Game of Thrones (HBO)

[sunapple]

Dany's snap was long in the making and made a lot of sense to me when watching the episode. It's so strange to read all the hateful comments (YouTube) after being so happy with it myself, although at this point the 'fans' have collectively given up and redemption is pretty much impossible no matter what they write next. I understand the criticism on the last two episodes, but I personally loved 8-05 and think the show has redeemed itself.

Great comment BTW, @smallcoffee ^, I agree.

When it comes to Dany, no matter how much she's tried to be good, she's always had huge setbacks every step of the way. Paired with the fact that more and more people started to wonder if she was right for the throne, she decided all she had left to use was fear, something she's literally said.

I guess for the people watching the show, Dany is one their favorite characters and it comes as a shock that she would 'suddenly' snap, I'm reading people blaming the show writers to just care about epic battles and willing to throw away her arc. I think they haven't been paying close attention.
[doublepost=1557749330][/doublepost]

[...]Arya? WTF? She changes her mind at the last minute and runs away? Then rides out of King's Landing on the last remaining living thing for miles? Please.[...]

To be fair, Clegane changed her mind in his new 'fatherly' role. It would have been quite annoying if she got to kill both NK and Cersei, or simply died trying to kill Cersei while having survived killing NK. I wasn't really sure what she was going to do once she's arrived at Kings Landing this episode, was she trying to finish her List as the naive child she was in the beginning of the show? Nope, luckily she walked away.

 

[yaxomoxay]

RIP Jaime's character development.

I disagree. Character development doesn't necessarily mean that the bad guy becomes the good guy, or that the weak becomes the hero, forgetting who and what he was in the past. Character development simply means growth of the character as he/she has more information and experience to decide on which path to take.
Jaime - among others - grew quite a lot. He didn't kill anyone that was unnecessary to kill. He could've kill Sansa, but he knew that the Starks were right. He didn't kill anyone to get to the gates. He didn't do anything evil; that's the same guy who pushed a kid out of a window. No matter his growth, the bottom line is that he loved Cersei so he decided that in the face of almost certain death, he had to do the honorable thing: save the love of his life (no matter how twisted is that she is his sister).
[doublepost=1557753605][/doublepost]

Arya? WTF? She changes her mind at the last minute and runs away?

She didn't change her mind. Cersei was facing certain death, and Arya is not stupid to self-sacrifice herself for a result that is certain to happen already. If anything, this shows how much she grew up.
[doublepost=1557753830][/doublepost]

So frustrating they took a bunch of good characters, developed them over 6 seasons and then scrambled them all. Terrible.

Their development is over, and we see who they truly are.
Dany is the psychotic most of us that loved her knew deep down that she was.
Jon is the rightful dude, always has been, always will be.
Arya is the same adventurous girl of S1, but she is less impulsive.
Jamie is in love with his own sister, but he's not the evil dude he thought he was.
And so on.
I am honestly puzzled by some of the comments...

 

[zmunkz]

Dany's snap was long in the making and made a lot of sense to me when watching the episode

Yeah, but not really. They spent 6.5 years showing how she wasn’t her father. How she had a ruthless streak checked by a good heart and honest intentions. Until Jon won’t sleep with her, then suddenly she’s a psychopath.

The worst thing is how franticly they tried to telegraph this change starting this season.

To be fair, Clegane changed her mind in his new 'fatherly' role. It would have been quite annoying if she got to kill both NK and Cersei, or simply died trying to kill Cersei while having survived killing NK. I wasn't really sure what she was going to do once she's arrived at Kings Landing this episode, was she trying to finish her List as the naive child she was in the beginning of the show? Nope, luckily she walked away.

Agree. She realized she could be more than just an instrument of revenge. That makes her perfect to kill Dany.

I disagree. Character development doesn't necessarily mean that the bad guy becomes the good guy,

Of course it doesn’t. But it does mean a character follows an arc, for better or worse, and the arc lands. If Jamie had been the only character wrenched off course this season, it would have just been a tragic subversion, and would have made sense. But when its half the characters suddenly abandoning their arc, it makes them all seem like betrayals for the sake of “twists.”

