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sunapple

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I hated the red wedding so much that I almost stopped watching the show.. It still angers me that Robb and Catelyn were killed that way. The whole "avenge their fathers death" story line was cut short in the most asinine way. Absolute worst part of this show, it was lazy, shoddy writing.

It was a pivotal moment for the entire story, one of my favorite moments and a true characteristic of GRRMs writing (haven’t read the books btw). Nothing personal, no attack or anything, but I’m curious why you feel that way (other than the obvious pain it causes when watching, for it is a truly dramatic scene).
 

Shanghaichica

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Apr 8, 2013
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UK
How would his support for Targaryens be explained then? He isn't one and nothing in his character would make him loyal to any particular family, right?



This is where what I've read about Varys and my knowledge of what's in the book or on TV ends; Varys sends assassins to murder Dany, however, he also warns Jorah to protect Dany suggesting he didn't actually want to kill her, but rather stay in favor with King Robert. Was this different on TV? Don't remember exactly.

He did not know about Jon/Aegon at first right? Not in the books either I suppose? I'm not sure what you mean there.
In the books there’s another Targaryen (Aegon) who is purporting to be Rhaegar’s son. The one who was supposed to have be killed by the mountain as a baby. In the book he didn’t die and he was taken away from Westeros all under Varys orders. It’s that Targaryen that Varys has been secretly supporting for all these years

In the books Jon hasn’t been revealed as Rhaegar’s son yet. However in the TV they seem to have merged Jon and Aegon into the same character.
 

sunapple

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In the books there’s another Targaryen (Aegon) who is purporting to be Rhaegar’s son. The one who was supposed to have be killed by the mountain as a baby. In the book he didn’t die and he was taken away from Westeros all under Varys orders. It’s that Targaryen that Varys has been secretly supporting for all these years

In the books Jon hasn’t been revealed as Rhaegar’s son yet. However in the TV they seem to have merged Jon and Aegon into the same character.

Okay, interesting. Already thought it was pretty confusing having two Aegons, but they seem to both be alive too.. The books are going to be interesting alright. Pretty complicated history lessons in those theories, it's still not entirely clear who Aegon really is and what Varys's motivations are.

Anyway, in the show Varys isn't after Aegon (unless they introduce him in the next episode, a likely move given the pacing-problems LOL). There's no reason in the show to doubt his motivations then. He's not as complicated as in the books, but that would've been hard to add to this format. I wouldn't call him a complete idiot though.
 
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Shanghaichica

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Apr 8, 2013
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Okay, interesting. Already thought it was pretty confusing having two Aegons, but they seem to both be alive too.. The books are going to be interesting alright. Pretty complicated history lessons in those theories, it's still not entirely clear who Aegon really is and what Varys's motivations are.

Anyway, in the show Varys isn't after Aegon (unless they introduce him in the next episode, a likely move given the pacing-problems LOL). There's no reason in the show to doubt his motivations then. He's not as complicated as in the books, but that would've been hard to add to this format. I wouldn't call him a complete idiot though.
Yes the book Varys is more complicated. He sends assassins to kill Danny and says all he does is for the good of the Realm. He doesn’t ever really make his intentions clear but he’s always plotting and scheming behind the scenes. Then in A dance with dragons he goes missing from king’s landing for several months. Then he returns sneaking in through all the back passages and Murders Grand Maester Pycelle and Kevan Lannister. It’s then that he declares his support for Aegon (Rhaegar’s son, not Jon). It’s revealed that he got him out of Westeros for his safety as a baby and has been protecting him from a far until the time he can come back to reclaim his throne.
 
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sunapple

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Yes the book Varys is more complicated. He sends assassins to kill Danny and says all he does is for the good of the Realm. He doesn’t ever really make his intentions clear but he’s always plotting and scheming behind the scenes. Then in A dance with dragons he goes missing from king’s landing for several months. Then he returns sneaking in through all the back passages and Murders Grand Maester Pycelle and Kevan Lannister. It’s then that he declares his support for Aegon (Rhaegar’s son, not Jon). It’s revealed that he got him out of Westeros for his safety as a baby and has been protecting him from a far until the time he can come back to reclaim his throne.

Read that not everyone is convinced he's the real deal, main wiki pages about him don't even mention he's alive. This seems to go deeper than any TV show could convey, at least, not while simultaneously asking the audience to understand the Jon Snow / Aegon story. :D

Is it even possible to read the books one time and get these quite important details? :eek:
 

Shanghaichica

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Apr 8, 2013
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UK
Read that not everyone is convinced he's the real deal, main wiki pages about him don't even mention he's alive. This seems to go deeper than any TV show could convey, at least, not while simultaneously asking the audience to understand the Jon Snow / Aegon story. :D

Is it even possible to read the books one time and get these quite important details? :eek:
It’s possible that it isn’t really Aegon but unfortunately Martin hasn’t written any more books since that reveal.

It took me a while to read all the books before they are so long and detailed. I’m still reading blood and Fire (about the original Targaryen’s conquest of Westeros). It’s taking a long time.
 

sunapple

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It’s possible that it isn’t really Aegon but unfortunately Martin hasn’t written any more books since that reveal.

