GOODBYE, APPLE.

[mijail]

Naming Windows an "Pit of Despair" is narrow minded. Hail MacOS and the rest is garbage.

It's a pity that you missed that point where I wrote

Note again: I'm not really defending Apple. What I'm saying is that Windows is not a solution, for any value of "solution". Consider Linux and then we might talk.​

Not my cup of thee. I see my computer as an tool. The OS on it is just a part of the puzzle.

No, the OS is the base where you build your puzzle. It's the foundation of everything you do in your computer - which, in my case, is where I spend the greater part of my waking hours.

...
I haven't found a single reason to stay with Apple so far. I was afraid about Windows. Simply because reading those "Pit of Despair" comments on these forums where Apple is the holy grail and the rest sucks.

It's not that Apple is so good. It's just that the rest are SO UNASHAMEDLY BAD. As in, if it was people in my company doing something like Explorer with windows that only update half-way, we would tell him "WTF, man? Go finish that ****".

If we did Windows and someone from high pushed to put some uninstallable spam in, I'd start sending CVs.

I already said it: this kind of thing could be understood in Linux, because who knows who did what, right? Or in crapware-laden computers, as when you got your HP or Toshiba or Lenovo or Samsung and the first step was to uninstall as much as possible.

But we're talking about the OS creator here. The crapware is now a feature while basic GUI is broken - and according to Microsoft forums, has been since Windows 7 at least??

I shudder to think how must a just-bought Windows laptop look like now. Linux is now THE sane option.

And what is the saddest part? That I have been saying that "Apple is just the least sucky" since the 90's. And it stays true.

Interesting too see that many in my graphic sector are switching too or are all-ready switched. They are done with the way Apple is treating us.

To me it's interesting that you see Apple mistreating you but you are willing to stand Microsoft. Yeah, good luck.

 

[Roykor]

With W10, i am free to go with hardware specs. I stop waiting for an serious Mac update.

U can trash MS, i am fine with it. Its okay. I am not impressed anymore on this forum about that. Culture. But for anyone out there who is still on the edge with the waiting game, walking around with his soul under his arms, there is more than MacOS / Apple computers. I made the move after many many years with Apple, and I am very happy with my choice.

My negative feeling with Apple computers comes with their cold and client unfriendly way of working with there userbase. Zero information is shared about the Mac Pro for years. Nobody knows a thing. We are talking about people who have spend easy 8.000 on a rigg, want to upgrade but dont hear a thing. Its annoying me big time. The iphones, ipads, watches and other consumer stuff is all over the place. They simply moved to that core business. If they drop the Mac Pro line, i wont eve would be surprised.

ps:
Adobe CC doenst support Linux. My Wacom Cintiq screen doenst have Linux drivers, So end of Linux story for me.

 

[ssgbryan]

Note again: I'm not really defending Apple. What I'm saying is that Windows is not a solution, for any value of "solution". Consider Linux and then we might talk.

I'd have to disagree with that - Windows is a solution for a lot of folks.

I'll talk linux when all of my software actually runs on it as a native applications.

 

[ITguy2016]

I'd have to disagree with that - Windows is a solution for a lot of folks.

I'll talk linux when all of my software actually runs on it as a native applications.

It's too bad more software developers haven't adopted Linux as a platform. It's a great OS. We're fortunate to be able to choose between macOS, Windows, and Linux.

 

[AidenShaw]

It's too bad more software developers haven't adopted Linux as a platform. It's a great OS. We're fortunate to be able to choose between macOS, Windows, and Linux.

Which Linux ? (Seriously, that is a big part of the problem.)

The other big problems are:

• Linux has few opaque APIs for kernel code
• Every new release comes with lots of "improvements" the break existing code, APIs and scripts

 

[Cape Dave]

With W10, i am free to go with hardware specs. I stop waiting for an serious Mac update.

U can trash MS, i am fine with it. Its okay. I am not impressed anymore on this forum about that. Culture. But for anyone out there who is still on the edge with the waiting game, walking around with his soul under his arms, there is more than MacOS / Apple computers. I made the move after many many years with Apple, and I am very happy with my choice.