 

[Huntn]

Sorry to pick on you out this was the first/shortest comment

This is exactly GoT. He “developed” and then did the most human thing ever. You (not you specifically) wanted this heroic redemption story and you got it, until the last minute when the hero chooses what we the viewers think is the wrong thing. That’s good story telling. Everybody over-analyzing the he said stuff to The Big Woman for all these reasons and you got fooled. You thought there was this hero story - and there wasn’t. He died because all along he loved Cersei and that’s what he realized.

Ok, when I think about it and use my logic and not my emotions, I can conceded your points. Maybe I can understand how Martin got writer’s block. But it is also the shortcoming and short changing of telling this story which has been evident since Season 2 when compared to the books. Although they had a lot of hours to tell it, it was not enough and imo, they made not great choices for my viewing entertainment in this episode.

• The battle at the Wall and Winterfell, did a much better job of portraying an epic battle, but at the end, they made it look like the Walkers were just finishing off a couple of stragglers until Ayra jumped in and reversed the tide. While I can buy her saving the day, I do not like how this episode was portrayed because...
• They led you to believe, that Daenery’s forces had been beat to ****, and left you wondering if they could hold up in a battle, much less take Kings Landing. I was expecting this final Kings Landing battle to be iffy not just bowling them over with explosive fire.
• Where was the land battle and where were Cercei’s forces? The group out front who got toasted looked like a couple hundred soldiers. By the narrative, pre-battle, Cersei appeared to have the edge with forces and this felt like another short changed battle.
• While I can see losing a dragon to the Dark King, with his special ice spear, they really made the dragons appear rather impotent and perishable, when one was brought down with a scorpion as soon as it flew within range of one. Yes this could of happened just like it did, but she already lost one Dragon to a projectile, and talk about taking the winds out of our sails!
• Then in a reversal, the single Dragon becomes an omnipotent force of destruction. Who needed an army?

Here is the challenge with the climax of this story- I don’t think anyone wanted the Dragon Queen to just waltz into King’s Landing, but I imagined a way where the magnificence of this story would shine in an amazing climax, but instead it was a let down and not satisfying. Martin set it up, naturally I was hoping they, in this case, HBO could follow through, but I ended up disappointed, with an expectations problem.

This is the difficulty of telling a story like this when one side wields basically an omnipotent force. How do you maintain tension, some doubt, and have a worthy climax? This element can also be observed in the movie Lucy (2014) where she becomes omnipotent, and why it’s climax seemed underwhelming to some, although I like the ending enlight of the omnipotence element.

For GoTs, they dealt with the pending slam dunk by maintaining tension with the Battle of Winterfell but went overboard in the depiction of the magnitude of the pending loss imo, by knocking off 2 dragons with ease, and then the Mad Queen element defying her advisors. We will now get one more episode to resolve Jon, Arya, and Deaneries. It seems logical and possible, but so far it has not been satisfying for me. As I said, an expectations problem. For my investment in this story, I wanted satisfying story telling perfection. Maybe if Martin ever finishes the book series, he’ll redeem himself.

 

[smallcoffee]

Yeah, but not really. They spent 6.5 years showing how she wasn’t her father. How she had a ruthless streak checked by a good heart and honest intentions. Until Jon won’t sleep with her, then suddenly she’s a psychopath.

It seemed to me she had a good heart that was checked by pragmatic advisors. Then she lost them, two of her dragons, and finally with the throne in sight she says **** all this and all of you. She burned the two Tarley men as well. She has always had a “with me or burn” mentality and finally it came to bear.

 

[zmunkz]

I guess. Tyrion was convinced she was the real thing. And Jon. Looks like the writers decided to make them blind morons to help lead us on.

 

[Falhófnir]

Another episode of mixed emotions, I'm trying to just enjoy it for what it is, though there's a lot to ignore or try to reconcile for that to work..

Jaime, yeah I was ok with him going back to Cersei in the end. Ultimately the whole time he's known what a monster she is, but she has always been the one he loved. Maybe they went a bot too overboard on him and Brienne, but it was a reasonably satisfactory ending for him.

Cersei, well, her little brother didn't strangle her so...? But again, was pretty satisfied with her demise, we got that glimpse of the vulnerable human underneath again after so long of just seeing the out and out evil queen.

The Hound went out doing what he wanted to do all along, so pretty happy with that. He also had the redeeming moments with Sansa and Arya over the last few episodes, so thought that wrapped things up nicely for him.