It took me a while to read all the books before they are so long and detailed. I’m still reading blood and Fire (about the original Targaryen’s conquest of Westeros). It’s taking a long time.

I bet! I’m not much of a reader unfortunately, but I want to do it anyway. I’m hoping for a long daily commute by train in the future or something, enabled me to watch many TV series (including most of my recent GoT binge) in the past!
 
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JBGoode

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Jun 16, 2018
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It’s possible that it isn’t really Aegon but unfortunately Martin hasn’t written any more books since that reveal.

It took me a while to read all the books before they are so long and detailed. I’m still reading blood and Fire (about the original Targaryen’s conquest of Westeros). It’s taking a long time.

I’m baffled as to why Martin decided to add this plot line in the 5th book when he should have been winding things down. Were there any hints that this was coming? It’s been a while but I recall thinking the series was ‘jumping the shark’ at that point. I really wasn’t interested in a new character that came out of nowhere.
 

smallcoffee

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Oct 15, 2014
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North America
I enjoyed reading this:

A lot of people complain that the shifts in a lot of characters' arcs felt too sudden in this episode. They're not wrong. Because they also did for the characters themselves, as the entire episode is about who we all are, or what we reveal ourselves to be the moment fear takes control of us. It's sudden and dramatic by fear's very nature. The episode's title, "The Bells", even calls to attention the precise instant this happens for most of our key characters.

We see it in the war scene itself. It's not so much "one good side versus one bad side" as much as it is just one collective mass of people scared ******** fighting for their lives, and all it takes is one catalyst to bring that collective fear all the way to the forefront and, amidst pure chaos, for everyone to find out who they truly are.

Dany is that catalyst. As we know, she is already afraid. But once she hears the bells of surrender in King's Landing, that's the moment the fear fully takes hold of her. The throne, the one thing she's always wanted is now finally hers for the taking. The people of King's Landing do not love her, and she will not lose the product of her life's work the way she did everything else, so she does the only other thing she sees she can do: "Let it be fear". She torches the city.

So, motivated by fear, this is the very moment she puts the fear in everyone else. The walls break down completely. All masks come off. Everyone's true selves and desires rush to the forefront.

Grey Worm, feeling only wrath from the love taken from him, seizes this opportunity to massacre innocent surrendering forces.

Formerly surrendering forces fight for their lives. They want only to survive.

Some of the victorious forces of the North do the same, while others seize the opportunity to wreak savagery upon innocents. It's who they were all along, and we've taken their good will for granted.

We've all seen Jon Snow's face of realization: "This is wrong. This was wrong all along." From that point on, he can only make futile attempts to correct what can't be undone.

Knowing it's all over, Cersei's thoughts turn entirely to her unborn child. It's not about "who wins" the throne anymore. To her, the throne was merely her and her family's refuge, a refuge she held by committing countless evils in the name of protecting herself and those she loved. Now, all she knows is that she cannot let her unborn baby die, not here. She flees. She weeps for her child.

And even among all of this, the sound of the bells was only the moment the fear hit most of our characters. Others had fear take control of them slightly prior, but the bells served as the crossroads for those very fears nonetheless.

The moment fear took control of Jaime was one episode prior. By every observable metric, he was a changed man that had every intention of atoning for his past. But the moment Sansa told him that Cersei would be executed without him, that's when his fear took hold. He could not let the woman he'd loved his entire life, from the moment of their birth, die without him there. It was not a "reversal" or "squandering" of his character arc. He had indeed become a better man. But he was the only person to ever see that side of Cersei, and he was afraid to let it die. Even at the moment of he and Cersei's death, he tells her "it’s just us, that's all that matters". The fear made him realize that his memory of that love is all he would have been content with, and given familial love being the sole motivator for all of Cersei's sociopathy, it was literally his answer to her lifelong struggle.

Obviously, The Hound fears his brother. He knows this crossroads at King's Landing is his chance. He fears NOT getting revenge, and Arya thinks she shares this in common with him. So as a litmus test, he makes it as clear as he can to Arya: if you follow me down this path, you will die.

And despite all her talk, that is the moment the fear hits Arya. She doesn't want to die. She runs through the streets trying to escape, and in doing so finds that she doesn't want the people to die as well. Fear triggers her survival impulses, not just for herself, but for others as well. She's afraid to die. There's more she needs to do. There's more everyone needs to do.

And lastly, or firstly rather, seeing the crisis of "the bells" coming days in advance in true character fashion, Varys remains the person he's always been. He fears the wrong person being seated on the throne, one that leads by instilling this very fear in them at all, the fear that arises from fire and blood.

And that, my friends, is why this episode is brilliant. It is pure Game of Thrones. We're nothing but sacks of meat and blood, and some bone to keep it all standing. When life-or-death fear hits, we become our basest, most elemental selves, and no one is invulnerable.

TL;DR: Characters' arcs shift fast because the whole episode is about fear and who we reveal ourselves to be once that fear is put in us.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthro...ers_let_it_be_fear_aka_why_the_bells_was_one/
 

Khalanad75

macrumors 6502a
Jul 8, 2015
543
1,881
land of confusion
I hated the red wedding so much that I almost stopped watching the show.. It still angers me that Robb and Catelyn were killed that way. The whole "avenge their fathers death" story line was cut short in the most asinine way. Absolute worst part of this show, it was lazy, shoddy writing.


