering as long as it looks nice. There are plenty of flickering displays that I can look at as if they were flicker-free, and therefore I’m not bothered by it. Unfortunately, none of those displays have been made by Apple—with the exception of the Apple Watch, which has a flawless flicker implementation IMO, at least on earlier generations.

15 or 15 Plus?

I am personally looking at the 15 Plus as an experimental phase. I do think the iPhone 15 is more appealing on paper, but again I haven’t felt any attachment to a 6.1” iPhone. I am expecting to enjoy it more than I think that I will even in comparison to iPhone 15 Pro, but I’m also weary that the headaches will be either be among the best or among the worst of any device tested.

 

[MICHAELSD]

This has still bothered me though: Apple Watch seems to have a flicker rate that corresponds to the display refresh rate. Modulations have been measured at .75% or less, and it passes all of the PWM tests.

If only they did this on iPhone, it would probably solve the issue for 99%+ of us.

It also makes me weary about upgrading my Apple Watch, in case this has changed on newer generations with the always-on display and 2000 nits of brightness.

It’s not the size of the Apple Watch that prevents flicker sensitivity, it’s the unobtrusive and consistent flicker implementation—which I’ve reiterated numerous times.

Same with iPhone 13 mini: I don’t believe that sizes play into it. It was the combination of lower modulations and a slightly higher flicker rate. That display looked and still looks phenomenal, even if they would probably need to reduce the modulations all the way down for me not to have persistent throbbing behind my eyes.

 

[iLuddite]

15 or 15 Plus?

Base 15 (128GB, Yellow)

 

[MICHAELSD]

Base 15 (128GB, Yellow)

Did you compare to any other iPhone’s?

 

[iLuddite]

Did you compare to any other iPhone’s?

Not too in-depth is since that's what the budget allowed at the time. I did however return a third-generation iPhone SE (comfy display but a tad small and with insufficient battery life) on the last day of its 14-day window for the 15, and before that I had an iPhone 13 mini since spring 2022 (my favorite iPhone to date but its OLED did cause some regular, if mild, irritation). At the Apple Store I briefly glanced at the Pro models and aside from their hot-to-the-touch temperatures I noticed how queasy their frankly weird ProMotion displays made me feel—sadly no different from the 14 Pro/Max before.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Whatever. I’m ready to be disappointed. I, too, really, really, really wanted to return the third-generation iPhone SE and keep iPhone 13 mini. I wouldn’t have purchased it to begin with so this PWM issue leads to more issues all-around. But it is cool at times trying iPhones I wouldn’t necessarily normally buy like iPhone 13 mini.

I obviously don’t like the standard size so let’s see what happens…

 

[lbass]

Has anyone tried the 14" or 16" m3 pros? I couldn't use the m1 generation. It doesn't look like the screen tech has changed, but I am interested if anyone has tried them

 

[jimmy_uk]

Whatever. I’m ready to be disappointed. I, too, really, really, really wanted to return the third-generation iPhone SE and keep iPhone 13 mini. I wouldn’t have purchased it to begin with so this PWM issue leads to more issues all-around. But it is cool at times trying iPhones I wouldn’t necessarily normally buy like iPhone 13 mini.

I obviously don’t like the standard size so let’s see what happens…

So cryptically you are gonna go for a standard 15 then?

 

[Leindt]

Come on guys, every day we are closer to having the sun in our hands 😎😎😎

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[CocoPlops999]

What phones are people heading towards instead of the iPhones?

 

[ashtehri]

What phones are people heading towards instead of the iPhones?

I just found Motorola Moto G Stylus (2023) is LCD screen phone, with 6 GB ram. I personally cant stand Oled screen phones. I tried S23 FE last week, I couldn't handled more than two days. Currently using Iphone 11. Most likely I will stay with Iphone or may get SE 2 if needed. I do us Apple watch daily and like car play. I am not too optimistic about any new Iphone with LCD screen any time soon. I dont understand how Apple / Samsung & any other big company not care about this serious issue. This is a really good business opportunity for someone to come up with good LCD screen high spec phone and market well.

 

[CocoPlops999]

I just found Motorola Moto G Stylus (2023) is LCD screen phone, with 6 GB ram. I personally cant stand Oled screen phones. I tried S23 FE last week, I couldn't handled more than two days. Currently using Iphone 11. Most likely I will stay with Iphone or may get SE 2 if needed. I do us Apple watch daily and like car play. I am not too optimistic about any new Iphone with LCD screen any time soon. I dont understand how Apple / Samsung & any other big company not care about this serious issue. This is a really good business opportunity for someone to come up with good LCD screen high spec phone and market well.