Arya was kinda just there this episode... I get she's not always going to be killing undead ice lords, but did she really need the screen time (unless it's setting up for her killing Dany for what she's done next episode? )

With Dany, frankly this seemed a bit much. So focused on getting the Iron throne she doesn't notice what she's doing or who she's killing? that'd be fair enough, but outright murdering civilians is completely not her, and no amount of 'foreshadowing' can smooth over what is too radical a character shift to be believable, especially done over a couple of hour and a half episodes...

Spoiler: From this to that?!

 

[sunapple]

Yeah, but not really. They spent 6.5 years showing how she wasn’t her father. How she had a ruthless streak checked by a good heart and honest intentions. Until Jon won’t sleep with her, then suddenly she’s a psychopath.

My point was actually that they didn't just "spent 6.5 years showing how she wasn’t her father" and therefore didn't "suddenly" turn her into "a psychopath". Rather, they showed us little cracks in her character, as said by @smallcoffee above, and then gave us the final snap now at the end of the show.

It was always a big question-mark whether Dany could keep it together and her advisors spent a lot of time telling her to not burn down the city. It happened anyway because Dany has a strong will and is a Targaryen after all. Makes more sense than a peaceful resolution and a civilized hanging of Cersei IMO.

I guess. Tyrion was convinced she was the real thing. And Jon. Looks like the writers decided to make them blind morons to help lead us on.

There was a lot of evidence she was, which attributes to the twist being more interesting, but in my view, not less realistic.

 

[smallcoffee]

I guess. Tyrion was convinced she was the real thing. And Jon. Looks like the writers decided to make them blind morons to help lead us on.

Then that makes us all blind too - because a lot of people were rooting for her and thought she was a good guy. You could practically hear the celebrations across the world when she sailed to Dragonstone.

I don’t understand why everything has to be an extreme reaction. Jon and Tyrion are blind and morons because they believe in Dany until they saw her torch King’s Landing to the ground?

 

[Huntn]

I like this article :
'Game of Thrones' Season 8, Episode 5 recap: Just one long 80-minute 'AAAAHHH!!!'
If someone asks you about what happened this week on that little dragon show you watch, you are more than allowed to just scream at full volume for an hour and 20 minutes. Because that's what this episode was. Just one, long 80-minute "AAAAHHH!!!"

 

[Bug-Creator]

They spent 6.5 years showing how she wasn’t her father.

Did her father start as "the mad prince"?

If they had portrayed mad from day one she would never been such an believable leader, same if she had turned over time.

So yeah, making her snap made perfect sense.

 

[smallcoffee]

I like this article :
'Game of Thrones' Season 8, Episode 5 recap: Just one long 80-minute 'AAAAHHH!!!'
If someone asks you about what happened this week on that little dragon show you watch, you are more than allowed to just scream at full volume for an hour and 20 minutes. Because that's what this episode was. Just one, long 80-minute "AAAAHHH!!!"

I hate this kind of snarky writing. You could do the same thing with LOTR.

WRT Clegenebowl

Again, gentle reminder: Everything is burning! Is now the best time to be settling personal scores?

Yes because the Hound is hell-bent on killing the Mountain and because, oh, idk, it’s a dramatic fantasy movie?

 

[Huntn]

I hate this kind of snarky writing. You could do the same thing with LOTR.

WRT Clegenebowl


Yes because the Hound is hell-bent on killing the Mountain and because, oh, idk, it’s a dramatic fantasy movie?

It’s just as valid as any opinion. There are reasons and some fans will be disappointed.

 

[smallcoffee]

It’s just as valid as any opinion. There are reasons and some fans will be disappointed.

Validity isn’t the same thing as being good or worthwhile.

 

[Falhófnir]

My point was actually that they didn't just "spent 6.5 years showing how she wasn’t her father" and therefore didn't "suddenly" turn her into "a psychopath". Rather, they showed us little cracks in her character, as said by @smallcoffee above, and then gave us the final snap now at the end of the show.

It was always a big question-mark whether Dany could keep it together and her advisors spent a lot of time telling her to not burn down the city. It happened anyway because Dany has a strong will and is a Targaryen after all. Makes more sense than a peaceful resolution and a civilized hanging of Cersei IMO.

There was a lot of evidence she was, which attributes to the twist being more interesting, but in my view, not less realistic.