The Red Wedding comes directly from the books. And that was done absolutely brilliantly in the show just as it was done in the books. It's a turning point in the whole long story. Up to that point, it looks like the North is making headway and getting the upper hand. That one event, blew all of that away.

And reading that happen when you have no clue it is coming, was a bigger WTF than even watching it.
 

th0masp

macrumors 6502a
Mar 16, 2015
848
514
Red Wedding was a major WTF moment indeed. I think I might have even said that aloud when watching it. ;) Not a very heroic way to go for our conquering Prince Charming and his bride-to-be, is it. That's GoT to me - subverting my expectations and delivering a genuine surprise once in a while.
 

yaxomoxay

macrumors 604
Mar 3, 2010
7,439
34,275
Texas
I enjoyed reading this:

A lot of people complain that the shifts in a lot of characters' arcs felt too sudden in this episode. They're not wrong. Because they also did for the characters themselves, as the entire episode is about who we all are, or what we reveal ourselves to be the moment fear takes control of us. It's sudden and dramatic by fear's very nature. The episode's title, "The Bells", even calls to attention the precise instant this happens for most of our key characters.

We see it in the war scene itself. It's not so much "one good side versus one bad side" as much as it is just one collective mass of people scared ******** fighting for their lives, and all it takes is one catalyst to bring that collective fear all the way to the forefront and, amidst pure chaos, for everyone to find out who they truly are.

Dany is that catalyst. As we know, she is already afraid. But once she hears the bells of surrender in King's Landing, that's the moment the fear fully takes hold of her. The throne, the one thing she's always wanted is now finally hers for the taking. The people of King's Landing do not love her, and she will not lose the product of her life's work the way she did everything else, so she does the only other thing she sees she can do: "Let it be fear". She torches the city.

So, motivated by fear, this is the very moment she puts the fear in everyone else. The walls break down completely. All masks come off. Everyone's true selves and desires rush to the forefront.

Grey Worm, feeling only wrath from the love taken from him, seizes this opportunity to massacre innocent surrendering forces.

Formerly surrendering forces fight for their lives. They want only to survive.

Some of the victorious forces of the North do the same, while others seize the opportunity to wreak savagery upon innocents. It's who they were all along, and we've taken their good will for granted.

We've all seen Jon Snow's face of realization: "This is wrong. This was wrong all along." From that point on, he can only make futile attempts to correct what can't be undone.

Knowing it's all over, Cersei's thoughts turn entirely to her unborn child. It's not about "who wins" the throne anymore. To her, the throne was merely her and her family's refuge, a refuge she held by committing countless evils in the name of protecting herself and those she loved. Now, all she knows is that she cannot let her unborn baby die, not here. She flees. She weeps for her child.

And even among all of this, the sound of the bells was only the moment the fear hit most of our characters. Others had fear take control of them slightly prior, but the bells served as the crossroads for those very fears nonetheless.

The moment fear took control of Jaime was one episode prior. By every observable metric, he was a changed man that had every intention of atoning for his past. But the moment Sansa told him that Cersei would be executed without him, that's when his fear took hold. He could not let the woman he'd loved his entire life, from the moment of their birth, die without him there. It was not a "reversal" or "squandering" of his character arc. He had indeed become a better man. But he was the only person to ever see that side of Cersei, and he was afraid to let it die. Even at the moment of he and Cersei's death, he tells her "it’s just us, that's all that matters". The fear made him realize that his memory of that love is all he would have been content with, and given familial love being the sole motivator for all of Cersei's sociopathy, it was literally his answer to her lifelong struggle.

Obviously, The Hound fears his brother. He knows this crossroads at King's Landing is his chance. He fears NOT getting revenge, and Arya thinks she shares this in common with him. So as a litmus test, he makes it as clear as he can to Arya: if you follow me down this path, you will die.

And despite all her talk, that is the moment the fear hits Arya. She doesn't want to die. She runs through the streets trying to escape, and in doing so finds that she doesn't want the people to die as well. Fear triggers her survival impulses, not just for herself, but for others as well. She's afraid to die. There's more she needs to do. There's more everyone needs to do.

And lastly, or firstly rather, seeing the crisis of "the bells" coming days in advance in true character fashion, Varys remains the person he's always been. He fears the wrong person being seated on the throne, one that leads by instilling this very fear in them at all, the fear that arises from fire and blood.

And that, my friends, is why this episode is brilliant. It is pure Game of Thrones. We're nothing but sacks of meat and blood, and some bone to keep it all standing. When life-or-death fear hits, we become our basest, most elemental selves, and no one is invulnerable.

TL;DR: Characters' arcs shift fast because the whole episode is about fear and who we reveal ourselves to be once that fear is put in us.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthro...ers_let_it_be_fear_aka_why_the_bells_was_one/

great article!
 
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sunapple

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Boy, that series finale has some explaining to do! :D

Lots of things related to short-cuts and pacing, as we've established. Some lack of logic like the attack of Dany on the Scorpions, the battle seemed dumbed down a lot.