That’s one of my issues, I use an Apple Watch 😩

 

[jimmy_uk]

I just found Motorola Moto G Stylus (2023) is LCD screen phone, with 6 GB ram. I personally cant stand Oled screen phones. I tried S23 FE last week, I couldn't handled more than two days. Currently using Iphone 11. Most likely I will stay with Iphone or may get SE 2 if needed. I do us Apple watch daily and like car play. I am not too optimistic about any new Iphone with LCD screen any time soon. I dont understand how Apple / Samsung & any other big company not care about this serious issue. This is a really good business opportunity for someone to come up with good LCD screen high spec phone and market well.

Sadly the LCD boat has sailed as all marketing has gone towards OLED being superior so this is what consumers believe. It started with TVs so naturally all other tech is switching as LCD manufacturing winds down. It's happened slowly but now we are reaching peak OLED.

 

[MICHAELSD]

So cryptically you are gonna go for a standard 15 then?

I’ve been testing iPhone 15 Plus, and I was ready to come here stating that it’s been the best OLED iPhone, by far, and even started making plans to keep it longer term.

Initial impressions, as they usually are lately, have been more promising than expected. There wasn’t some massive headache response when opening and setting iPhone 15 Plus up. I was even able to use it for at least the first night and watch an episode of Ted Lasso without throbbing behind my eyes.

My experience was at least better than it has been when I’ve tried testing a demo in a store, particularly coming from iPhone 15 Pro. I didn’t even immediately jump back into this thread.

It’s not awful now, but I am starting to feel some tension on my scalp. The headaches are different than other OLED iPhones in that there’s more so tension headaches, including the rubber band around the scalp effect, rather than migraines which it nonetheless has the capability to cause.

I thought about programming the auto-brightness to avoid the lowest limits of the brightness scale since slightly higher brightnesses seem more comfortable, but after finally getting around to doing a slow-motion analysis nearly all brightness levels look similar. In fact, it reminds me very much of iPhone X on camera despite what others have captured that looks more tame.

This is still the same aggressive flickering that we’re accustomed to, perhaps with a little more moderation and consistency.

As far as usability, keeping the brightness at 75% or 100% with Reduce White Point or the low-light filter in Zoom does work better than other iPhones. But I stand by auto-brightness being more or less an essential device function.

The lower modulations paired to the refresh rate, if that’s accurate, do provide a better experience than iPhone 15 Pro thus far.

But I do wish we could have that paired to modulations that are at .75% across the brightness range. Why is it so difficult to do that while keeping colors accurate?

So, iPhone 15 Plus - better than expected, less straining than iPhone 15 Pro, one of the best OLED iPhones, but still afflicted by horrendous flickering that causes headaches during and after use.

 

[den1s85]

Hi, I'm new to this topic. I read a little about what you write here, and I want to say that the problem is not only with Apple. I just recently found out that my eyes are sensitive to PWM. This happened after purchasing a Samsung S23 Ultra. I suffered for 3 weeks, finally I couldn’t stand it and sold this smartphone. After that, I looked at the iPhone 14 Pro Max and 15 Pro Max in the store, and I can say that the iPhone hurts my eyes much less, but eyes still hurts, and I still don’t want to use such a device.

I'm from Ukraine, in my country there is also a cult of Apple fans, but Android devices are just as popular here. Almost all smartphones these days have OLED/AMOLED screens. People complain in the same way about the screens of Chinese smartphones, but there are especially many complaints about the screens of Samsung devices. As you know, displays for iPhone are produced by 3 or 4 companies, one of which is Samsung. Because of this, I have a theory that perhaps not all iPhone screens are the same, and perhaps there is some way to find an iPhone whose display is made by not Samsung. Perhaps there is some kind of code marking on the iPhone packaging, or the display manufacturer can be identified by the serial number or IMEI. If you know a way to determine the manufacturer, please write about it.

 

[Stig722]

Looking to get a new MacBook, and suffer from PWM on OLED iPhones, hence I'm stuck with an iPhone 11. Which of the new MacBooks don't have PWM issues? M1/M2/M3 pro or air?