My negative feeling with Apple computers comes with their cold and client unfriendly way of working with there userbase. Zero information is shared about the Mac Pro for years. Nobody knows a thing. We are talking about people who have spend easy 8.000 on a rigg, want to upgrade but dont hear a thing. Its annoying me big time. The iphones, ipads, watches and other consumer stuff is all over the place. They simply moved to that core business. If they drop the Mac Pro line, i wont eve would be surprised.

ps:
Adobe CC doenst support Linux. My Wacom Cintiq screen doenst have Linux drivers, So end of Linux story for me.

So true. Bad enough they do not update but so much worse they do not respect their biggest spenders enough to even give a CLUE about what may or may not be coming. THAT is the biggest problem of all, and Mr. Cook better get that sooner than later.

 

[Chancha]

Adobe CC users are in urgent need of nVidia GPU on a modern Mac due to CUDA support. Lightroom CC on the iMac 5K 2015 even even struggles to display a high res photo in develop mode full screen due to the number of pixels present. The fact is every Mac in the current line up, including the 3 year old Mac Pro they all strive for a smaller form factor than sheer performance, which greatly limits what kind of components can fit inside the enclosure. For a MBP, thinness may be desirable but I struggle to accept the logic for iMac and even more so for a Mac Pro. The i7 6700 on the top end BTO iMac 5K is reported to throttle after a certain temperature...

Desktop Kabylake is supposed to come in 2017 Q1, if by that time we don't see a refreshed and rethought line up of desktop Mac, we can safely assume we are forgotten and should just move on.

 

[mijail]

The other big problems are:

• Linux has few opaque APIs for kernel code

"Opaque"... meaning what, exactly? And "few" as in "too little" or "too many"? I don't see what you could mean if this is about comparing to Windows.

• Every new release comes with lots of "improvements" the break existing code, APIs and scripts

Again... what?
APIs - I could see how they could break if you are in the kernel ("You think you want a stable kernel interface, but you really do not, and you don't even know it."). But for *all* the rest you have standards, both proper and de facto.
Scripts - what are you talking about? You can still use sh scripts from 30, 40? years ago. And "code" - how can it "break" with "new releases"? ... are you just throwing things to see what sticks?

By my side, I'm having to sweat my way through this Microsoft growth called PowerShell. It's theoretically forward- and backward-compatible. But at the end of the day, "the only way out of the box to ensure backwards compatibility is to actually write on that version — unfortunately, that is the answer." - as said by "Microsoft Scripting Guy" in his blog in technet.microsoft.com. Please tell me how does that compare to bash or even intercompatibility with even earlier shells, given POSIX.

(Not that anyone should be writing bash scripts in 2016 - and yet, Microsoft has this absurd, unholy mix of bash and .NET called PowerShell...)

 

[2ilent8cho]

http://www.apple.com/feedback/ , not happy with 3 year old Mac Pro?, tell them! Think the new Macbook Pro aint up to Pro, tell them! use that form and tell Apple. The 2010 Macbook Air had its great backlit keyboard removed. In 2011 it came back due to feedback. Craig Federighi said on stage before they do listen to feedback and joked at how much they get.

Just need enough people to fill in the feedback forms and make a wave.

 

[ITguy2016]

http://www.apple.com/feedback/ , not happy with 3 year old Mac Pro?, tell them! Think the new Macbook Pro aint up to Pro, tell them! use that form and tell Apple. The 2010 Macbook Air had its great backlit keyboard removed. In 2011 it came back due to feedback. Craig Federighi said on stage before they do listen to feedback and joked at how much they get.

Just need enough people to fill in the feedback forms and make a wave.

Apple would have to be completely deaf if they're unaware people are unhappy with their current desktop product line. It's not as if the concerns are limited to the Mac Rumors forums. They've been voiced by just about anyone who uses their Macintosh products.