I get where he's coming from (although I hate how he starts the video, the drama), but I think it's not entirely the right idea. Did really enjoy that bit that smallcoffee linked:

I enjoyed reading this:

A lot of people complain that the shifts in a lot of characters' arcs felt too sudden in this episode. They're not wrong. Because they also did for the characters themselves, as the entire episode is about who we all are, or what we reveal ourselves to be the moment fear takes control of us. It's sudden and dramatic by fear's very nature. The episode's title, "The Bells", even calls to attention the precise instant this happens for most of our key characters.

We see it in the war scene itself. It's not so much "one good side versus one bad side" as much as it is just one collective mass of people scared ******** fighting for their lives, and all it takes is one catalyst to bring that collective fear all the way to the forefront and, amidst pure chaos, for everyone to find out who they truly are.

Dany is that catalyst. As we know, she is already afraid. But once she hears the bells of surrender in King's Landing, that's the moment the fear fully takes hold of her. The throne, the one thing she's always wanted is now finally hers for the taking. The people of King's Landing do not love her, and she will not lose the product of her life's work the way she did everything else, so she does the only other thing she sees she can do: "Let it be fear". She torches the city.

So, motivated by fear, this is the very moment she puts the fear in everyone else. The walls break down completely. All masks come off. Everyone's true selves and desires rush to the forefront.

Grey Worm, feeling only wrath from the love taken from him, seizes this opportunity to massacre innocent surrendering forces.

Formerly surrendering forces fight for their lives. They want only to survive.

Some of the victorious forces of the North do the same, while others seize the opportunity to wreak savagery upon innocents. It's who they were all along, and we've taken their good will for granted.

We've all seen Jon Snow's face of realization: "This is wrong. This was wrong all along." From that point on, he can only make futile attempts to correct what can't be undone.

Knowing it's all over, Cersei's thoughts turn entirely to her unborn child. It's not about "who wins" the throne anymore. To her, the throne was merely her and her family's refuge, a refuge she held by committing countless evils in the name of protecting herself and those she loved. Now, all she knows is that she cannot let her unborn baby die, not here. She flees. She weeps for her child.

And even among all of this, the sound of the bells was only the moment the fear hit most of our characters. Others had fear take control of them slightly prior, but the bells served as the crossroads for those very fears nonetheless.

The moment fear took control of Jaime was one episode prior. By every observable metric, he was a changed man that had every intention of atoning for his past. But the moment Sansa told him that Cersei would be executed without him, that's when his fear took hold. He could not let the woman he'd loved his entire life, from the moment of their birth, die without him there. It was not a "reversal" or "squandering" of his character arc. He had indeed become a better man. But he was the only person to ever see that side of Cersei, and he was afraid to let it die. Even at the moment of he and Cersei's death, he tells her "it’s just us, that's all that matters". The fear made him realize that his memory of that love is all he would have been content with, and given familial love being the sole motivator for all of Cersei's sociopathy, it was literally his answer to her lifelong struggle.

Obviously, The Hound fears his brother. He knows this crossroads at King's Landing is his chance. He fears NOT getting revenge, and Arya thinks she shares this in common with him. So as a litmus test, he makes it as clear as he can to Arya: if you follow me down this path, you will die.

And despite all her talk, that is the moment the fear hits Arya. She doesn't want to die. She runs through the streets trying to escape, and in doing so finds that she doesn't want the people to die as well. Fear triggers her survival impulses, not just for herself, but for others as well. She's afraid to die. There's more she needs to do. There's more everyone needs to do.

And lastly, or firstly rather, seeing the crisis of "the bells" coming days in advance in true character fashion, Varys remains the person he's always been. He fears the wrong person being seated on the throne, one that leads by instilling this very fear in them at all, the fear that arises from fire and blood.

And that, my friends, is why this episode is brilliant. It is pure Game of Thrones. We're nothing but sacks of meat and blood, and some bone to keep it all standing. When life-or-death fear hits, we become our basest, most elemental selves, and no one is invulnerable.

TL;DR: Characters' arcs shift fast because the whole episode is about fear and who we reveal ourselves to be once that fear is put in us.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthro...ers_let_it_be_fear_aka_why_the_bells_was_one/
 

zmunkz

macrumors 6502a
Nov 4, 2007
921
229
@Obi Wan Kenobi I liked you post, very thoughtful analysis of each arc. Some thoughts:

Danerys
I was given a spoiler for 'The burning of Kings Landing' during the day, so it wasn't a complete shock. I didn't think it was inconsistent with her character's development either.

I’ve been trying to sort through my own frustration at her. It’s not that this was unexpected, per-say. Those of us in superfandom, I suppose you could call it, have speculated about the mad queen outcome for years. There were clues which pivoted towards heavy-handed near the end of last season. My feelings at the outset of those clues getting heavy was frustration as well. It was such a trope-y/simplistic way to force a resolution between two characters we love (Jon and Dany) competing for the same outcome. Compared to the other theories in circulation, it was the most bland an unexciting. Those other theories are dead in the water. Perhaps my frustration isn’t down to an arc betrayal, it’s down to what feels like many lost opportunities in favor of the obvious play. Not sure if thats a reasonable irritation or not, but I think that’s the source of it.