 

[MICHAELSD]

I should reiterate that iPhone 15 Plus may just be the best OLED iPhone overall for PWM-sensitive users, but by no means does that make it a comfortable display to use and stare at for hours on end. Reduce White Point at higher brightness levels also works better than it typically does, but I’m leaving auto-brightness on to see if my hypothesis that ~ 25%+ brightness is the most usable. There is slightly more consistency here than we’re used to seeing, and the lower the modulation the better the display looks. Nonetheless, I’m fairly certain my impression will grow more negative if I try to get a full day out of it. Also, I’m confused at which size I prefer but that may be influenced by not having a good experience with either. The Razr+ foldable form factor was wonderful and the display was more pleasing to the eyes, but it unfortunately still caused some degree of headaches after use.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Looking to get a new MacBook, and suffer from PWM on OLED iPhones, hence I'm stuck with an iPhone 11. Which of the new MacBooks don't have PWM issues? M1/M2/M3 pro or air?

I’ve read the most positive comments towards the MBA 15”. No PWM, likely still has dithering though. This is the model I’d like to buy, I just haven’t committed to the £2k spend yet. MBP all have PWM.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Hi, I'm new to this topic. I read a little about what you write here, and I want to say that the problem is not only with Apple. I just recently found out that my eyes are sensitive to PWM. This happened after purchasing a Samsung S23 Ultra. I suffered for 3 weeks, finally I couldn’t stand it and sold this smartphone. After that, I looked at the iPhone 14 Pro Max and 15 Pro Max in the store, and I can say that the iPhone hurts my eyes much less, but eyes still hurts, and I still don’t want to use such a device.

I'm from Ukraine, in my country there is also a cult of Apple fans, but Android devices are just as popular here. Almost all smartphones these days have OLED/AMOLED screens. People complain in the same way about the screens of Chinese smartphones, but there are especially many complaints about the screens of Samsung devices. As you know, displays for iPhone are produced by 3 or 4 companies, one of which is Samsung. Because of this, I have a theory that perhaps not all iPhone screens are the same, and perhaps there is some way to find an iPhone whose display is made by not Samsung. Perhaps there is some kind of code marking on the iPhone packaging, or the display manufacturer can be identified by the serial number or IMEI. If you know a way to determine the manufacturer, please write about it.

I think many have tried this method with no joy. The only way to know the screen manufacturer is to plug the phone into a computer and run third-party software.

 

[MICHAELSD]

I’ve read the most positive comments towards the MBA 15”. No PWM, likely still has dithering though. This is the model I’d like to buy, I just haven’t committed to the £2k spend yet.

You may have a better experience with iPhone 15 Plus than you did with iPhone 15 Pro Max, but all these displays still flicker at standards that are below what should be considered acceptable in a consumer device.

 

[jimmy_uk]

I should reiterate that iPhone 15 Plus may just be the best OLED iPhone overall for PWM-sensitive users, but by no means does that make it a comfortable display to use and stare at for hours on end. Reduce White Point at higher brightness levels also works better than it typically does, but I’m leaving auto-brightness on to see if my hypothesis that ~ 25%+ brightness is the most usable. There is slightly more consistency here than we’re used to seeing, and the lower the modulation the better the display looks. Nonetheless, I’m fairly certain my impression will grow more negative if I try to get a full day out of it. Also, I’m confused at which size I prefer but that may be influenced by not having a good experience with either. The Razr+ foldable form factor was wonderful and the display was more pleasing to the eyes, but it unfortunately still caused some degree of headaches after use.

Your 15 Plus review is disappointing but not unexpected. The 15 Plus, like the Pro Max, appeal for that all-in-one experience but I’m leaning toward smaller phones now. I'd still like to try a standard 15 having had my better experiences with the standard 13 & 14. But I'm in my busy period at work - so I'm super stressed and burnt out (tired). I cannot afford any downtime if I have a negative reaction, that said, now is the time to test with the extended returns period.

I still have to conclude that the current OLED phones just ain't for us super sensitive folk. I’d like to pivot away from using my phone so much and get into the MacBook life but I still have my doubts over long-term eye comfort due to the dithering. I can't even use the iPP 11".

What’s your thinking on phone sizes now then? Also, I assume from your comments that the 15 Plus is a bust?

 

[MICHAELSD]

Your 15 Plus review is disappointing but not unexpected. The 15 Plus, like the Pro Max, appeal for that all-in-one experience but I’m leaning toward smaller phones now. I'd still like to try a standard 15 having had my better experiences with the standard 13 & 14. But I'm in my busy period at work - so I'm super stressed and burnt out (tired). I cannot afford any downtime if I have a negative reaction, that said, now is the time to test with the extended returns period.

I still have to conclude that the current OLED phones just ain't for us super sensitive folk. I’d like to pivot away from using my phone so much and get into the MacBook life but I still have my doubts over long-term eye comfort due to the dithering. I can't even use the iPP 11".

What’s your thinking on phone sizes now then? Also, I assume from your comments that the 15 Plus is a bust?