I agree there is foreshadowing of this sort of thing being the final destination for the character - to the point I believe this was Martin's original intention. However, I think the show has been too ham fisted about it. It was something you really needed to get inside her head to understand, and the show can't do that quite as well as the books at the best of times, let alone when they have two abbreviated seasons to do it in. Honestly if the reasoning behind this is 'because it's what the author envisaged' - it should have been for the show bosses to recognise there was no good way to get there from where she was at the end of season 6 and change it to suit what they reasonably could do in the allotted screen time. Have her go out fighting the night king or something instead if she had to die. For this big a personality change, foreshadowing isn't enough, you need to see it happening and what's causing it, and really there was nothing to make her turn into a cold blooded murderer by burning down the civilian parts of the city. Going after the Red Keep and Cersei even after they'd surrendered? Maybe that could have worked, but that's arguably justified given what Cersei has done, so that doesn't make her enough of a despot so they had to heel turn her into something she isn't.

 

[smallcoffee]

Ultimately I think the show will age much better as something to binge watch. We forget so many details over the years...

 

[AustinIllini]

A character shift like this shouldn't be "foreshadowed". A character shift of this degree should occur over multiple seasons.

Worst change of character since Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader after one conversation.

 

[sunapple]

Ultimately I think the show will age much better as something to binge watch. We forget so many details over the years...

Which is why I started binging it last December, watching the season 7 finale right before S08 started. It was amazing and provided me with so many details on the story that I missed before, easily becoming my favorite TV show.

I agree there is foreshadowing of this sort of thing being the final destination for the character - to the point I believe this was Martin's original intention. However, I think the show has been too ham fisted about it. It was something you really needed to get inside her head to understand, and the show can't do that quite as well as the books at the best of times, let alone when they have two abbreviated seasons to do it in. Honestly if the reasoning behind this is 'because it's what the author envisaged' - it should have been for the show bosses to recognise there was no good way to get there from where she was at the end of season 6 and change it to suit what they reasonably could do in the allotted screen time. Have her go out fighting the night king or something instead if she had to die. For this big a personality change, foreshadowing isn't enough, you need to see it happening and what's causing it, and really there was nothing to make her turn into a cold blooded murderer by burning down the civilian parts of the city. Going after the Red Keep and Cersei even after they'd surrendered? Maybe that could have worked, but that's arguably justified given what Cersei has done, so that doesn't make her enough of a despot so they had to heel turn her into something she isn't.

There're definitely issues with pacing in these last two seasons, it all feels crammed and some parts happened completely off screen. It's a shame of course, I would've loved more detail. However, I don't think that should've made them change the entire storyline just to make it that much more predictable for the audience. There are issues with the writing, but I don't think the overall arcs are a part of that.

I'm not sure if there wasn't enough time in those two seasons, or if people just missed or forgot details about her character and story.

 

[yaxomoxay]

Spoiler: From this to that?!

Bottom line: choose your prophets wisely.
[doublepost=1557765345][/doublepost]

A character shift like this shouldn't be "foreshadowed". A character shift of this degree should occur over multiple seasons.

Worst change of character since Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader after one conversation.

Then you haven't paid attention. Her character flaws were very visible. How many times her counselors had to chill her out? She crucified innocents people, she burned defenseless people.
As the adage goes, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. She was close to absolute power, and she snapped.

 

[AustinIllini]

Bottom line: choose your prophets wisely.
[doublepost=1557765345][/doublepost]

Then you haven't paid attention. Her character flaws were very visible. How many times her counselors had to chill her out? She crucified innocents people, she burned defenseless people.
As the adage goes, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. She was close to absolute power, and she snapped.

She crucified slave owners because they were her enemies. She burned her enemies.

She has never shown any signs of truly incinerating innocent people.

"Snapped" implies some sort of psychotic break, which is not in Daenerys' character at all. You're making excuses for bad execution in a bad season of a show.

 

[Khalanad75]

She crucified slave owners because they were her enemies. She burned her enemies.

She has never shown any signs of truly incinerating innocent people.

"Snapped" implies some sort of psychotic break, which is not in Daenerys' character at all. You're making excuses for bad execution in a bad season of a show.

In her mind, they weren't innocent. They didn't rebel and throw open the gates so the "true" heir to the throne could just walk in and take her seat.

She has always been like this, you just refused to see it. It was always, kneel or die.

As much as she talked about delivering the people from tyranny, she never saw herself as one, which she was and is.