Jamie
Jamie going back to Cersei was entirely in keeping with his character, for me.

I disagree. It is entirely consistent with his character... before he started on his redemption arc. It was played up as if he’d finally seen her for what she was and finally found in himself something more. It’s fine that he failed... people do... but it makes the last season feel cheap. He was consistently Cersi’s sidekick for 6 years, then they pull this one-year, “look at him grow!” thing, just for the “twist” of letting him go back to square one. Fine, some arcs end in tragic subversion, but then, what was the point? Seems like the redemption side-show was the inconsistent part, and it was done for lazy writing reasons.

Tyrion
Tyrion was my favourite character for a long time. He's not done much this season, apart from stand around looking mournful and anguished. I thought his attempts to save his brother and sister were very him. It'll be interesting to see what happens next . Will Danerys execute her last 'friend' / ally (other than Grey Worm)? Will he temper her iron will? Will he go over to Jon?

Agreed, except that he also seems to have lost his signature insight into people and situations. Not sure what he is good for anymore.

'Clegana bowl'
Just brilliant.

YES!!!

Arya
I was surprised about her being deflected from her kill list by the Hound.

I was too, but the way the Hound held up a mirror to her and that is what changed her course worked for me. Now she can be more than an Instrument of revenge. She doesn’t need a list.



Season 8 had to deal with the Night King and White Walkers, and the Iron Throne. These required episodes of extended length to do them justice, and I think they've been done well.

I’m only half and half with you on this. Each episode, on its own, has been absolutely brilliant. It is some of the best cinematography and storytelling through character and vfx that I’ve ever seen. As the capstone to the series, however, not so much.

Perhaps I’ve fallen down the rabbit hole of fantasy-snobdom, but I’ve spent many years buried in fantasy and epic fantasy, both reading and writing. One of the things that defines the genre, not only on paper, but defines what had made it so popular and long-lasting, is the way it brings vast storytelling together in a climax that no other genre can possibly match. There is a reason we still have Jordancons, and we have Harry Potter theme parks, but there’s nothing like that for, say, Stephen King.

What’s really astonished me this season is the total lack of synergy with that genre-promise. It makes it very unlikely they’ll be able to stick the landing when they haven't woven these threads together, as they apparently haven’t. It could be a pacing issue, hard to say. But the blockiness / serial way in which they are resolving the final conflicts (NK/Cersei/Iron Throne) is unsatisfying. It’s failing to payoff on promises, to put it in writing terms.

I’m not sure if I made reference to this analogy before… Might have been another site… But just imagine if halfway through final Harry Potter volume, Luna Lovegood got a lucky shot off and killed Voldemort. And then the remaining half of the novel covered the final house cup, because Gryffindor was down on points, and after all the house cup was the first of the conflicts that our main characters cared about. It just wouldn’t sit. The climax wouldn’t pay, and the resolutions would feel wrong and unsatisfying. And it wouldn’t sit because all those detailed arcs failed to contribute in a resonating and self-amplifying way. That’s the reason epic fantasy brings the arcs together. It lets them each find a satisfactory ending in a way that unexpectedly solves the major arc of the series.

Killing the Night king in a regular-old action battle, and then having Danny go mad, and then having Dany and Jon duke it out, just doesn’t juggle the arcs very well. You might say that Game of Thrones is so Grimm dark that they don’t care about a satisfying ending. Of course, satisfying doesn’t have to mean happy, it just has to mean satisfying. But then, if you don’t go for a satisfying ending, you can’t expect the audience to be satisfied.
 

Huntn

macrumors Core
Original poster
May 5, 2008
23,972
27,054
The Misty Mountains
S 8, E 5

That was quite an episode! Whilst it was surprising that so many of the key characters survived the battle with the Night King, we saw a lot of satisfactory conclusions in this one. I'm going to focus on a few of the key characters.

Danerys
I was given a spoiler for 'The burning of Kings Landing' during the day, so it wasn't a complete shock. I didn't think it was inconsistent with her character's development either. She's gone from naive when first wedded to Khal Drogo, and idealistic when building herself up in Penthos, and she's had to become harsher along the way. This started with the crucifixions of the slave masters, and also in her march from her City State towards Westeros thereafter. She's become harder and more ruthless as the show has developed. Upon reaching Westeros, she's found it has not welcomed her at all. She won over Jon Snow, but he initially 'bended the knee' for pragmatic reasons - to defeat the White Walkers her army and dragons were going to be essential. The north welcomed her less than before. It looked to Jon Snow and Sansa Stark. Sansa is very much de facto 'Queen in the north', whether or not that's her title. Also along the way, and particularly through season 8 she has lost more and more of those close to her: Jorah at the Battle of Winterfell, and Missande after her capture by Euron (and right before her eyes, too). Then to top it all off, it turns out Jon has a better claim to the throne than she has, and then shortly before the battle, he rejected her. She eventually accepted she would not be loved in Westeros, and so it had to be fear.

Against that background, her actions are entirely understandable and consistent for her character.