Re: phone sizes, it’s odd. I find 6.1” to feel too small and 6.7” to be too large. Perhaps the rumored 6.3” jump next year will be the Goldilocks size.

I can quantify this, but won’t go into depth since it feels self-explanatory: I still feel that iPhone 15 is the better size for the standard device, and iPhone 15 Pro Max is the better version of a Pro device. Still, I would have kept iPhone 15 Pro over iPhone 15 Plus if only the latter didn’t prove to be the better OLED experience.

At the same time, the Motorola Razr+ unfolds a usable external display into a 6.9” display within a light device and it feels, frankly, perfect. My only complaints beyond flickering still being an issue are that the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 oddly feels less smooth than an A15 Bionic, and I don’t love the required plastic screen protector on the main display—I’d much rather feel glass. Maybe I’m of the thinking now that foldable smartphones feel like a next generation and all else feels antiquated, even if they’re still ahead of their time as far as the crease and long-term durability. While iPhone 15 Pro felt more solid, the Razr+ feels more like a futuristic device. I still stand by iPhone 13 mini being the perfect size and having the best display in recent years, even if that’s influenced by its superior PWM implementation that nonetheless still caused constant throbbing behind the eyes and persistent headaches/migraines, for me at least.

Overall, I’m not going to sugarcoat: all OLED iPhone displays are truly awful for PWM-sensitive users. The results that @from reddit the_top_g found would dictate that frequencies need to be significantly higher and modulations need to be significantly lower in order not to pose a hazard to users that can’t stand display flickering, although the more research I do the more I am convinced that many more users are sensitive without realizing it, or simply accepting of migraines as a way of life. There is an order of a magnitude generational leap needed here, rather than a flat doubling of the frequencies and halving of the modulations used.

I’m typing this on my 11” iPad Pro, which is significantly more comfortable to stare at than iPhone 15 Plus.

I suppose part of the reason I continue trying new iPhones is that my life doesn’t feel complete without it, but that’s a faulty premise. While I did have an extra spring in my step with iPhone 15 Pro in my pocket, iPhone 15 Plus really doesn’t do much for me where I feel any sort of attachment like it’s making my life better. Perhaps that’s the revelation that makes trying it worth it, as Apple’s display engineers should already know that the lower the modulations are, the better the effect will be on PWM/TLM-sensitive users.

In fact, I’m now part of the group that thinks that smartphones could one day be replaced by a newer technology, perhaps not unlike Apple Vision Pro. After all, we’re only fifteen generations into the iPhone. Who knows whether we will make it to iPhone 100, or if it will be replaced by augmented reality or a technology we’ve yet to imagine.

 

[den1s85]

phone sizes, it’s odd. I find 6.1” to feel too small and 6.7” to be too large. Perhaps the rumored 6.3” jump next year will be the Goldilocks size.

Samsung S23 Ultra has a diagonal of 6.8”, but in the hand it feels exactly the way a phone should be. It has rounding on the sides, making it feel smaller than it actually is. In addition, on Android there is a back gesture that is done from the right edge of the screen and works allways with any app and in any menu. This makes it possible to use one hand in most cases. I don't understand why Apple doesn't want to do the same on their devices. The volume buttons on the left side are another example of poor ergonomics on iPhone.

In addition, the Samsung feels more premium, has a truly instantly responsive screen, better vibration feedback and a more pleasant sound when typing. In fact the S23 Ultra has a lot of these little things, it’s a device that you want to use, while the iPhone 14(15) Pro Max is just a good, but boring and not particularly convenient smartphone.

I am convinced that many more users are sensitive without realizing it, or simply accepting of migraines as a way of life.

I think so too. I've talked to a lot of people lately who are using a phone with an OLED/AMOLED screen and most of them feel some level of discomfort.

 

[Roadstar]

In addition, on Android there is a back gesture that is done from the right edge of the screen and works allways with any app and in any menu. This makes it possible to use one hand in most cases. I don't understand why Apple doesn't want to do the same on their devices.

To be precise, the back button is on the left on stock Android and most other manufacturers. It's been a Samsung thing to have it on the right side by default, but luckily nowadays with virtual buttons the order is easily swappable to meet your needs.

 

[den1s85]

To be precise, the back button is on the left on stock Android and most other manufacturers. It's been a Samsung thing to have it on the right side by default, but luckily nowadays with virtual buttons the order is easily swappable to meet your needs.

Yes, there are buttons there by default. I immediately switched them to gestures, because it’s much more convenient. It’s good that Android users have a choice of what and how to use on their phone.