 

[F1Mac]

Apple would have to be completely deaf if they're unaware people are unhappy with their current desktop product line. It's not as if the concerns are limited to the Mac Rumors forums. They've been voiced by just about anyone who uses their Macintosh products.

"stay tuned".

 

[AidenShaw]

"Opaque"... meaning what, exactly? And "few" as in "too little" or "too many"? I don't see what you could mean if this is about comparing to Windows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opaque_data_type

Opaque data and APIs hide the implementation from the user.

Windows has many opaque APIs, usually involving a "handle" to some system object. You make changes by calling functions, passing the handle. You don't know what the handle is, and the underlying implementation can change radically without affecting even kernel code. My Win10 system has a RAID controller driver that was built on 2007-12-26 20:36, and another RAID driver from 2012-06-06 00:30. Because the IO APIs are opaque, they just keep on working.

The C/C++ object *FILE is another opaque object. You don't know what a *FILE is, but there are a number of functions that can operate on a *FILE.

On Linux, you need to recompile drivers against the kernel include files. Nightmare.

Scripts - what are you talking about? You can still use sh scripts from 30, 40? years ago.

When the steaming pile called "NetworkManager" was dropped into the Linux system, any script that setup networking parameters no longer worked.

And "code" - how can it "break" with "new releases"? ... are you just throwing things to see what sticks?

Sorry, but that API was deprecated two releases ago, and removed from the current release.

 

[lcseds]

Very often when someone is discussing Windows, they will use the term "clunky". Would someone like to tell me what is meant by that?

Windows is different, and if you haven't taken the time to acclimate yourself, it will not be the same experience of an OS you have been using for years. Cuts both ways too. In MacOS I click the red dot, the window closes but the app doesn't. That is odd. But these little things are overcome with a period of use. The strong point for Windows is it is adaptable to a plethora of hardware. Tweaks amy be needed, but there is choice. MacOS is solid because it works with very little hardware. I would expect that.

I have used Apple for many years, along with Windows at work. I am familiar with both and lean toward MacOS. However, since hardware is falling so far behind in Appleland, I am moving on. I just took delivery of a new Dell XPS Limited Edition desktop and it is a fine piece of equipment. I know it will take more hand holding than a Mac out of the box, but with all of the hardware choices available to me, I'm willing to invest the time. Even though Apples "just works" campaign is long over, it still applies today. It just works because it's been the same hardware for three years.

My 2013 rMBP 15" still rules my portable desires.

 

[aaronhead14]

Very often when someone is discussing Windows, they will use the term "clunky". Would someone like to tell me what is meant by that?

Windows is different, and if you haven't taken the time to acclimate yourself, it will not be the same experience of an OS you have been using for years. Cuts both ways too. In MacOS I click the red dot, the window closes but the app doesn't. That is odd. But these little things are overcome with a period of use. The strong point for Windows is it is adaptable to a plethora of hardware. Tweaks amy be needed, but there is choice. MacOS is solid because it works with very little hardware. I would expect that.

I have used Apple for many years, along with Windows at work. I am familiar with both and lean toward MacOS. However, since hardware is falling so far behind in Appleland, I am moving on. I just took delivery of a new Dell XPS Limited Edition desktop and it is a fine piece of equipment. I know it will take more hand holding than a Mac out of the box, but with all of the hardware choices available to me, I'm willing to invest the time. Even though Apples "just works" campaign is long over, it still applies today. It just works because it's been the same hardware for three years.

My 2013 rMBP 15" still rules my portable desires.

Windows isn't all that bad. My main issues with Win 10 though are: multiple settings scattered in different places for no logical reason, inconsistent scrolling between different apps (Explorer vs. Chrome vs. Edge, etc.), ugly UI that looks like it was made in MS Paint, and horrible stock wallpapers (this one's fixable though, by bringing in your own wallapapers). But yeah, Windows is very much "usable," and totally a viable alternative.

The only MAJOR dealbreaker (ignoring all the little annoyances I mentioned above) is the lack of ProRes encoding. ProRes encoding is a MUST for any pro videomaker, but it's only possible on macOS.