Jon Snow
His character is that of the 'man who would be king' - greatness thrust on him, rather than sought by him. It's a cliche, but one that may yet be maintained. We're certainly left with 'Good King Jon' being seen to be a viable alternative to Danerys, and even preferred by Varys. Given the gritty realism of the rest of the characters, his melancholy, two-dimensional northerner stereotype is not that rewarding. We know that he is supposed to be a great leader, but we don't see much of why.

In this episode he has seen the Dark Side of Danerys, and it's clear he doesn't like what he sees. It's also not clear that he's seen war up close before. He seemed shocked that a conquering soldier in this era would go after a woman. An unnecessary naivety, I thought.

The exchange of looks between him and Grey Worm during the massacre looked interesting. Grey Worm will be loyal to Danerys to the end, no matter what she does. It looked to me that he either knows of Jon's 'treachery' by revealing his Targaryen parentage, or had been told by Danerys to keep an eye on him. If Jon hadn't used his sword to despatch an attacker, it looked like Grey Worm may have turned on him. I suspect we will see a final battle between them in the next episode.


Jamie
Jamie going back to Cersei was entirely in keeping with his character, for me. As Tyrion pointed out, he's always known what Cersei is like, but he's loved her anyway. Brienne wasn't his redemption, he was always more honourable than his enemies wished to portray. He got his nickname 'Kingslayer' / 'oathbreaker', for killing the last Mad King, but it's often forgotten why he did it. It's in the books and mentioned in series 1 - the Mad King had Lord Stark (Ned's father) tortured to death over a triviality. Jamie thought Lord Stark was a good man, and for him it was the final straw. His actions had significant consequences for Westeros, and he received much vitriol because of it. He accepted that, if not gave in to it, even played up to his nickname somewhat. His relationship with Brienne, to me was about him seeing someone maintained her honourable standards no matter what others did or said. This led him back to accepting that's who he really was, and he clearly loved her for it. But Cersei was the love of his life, and when it came down to it, he had to go to her, to try and save her.

I liked his final fight with Euron. Euron, to me, is the dishonourable wretch Jamie was portrayed to be. I didn't like that Euron managed to mortally wound him twice, and yet Jamie could stilll get up, fight back and go and find Cersei, that was a bit match, but I liked the end to their story arcs.


Cersei
I'm not sure she's really dead. Arya may yet get her wish. It's too easy a death for her, for this show.


Tyrion
Tyrion was my favourite character for a long time. He's not done much this season, apart from stand around looking mournful and anguished. I thought his attempts to save his brother and sister were very him. It'll be interesting to see what happens next . Will Danerys execute her last 'friend' / ally (other than Grey Worm)? Will he temper her iron will? Will he go over to Jon?


'Clegana bowl'
Just brilliant.


Arya
I was surprised about her being deflected from her kill list by the Hound. She clearly didn't like what Danerys did to Kings Landing. Will Danerys's name be added to her list? So far, it's only people that have hurt her or her family. I'm not sure Cersei's definitely gone, it may be that she gets to finish her off after all. If Cersei did die, will that ameliorate things for Arya. I thought the white horse at the end was a bit much, although I like the 'Bran warg-ed' it to her fan theory.


Question for the group - Ghost
In the novel Jon's Direwolf was killed by Aliser and the Black Watch before they killed Jon. All of a sudden in Series 8, we're seeing a white Direwolf again, although it hasn't been called by name, so far as I recall. I haven't re-watched GoT for season 8, can someone confirm whether he's supposed to be alive or not? If so, where has he been for the last 3 seasons? I wonder whether he will reappear in the finale? Perhaps saving Jon from Grey Worm?


Speculation for the Finale
Jon ends up opposing Danerys. There is a final confrontation. Jon calls the Wildlings back to help him. There is a final battle / confrontation. Either Jon ends up on the Iron Throne, or somehow Jon and Danerys dies and Gendry or Sansa does.



Responding to other's thoughts on Series 8
I think it's important to remember that the medium of TV doesn't allow as much character development as a book, and that with so many key characters (by the end of Season 7,) there couldn't be interesting developments for all of them and still have the main story arcs resolved. Season 8 had to deal with the Night King and White Walkers, and the Iron Throne. These required episodes of extended length to do them justice, and I think they've been done well.

I also don't think the show's been badly written, as compared to the books. It's been adapted for a different medium, and in many ways I think the TV show has been better than the books. There is an awful lot of digression from the main story in the books. When you get to Tyrion's execution of his father in the book, it's an exciting climax to the novel, and you want to know more of what's happening with Tyrion. However, the first 400 pages of the next book don't mention him at all. Instead they introduce Davos and his story. Deeply frustrating.
I agree with just about everything you said, while acknowledging repeatedly we are getting the condensed version in the series, and that is the reality. But, I’ll add things have gone pretty well till this season, when they had just too much stuff to cover, and some of their choices of what to show are subject to vigorous debate. :)

I was surprised Danaerys decided to knock the Red Kwwp down instead of reclaiming it. She must of been mad. ;) In the forum poll, I voted for Gendry. :D
 

ritmomundo

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This episode benefits from a second viewing. The little plot details that bothered me the first time around didn’t as much on rewatch (probably because I had already accepted it for what it is). Overall, minor quips aside, it’s truly a stunning episode.

I was surprised I missed that Varys was trying to poison Dany at the beginning. And I wonder who all he sent the letters to.
 