 

[yaxomoxay]

She crucified slave owners because they were her enemies.

Among those she crucified there were people that were against slavery (or harsh slavery)

She burned her enemies.
She has never shown any signs of truly incinerating innocent people.

​

Ah but that's the point! SHE decides who and what is her enemy. It's all about her perception, clearly dependant on her mood. THAT is a very dangerous thing in a leader with three dragons. She KNOWS that only Jon Snow will be perceived as the true heir to the throne HENCE everyone is her enemy because no one - not a single one of her subjects - will truly love her! That IS the core characteristic of Dany's character!!
​

"Snapped" implies some sort of psychotic break, which is not in Daenerys' character at all. .

From the GOT wiki

"Having always flirted dangerously close to the famed “Targaryen Madness” of her ancestors, Danaerys is driven further to the brink by the terrible losses inflicted on her in the closing stages of the war"

Under Personality (not updated yet after yesterday):
"her pent-up frustration from years of being mentally and physically dominated by her petty would-be-king of a brother make Daenerys capable of being utterly ruthless against those she perceives as oppressing others. This has produced a large amount of black-white thinking in Daenerys's mind, and she can be idealistic to a fault. "
"After she took the city, instead of pardoning the slave-masters, she had 163 of them crucified in retribution, including many who opposed the crucifixion of the children, unconcerned about any negative political fallout which would result. Daenerys has also shown herself to be quite vengeful on several occasions to certain individuals for various grievances.
" Tyrion also seemed to believe that her execution of Randyll and Dickon Tarly to be the result of losing her temper rather than deliberate ruthlessness. Although she has certainly become more ruthless over time, unlike her father Daenerys has never acted with deliberate cruelty; when she executes her enemies she does so swiftly, rather than torturing them to death for amusement, as Aerys did. "
"Unlike many in her House, Daenerys has thus far not exhibited the "Targaryen madness" that plagued her father (and to a lesser extent, Viserys). She can be ruthless to her perceived enemies, but while Viserys was cruel and demanding to his servants and even his benefactors, Daenerys reciprocates the loyalty of those who follow her with gratitude and compassion, especially her inner circle of friends and her dragons. On the other hand, insanity was often a late-onset condition in the Targaryens, and it remains to be seen how Daenerys's mentality develops as she matures. One could argue that burning the remaining men of House Tarly with dragonfire could be a telltale sign of Targaryen madness, however, both were men in open rebellion to her who refused to bend the knee, thus making the distinction different. "
[doublepost=1557766182][/doublepost]

In her mind, they weren't innocent. They didn't rebel and throw open the gates so the "true" heir to the throne could just walk in and take her seat.

She has always been like this, you just refused to see it. It was always, kneel or die.

As much as she talked about delivering the people from tyranny, she never saw herself as one, which she was and is.

EXACTLY!!!!
[doublepost=1557766457][/doublepost]Let me add this. I think that Tyrion made a HUGE mistake in asking to wait for the sound of the bells (he said "If they think the battle is lost, they will go against Cersei" or something like this).
The fact that they sounded the bells (and asked for it to Cersei; remember, they were saying "Queen sound the bells!"), and opened the gates is THE final proof that her subjects WILL betray her because they see her as illegitimate as Cersei. They will only see Jon Snow as the legit king (they surrendered to him, not her), so they are all traitors in her eyes.

 

[Krayzkat]

RIP Game Of Thrones season 1-6

 

[bigjnyc]

Ultimately I think the show will age much better as something to binge watch. We forget so many details over the years...

This is what I've been doing... I've never been in to GoT because I'm just not in to the genre. But with all of the hype around it I decided to give it a shot.... I have basically watched the first 6 seasons in a span of 3 weeks. I am currently getting ready to start season 7 (And I don't mind reading spoilers so I am pretty aware of everything that happens in season 8)

Anyhow all this to say that you are absolutely right, when I read that Daenerys went dark I wasn't surprised at all... She showed signs throughout the entire show that she was ruthless and willing to burn down an entire city with innocent lives in order to achieve her goal.... The only difference was she always had Jorah and then Barristan and missandei to advise her and talk her off the ledge.

 

[jkcerda]

https://thechive.com/2019/05/13/mem...5k7UKCFQ1UHH8QKwxQRQFIVXPzApvavlKNDxTZR0bW1hQ
last night surprised the hell out of me