 

[Christian Schumacher]

http://www.assimilatesupport.com/akb/KnowledgebaseArticle50778.aspx

APPLE PRORES ENCODER
To render ProRes on both OSX as well as Windows

ProRes encoding is a MUST for any pro videomaker, but it's only possible on macOS

 

[ITguy2016]

Windows isn't all that bad. My main issues with Win 10 though are: multiple settings scattered in different places for no logical reason, inconsistent scrolling between different apps (Explorer vs. Chrome vs. Edge, etc.), ugly UI that looks like it was made in MS Paint, and horrible stock wallpapers (this one's fixable though, by bringing in your own wallapapers). But yeah, Windows is very much "usable," and totally a viable alternative.

The only MAJOR dealbreaker (ignoring all the little annoyances I mentioned above) is the lack of ProRes encoding. ProRes encoding is a MUST for any pro videomaker, but it's only possible on macOS.

Keep in mind Windows is transitioning from one UI to a different UI and therefore the settings exist in different places (primarily two: Control Panel and Settings). Microsoft did a lot of cleanup in this area with the Anniversary release of Windows 10. This is similar to what Apple did when they were transitioning between various interface designs in the early years of OS X.

Regarding the inconsistent scrolling can you expand upon what you mean? I just checked my Windows 10 system and Edge, IE, and Chrome all look and scroll identically to one another. Is there something else to scrolling that I'm not testing?

UI...I happen to like the UI of Windows 10. Since this is a subjective topic it can't really be a failing / strength of one OS over another.

 

[pat500000]

http://www.apple.com/feedback/ , not happy with 3 year old Mac Pro?, tell them! Think the new Macbook Pro aint up to Pro, tell them! use that form and tell Apple. The 2010 Macbook Air had its great backlit keyboard removed. In 2011 it came back due to feedback. Craig Federighi said on stage before they do listen to feedback and joked at how much they get.

Just need enough people to fill in the feedback forms and make a wave.

Yeahhhh...I don't think those people reading feedbacks know how to navigate to Mac Pro section.

 

[mijail]

(... about opaque data structures...)

I thought you might mean "opaque" as in "obtuse".

My Win10 system has a RAID controller driver that was built on 2007-12-26 20:36, and another RAID driver from 2012-06-06 00:30. Because the IO APIs are opaque, they just keep on working.
...
On Linux, you need to recompile drivers against the kernel include files. Nightmare.

So what you are saying is that you prefer your non-updated 9-year-old driver to a freshly recompiled driver for your exact kernel version.

On one hand, I can see the pseudo-convenience of having that old driver.

On the other, it sounds simply scary to me. That company hasn't cared to update the driver at all? There were no improvements in the Windows kernel in these 9 years that could have been used by an updated driver? No performance, no security improvements in the way the driver works?

Sounds to me like a ****** situation, and that you are lucky that Windows is still accepting that old driver, because the moment it asks for a new one, the company who made that driver might not care to update it either. And you are painting your tenuous luck as an advantage.

Now, what happens with a Linux driver? As explained in the Kernel doc I already linked to, if the driver is in the kernel it is just kept up-to-date, without you having to care at all. If it isn't in the kernel, well, at least you have the chance that someone will keep it updated.

Want to share the name of those RAID controllers? I am curious to see what is their support status in Linux.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opaque_data_type
The C/C++ object *FILE is another opaque object. You don't know what a *FILE is, but there are a number of functions that can operate on a *FILE.

I'm not sure I get your point. Can you name something concrete in Linux that you would want to be opaque?

Let's remember that C doesn't really have the concept of opaque data types - don't mix it with C++. You can do it in a primitive way, which can be useful when for example you are across userland and kernel, or implementing libraries. But in the kernel, where 1) you care about performance, 2) they purposefully don't care for Kernel ABI or API compatibility, 3) it's all open source anyway (so no "hiding"), and 4) there is heavy review before anything goes in, ... I am not sure I see opaque ADTs mattering much.

As I see it, there's a pig (the C language), who purposefully is dressed sport (the Kernel development policies), and you now want to apply lipstick in the shape of ADTs.