Obi Wan Kenobi

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Mar 9, 2011
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I liked you post, very thoughtful analysis of each arc.

I"m glad you liked it.

I like GoT, but I'm not a superfan, so you may well know the series better than me. Can you assist with my Ghost query?


Re Jamie
I disagree. It is entirely consistent with his character... before he started on his redemption arc. It was played up as if he’d finally seen her for what she was and finally found in himself something more. It’s fine that he failed... people do... but it makes the last season feel cheap. He was consistently Cersi’s sidekick for 6 years, then they pull this one-year, “look at him grow!” thing, just for the “twist” of letting him go back to square one. Fine, some arcs end in tragic subversion, but then, what was the point? Seems like the redemption side-show was the inconsistent part, and it was done for lazy writing reasons.
Tyrion's words to Jamie in the previous episode ring true to me - that he'd always known what Cersei was like, but loved her anyway. Thinking back on the last two series, I don't remember at any stage him changing his view of Cersei. He's been trying to 'do the right thing' since his time with Brienne, but I don't remember him being critical of Cersei at any point. I don't remember him showing any disgust, revulsion or even disapproval of anything she did.

I don't think his return to Cersei makes the last series cheap. But this is clearly a point where views can differ.


Re Tyrion
Agreed, except that he also seems to have lost his signature insight into people and situations. Not sure what he is good for anymore.
In the earlier series / books, Tyrion's insight has revealed to us the machinations of others. He's usually been in a position without power, or under threat (even when he was The Hand at King's Landing, he was still under threat from Cersei). He hasn't been in that situation for a while now. Nor are the machinations of others much of a plot point any more. So far, the battle lines have been drawn and the sides clear.

It maybe that he has more to do / say in the last episode. I certainly hope so.


What’s really astonished me this season is the total lack of synergy with that genre-promise. It makes it very unlikely they’ll be able to stick the landing when they haven't woven these threads together, as they apparently haven’t. It could be a pacing issue, hard to say. But the blockiness / serial way in which they are resolving the final conflicts (NK/Cersei/Iron Throne) is unsatisfying. It’s failing to payoff on promises, to put it in writing terms.

I’m not sure if I made reference to this analogy before… Might have been another site… But just imagine if halfway through final Harry Potter volume, Luna Lovegood got a lucky shot off and killed Voldemort. And then the remaining half of the novel covered the final house cup, because Gryffindor was down on points, and after all the house cup was the first of the conflicts that our main characters cared about. It just wouldn’t sit. The climax wouldn’t pay, and the resolutions would feel wrong and unsatisfying. And it wouldn’t sit because all those detailed arcs failed to contribute in a resonating and self-amplifying way. That’s the reason epic fantasy brings the arcs together. It lets them each find a satisfactory ending in a way that unexpectedly solves the major arc of the series.

Killing the Night king in a regular-old action battle, and then having Danny go mad, and then having Dany and Jon duke it out, just doesn’t juggle the arcs very well. You might say that Game of Thrones is so Grimm dark that they don’t care about a satisfying ending. Of course, satisfying doesn’t have to mean happy, it just has to mean satisfying. But then, if you don’t go for a satisfying ending, you can’t expect the audience to be satisfied.

I know what you mean. The conflict with the White Walkers was the one for survival of everyone, whereas the contest for King's Landing is just about a power struggle. I suppose we must reflect that the TV show is called 'Game of Thrones'.

By contrast, the books were 'A song of Fire and Ice' - which at the start of Series 8 led me to think the final confrontation would be between Danerys (fire) and the Night King (ice). If I recall correctly, the opening scene in the opening episode of Series 1 involved a White Walker killing someone. It would have been a fantastic arc if the final battle had been the one that wiped out the White Walkers and Night King.
 

th0masp

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Mar 16, 2015
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Agreed about the pacing/thematic issues. It looks like mankind's eternal struggle was just a little zombie outbreak after all, easily contained - and never to be mentioned again. And Bran just the antisocial nerd in a wheelchair.

Just wondering: has it been mentioned anywhere how many years supposedly have passed in the story between S1-S8?
 

BlankStar

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Aug 13, 2004
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There are still some things I don't get. One of them being;

We've been watching Brans journey from little crippled kid to the three-eyed raven all these seasons, and I'm still wondering why. The whole trip beyond the wall, Hodor, the boy and girl (forgot the names) that travelled with him and died for him... He's the knowledge of mankind, the history, the future. Yet as useless as can be...
 

Krayzkat

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Apr 22, 2011
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Part of me just wants to leave the final episode and never watch it, in some sort of solo protest to myself at how bad GOT has now become
 
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Falhófnir

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Like I said above, the last seasons were rushed. The only way for this season to have been completely satisfying would have been if it were longer, not have a completely different story.

Even though GRRM hasn't finished the story yet and though I haven't seen evidence of it; I believe he told D&D about things like who ends up where (main characters) and that Dany would eventually snap which now seems to be the end of her mission to get to the throne.

I'm excited to see what the final episode will bring. I'm already sure they cannot possible wrap this up perfectly in 80 minutes, so by lowering my expectations it should be fine.
I have to disagree that the only issue is pacing. They've prioritised spectacle and unexpected twists over more mundane but ultimately more valuable plot and characterisation. Any old high budget film could match this on pyrotechnics and CGI and visuals, what made earlier parts of GoT special was the extra attention given to making sure the plot followed logically from character decisions, and giving the characters believable personalities and reactions, and combining this leading to them making natural seeming decisions to drive the plot forward, not the other way around.

Ultimately my beef is that Dany 'went mad' because they wanted a 'shocking' moment to end on. There's a million ways they could have come up with some sort of satisfying ending, but they didn't because they prioritised spectacle over decent writing and characterisation. I have little faith that even given a whole 10 episode season to do it in post Night King that they could have pulled it off effectively, unless they waited for Martin to do the hard work for them. But speaking of Martin, Dany in the books is not as staid as she is portrayed in the series either. She's a lot more compassionate - she goes out to help plague victims outside the city walls even though she's advised not to, and she is disappointed she doesn't have more help to give, so maybe I can hope this is another TV only simplification and he might actually craft an ending for her which is satisfying.

Agreed about the pacing/thematic issues. It looks like mankind's eternal struggle was just a little zombie outbreak after all, easily contained - and never to be mentioned again. And Bran just the antisocial nerd in a wheelchair.

Just wondering: has it been mentioned anywhere how many years supposedly have passed in the story between S1-S8?
In the books at least, we're given a date system: 'years AC' - which is years after Aegon's conquest which is taken as the start of the current era. GoT starts in 298AC and Joffrey's wedding is the first day of 300AC. I'm not aware of any specific dates given after this, I assume it's probably been a good 6-12 months since then (AFFC and ADWD run largely congruously) so ~3 years up to the end of ADWD. As the show condenses and simplifies a lot it's difficult to say whether this works for it too.
 
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sunapple

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Jul 16, 2013
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I have to disagree that the only issue is pacing.

Almost every issue then, I know there's more.

They've prioritised spectacle and unexpected twists over more mundane but ultimately more valuable plot and characterisation. Any old high budget film could match this on pyrotechnics and CGI and visuals, what made earlier parts of GoT special was the extra attention given to making sure the plot followed logically from character decisions, and giving the characters believable personalities and reactions, and combining this leading to them making natural seeming decisions to drive the plot forward, not the other way around.

Which makes total sense given the fact that they had little time to tell the story. Important plot and storytelling was dumbed down and simplified or even left out. Put season 8 in season 1-6 sort of pacing and you'll get 20 episodes over two seasons, including all characterization and what not that's missing right now.

Ultimately my beef is that Dany 'went mad' because they wanted a 'shocking' moment to end on. There's a million ways they could have come up with some sort of satisfying ending, but they didn't because they prioritised spectacle over decent writing and characterisation.

We'll have to wait on the books and even the final episode, but I don't agree here. Given more time, the 'snap' could have made much more sense. That's why I'm putting this with the pacing problems.

I have little faith that even given a whole 10 episode season to do it in post Night King that they could have pulled it off effectively, unless they waited for Martin to do the hard work for them. But speaking of Martin, Dany in the books is not as staid as she is portrayed in the series either. She's a lot more compassionate - she goes out to help plague victims outside the city walls even though she's advised not to, and she is disappointed she doesn't have more help to give, so maybe I can hope this is another TV only simplification and he might actually craft an ending for her which is satisfying.

Running out of source material for season 7 and 8 is of course the biggest issue by far, D&D are not capable of writing to the same level as GRRM does, let alone finishing a story he hasn't even worked out yet because it's so complicated.

From what I've read and know, I don't believe Dany was ever meant to sit on the Iron Throne (because someone else is). Whether that's accomplished through snapping or simply being killed or both, we'll have to find out. Final episode hasn't aired yet, so I can't really add much more to this.
 

AlliFlowers

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Jan 1, 2011
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I hated the red wedding so much that I almost stopped watching the show.. It still angers me that Robb and Catelyn were killed that way. The whole "avenge their fathers death" story line was cut short in the most asinine way. Absolute worst part of this show, it was lazy, shoddy writing.

Another bit that was SO MUCH better in the books. Not to mention the fact that Catlyn wasn't actually killed. Not shoddy writing, and perhaps THE pivotal point of the plot.

Yes the book Varys is more complicated. He sends assassins to kill Danny and says all he does is for the good of the Realm. He doesn’t ever really make his intentions clear but he’s always plotting and scheming behind the scenes. Then in A dance with dragons he goes missing from king’s landing for several months. Then he returns sneaking in through all the back passages and Murders Grand Maester Pycelle and Kevan Lannister. It’s then that he declares his support for Aegon (Rhaegar’s son, not Jon). It’s revealed that he got him out of Westeros for his safety as a baby and has been protecting him from a far until the time he can come back to reclaim his throne.

Varys was definitely a far more complicated character in the books. I came to really like him there, while he was never truly a main character in the show. I hated that she killed him. I'd hoped he and Tyrion could continue working together.
 

zmunkz

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Random thought, but does Bronn still have any role? His threat/tasks is moot now that Cersei is gone and only Tyrion lives of the brothers. I hope that whole little thread wasn’t just for one scene of tension.
 
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