Now, I am not saying that I personally like the whole situation (starting by C), but at least it all is self-consistent and has been working well.

Would forcing encapsulation everywhere make things better? Maybe. Or maybe it is more academic/theoretical than practical results. Same as microkernel vs monolithic kernel perhaps?

 

[AidenShaw]

So what you are saying is that you prefer your non-updated 9-year-old driver to a freshly recompiled driver for your exact kernel version.

On one hand, I can see the pseudo-convenience of having that old driver.

What's the point of recompiling using 9 year old source, vs. using a 9 year old driver?

There were no improvements in the Windows kernel in these 9 years that could have been used by an updated driver? No performance, no security improvements in the way the driver works?

Those improvements occurred, and they're opaque to the driver. You don't need to recompile to get the improvements.

Here are the Ubuntu instructions for the RR62x controller - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RocketRaid .

By the fifth or sixth screen it should be obvious why many software applications have never been ported to Linux.

 

[aaronhead14]

Regarding the inconsistent scrolling can you expand upon what you mean? I just checked my Windows 10 system and Edge, IE, and Chrome all look and scroll identically to one another. Is there something else to scrolling that I'm not testing?

Are you sure?? Maybe you're just not noticing it, because I've experienced this issue with ALL of my Win 10 computers. Let me explain a bit more in-depth: It's how the scrolling FEELS that's inconsistent, not how it looks. Edge has silky smooth scrolling, very similar to macOS. Chrome's is okay, but it's not as smooth. The right side of Explorer (not IE) is really jaggedy when you scroll, and the left side of Explorer is really SLOW (& kind of jaggedy too). The inconsistency is INCREDIBLY annoying. If all the scrolling just felt like Edge's, I'd be super happy. Edge's scrolling is fantastic. (Maybe because it's designed for touch input?)

 

[ITguy2016]

Are you sure?? Maybe you're just not noticing it, because I've experienced this issue with ALL of my Win 10 computers. Let me explain a bit more in-depth: It's how the scrolling FEELS that's inconsistent, not how it looks. Edge has silky smooth scrolling, very similar to macOS. Chrome's is okay, but it's not as smooth. The right side of Explorer (not IE) is really jaggedy when you scroll, and the left side of Explorer is really SLOW (& kind of jaggedy too). The inconsistency is INCREDIBLY annoying. If all the scrolling just felt like Edge's, I'd be super happy. Edge's scrolling is fantastic. (Maybe because it's designed for touch input?)

I'm sure. I see no discernable difference in scrolling between the three (or FireFox for that matter). All three scroll smoothly, quickly, and with no visible issues. Perhaps you have a specific web site which is giving you issues that I can test?

 

[iMcLovin]

Windows isn't all that bad. My main issues with Win 10 though are: multiple settings scattered in different places for no logical reason, inconsistent scrolling between different apps (Explorer vs. Chrome vs. Edge, etc.), ugly UI that looks like it was made in MS Paint, and horrible stock wallpapers (this one's fixable though, by bringing in your own wallapapers). But yeah, Windows is very much "usable," and totally a viable alternative.

The only MAJOR dealbreaker (ignoring all the little annoyances I mentioned above) is the lack of ProRes encoding. ProRes encoding is a MUST for any pro videomaker, but it's only possible on macOS.

There are multiple ways you can encode ProRes on Windows...as I and others have said earlier. This is not a showstopper. You have separate programs as well as codecs that render Prores for you so that you can get it straight into After Effects and Premiere. You know what, before you make your dealbreakers, search Google for it, you will be surprised!

Anyone today clinging to Apple and has excuses that they can't use Win 10 because of the UI, settings, Prores or whatever - I feel sorry for you. You are then locked into a system without any support or updates and letting one company dictate what and how limited your work machine should be - and that even comes with a ridiculous cost. Personally I feel a breeze of liberation after switching to my new PC, knowing I can upgrade any component whenever I want to make sure my machine performs exactly how I like it to, I can choose what kind of i/o connections I have (so not only TB3 + dongles), and so on....
From my perspective theres ONLY FCPX that you cant use on windows. But apart from that theres a pluthera of programs and new possibilities you open up with Win10. Except for the endless nagging on this website about Mac OS looking so much better and easier to use (which of course is something any inexperienced windows user would say - the same way Windows users feel about Mac OS) I have not seen a single argument as to why anyone cant use windows and finally be able to get the hardware and performance they need/want.


Give me a list of problems, and Ill give you a reason you are wrong.

Scrolling, just buy a MX master or any other High quality Logitech mouse. They are lightyears ahead of APples mouse experiences anyway. And then you will automaticle get Smooth Scrolling installed on your machine and all Apps has same smooth scrolling.

Settings. What are you talking about ? Just use the Metro Settings (click the windows button and then the cogwheel) for simple UI and notification settings and enter "control panel" for more advanced settings (right click the win button and select control panel) thats it!

Wallpapers, seriously man ! Are you joking. Well, if the Apple wallpapers are so great why not just download them to your windows computer and save yourself the +3K$ Apple Tax apple is charging for the mac pro.

 

[aaronhead14]

There are multiple ways you can encode ProRes on Windows. This is not a showstopper. You have separate programs as well as codecs that render Prores for you so that you can get it straight into After Effects and Premiere.

No, there aren't. The only legit way is with Scratch, which is NOT worth the money. And it CANNOT allow you to render from AE or Premiere. Any other method (such as ffmpeg) isn't legitimate. It's an unlicensed, unverified, and outright flawed way to implement ProRes. Nothing you export will pass any sort of QC if you use such a method. Now, please don't speak authoritatively on subjects that you don't know anything about.

 

[mijail]

Are you sure?? Maybe you're just not noticing it, because I've experienced this issue with ALL of my Win 10 computers. Let me explain a bit more in-depth: It's how the scrolling FEELS that's inconsistent, not how it looks. Edge has silky smooth scrolling, very similar to macOS. Chrome's is okay, but it's not as smooth. The right side of Explorer (not IE) is really jaggedy when you scroll, and the left side of Explorer is really SLOW (& kind of jaggedy too). The inconsistency is INCREDIBLY annoying. If all the scrolling just felt like Edge's, I'd be super happy. Edge's scrolling is fantastic. (Maybe because it's designed for touch input?)

I see differences in every app.

Visual Studio scrolls line-by-line, but smoothly enough that it is OK.

Edge (in Microsoft sites, if that matters) scrolls like it was trying to emulate one of those nasty scroll-wheel-mouses that instead of rolling freely or with clear snap points, rather kinda-bumps-with-a-mushy-feeling (in summary: WTF nasty).

Microsoft Help Viewer scrolls line-by-line, but with a stupid amount of initial inertia that ignores you if you try to scroll really slow - but then something triggers and it starts speeding. It's like the Edge scrolling, but slightly less mushy.

DOS (I mean, cmd.exe ) windows again do something similar, but still less mushy - and show how it's not the mushiness, but the scroll model itself that is retarded and feels plain bad. To think what people do to adjust emacs scrolling... and here, DOS just scrolls like it was 1986. On purpose.

By the way, in Windows 10 one can still scroll WAY past the last text in the DOS window?? I would be reporting that as a bug if this was anywhere else. But I guess this is just... more "tradition"

Oh, and it's not only DOS, PowerShell ALSO does that!

To be fair, I'm seeing all of this in a VM. But Linux scrolling feels normal, so I guess it's not the VM's fault. I just wonder if it might be possible that Windows 10 really still can't scroll sideways with 2 fingers in a trackpad...
... and the console issues clearly are not because of any VM!

 

[JamesPDX]

Which Linux ? (Seriously, that is a big part of the problem.)

The other big problems are:

• Linux has few opaque APIs for kernel code
• Every new release comes with lots of "improvements" the break existing code, APIs and scripts

If I could run Avid Pro Tools 12.6, VSL/VEP6, and Lightroom on Linux, I'd be there.