Has Apple lost their mind? March 8th Event Disappointment

[the8thark]

Oh, so we’re talking about two different things: prosumer all-in-one vs prosumer headless. That’s fair, though I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see an Mx Max iMac in the 24” size sometime in the future. Would you consider the 27” screen essential for a prosumer iMac?

I wonder which one had more market demand: prosumer all-in-one or prosumer headless? Likely the latter, just judging from all the demands for a higher end desktop headless Mac over the years on forums like this. I’ve always felt that the iMac Pro fit into a weird space in Apple’s lineup, people who needed a legitimately pro computer but who didn’t already have (or need) a legitimately pro display and could settle on an all-on-one.

"Would you consider the 27” screen essential for a prosumer iMac?"
No. However today I would consider at least 32GB RAM essential and the at a minimum the M1 Pro level of cores and bandwidth to be essential.

We need to separate iMac Pro (essentially the high end 27 inch iMac) and the low to mid range 27 inch iMacs as the demand for each I feel was very different.

iMac Pro, I agree with you, felt very niche and the studio setup is probably better overall.
Low to mid range 27 inch iMac easily had a place in the ecosystem. As a mid range prosumer computer, for those who need more than the base level but also do not need a pro level workstation.

 

[arvinsim]

I was kinda excited about the M1 Ultra... until I found out, it's JUST a "dual-core" (in a rough sense of the term) M1 Max! It's just two M1 Max fused together... not exactly the ground-breaking technological leap they're painting it to be. Fuse 4 of them together... what are you going to call that? The M1 Ultra II?

I want an all-new processor... and they didn't deliver that... they just "doubled up" their previous offering. Yeah, you can't get such improvements anywhere/any way else, so... "Apple will do, what Apple will do." Good for you, if you can afford to spend Apple's kinda bucks on their latest offering, but not for me, thank you. I will gladly keep my M1 Mac Mini and gush over Blender's Metal improvements in Blender 3.1 and the kinda differences THAT brings. Knocked down rendering "Classroom" from a little over 11 min. (CPU only) down to under 5 min. (CPU+GPU). I love squeezing performance out of "older technoogy", more than just the latest and greatest thing being promoted.

I think the Mac Pro might be the custom chip that you are looking for.

 

[kc9hzn]

"Would you consider the 27” screen essential for a prosumer iMac?"
No. However today I would consider at least 32GB RAM essential and the at a minimum the M1 Pro level of cores and bandwidth to be essential.

We need to separate iMac Pro (essentially the high end 27 inch iMac) and the low to mid range 27 inch iMacs as the demand for each I feel was very different.

iMac Pro, I agree with you, felt very niche and the studio setup is probably better overall.
Low to mid range 27 inch iMac easily had a place in the ecosystem. As a mid range prosumer computer, for those who need more than the base level but also do not need a pro level workstation.

Oh, if it’s memory limits we’re talking about, I’d expect > 32GB to come in a future Mx series update, likely with late this year’s/early next year’s M2 and surely by late-2023’s/early-2024’s M3 chips. It would almost certainly have to go up to at least 64GB (and probably more) per chip for Apple Silicon to replace Intel in the Mac Pro for RAM intensive uses and memory bound workflows. I figured you were talking more about the form factor of the 27” iMac or iMac Pro than memory limits, as form factors have a lot more overhead in launching than processor spec upgrades.

 

[the8thark]

Oh, if it’s memory limits we’re talking about, I’d expect > 32GB to come in a future Mx series update, likely with late this year’s/early next year’s M2 and surely by late-2023’s/early-2024’s M3 chips. It would almost certainly have to go up to at least 64GB (and probably more) per chip for Apple Silicon to replace Intel in the Mac Pro for RAM intensive uses and memory bound workflows. I figured you were talking more about the form factor of the 27” iMac or iMac Pro than memory limits, as form factors have a lot more overhead in launching than processor spec upgrades.

Agreed 100%.

Form factor is nice but in the end of the day for most people, iMac or headless plus screen, either will suffice as long as the internals are what they need. The headless box is small enough for it not to be that much of a bother.
I hope you are right about M2 being more prosumer level.

If the base M2 was at M1 Pro levels of multicore performance (and probably a little better single core performance) and had a 32GB RAM option, I would put in an order in day 1. I assume so would many other people.

 

[darngooddesign]

...or low end M1 Max in a desktop that doesn't exist.

If you look at the MBPs the low-end M1-Max is in the base Studio.

 

[kc9hzn]

Agreed 100%.

Form factor is nice but in the end of the day for most people, iMac or headless plus screen, either will suffice as long as the internals are what they need. The headless box is small enough for it not to be that much of a bother.
I hope you are right about M2 being more prosumer level.

If the base M2 was at M1 Pro levels of multicore performance (and probably a little better single core performance) and had a 32GB RAM option, I would put in an order in day 1. I assume so would many other people.

I doubt we’ll see a 32GB option on the M2 (though I could be wrong), but, on an M2 Pro? Sure, I could definitely see that. I mean, the M1 is very much a consumer oriented chip (hence seeing it in the iPad Pro and now the iPad Air), and I don’t see it going past 16GB until Apple decides that consumer machines like the entry model MacBook Air need 32GB. The M1 Pro, however, definitely sits above consumer level machines (it’s more high end consumer or low end prosumer), and more RAM is an easy upgrade carrot to dangle.

 

[MigC]

I think the Mac Studio is reasonable. What’s not reasonable is discontinuing the 27-inch iMac, selling its display for almost the same price as the old iMac, and having no option for something between the base M1 and the M1 Max.

One of the perks of iMac being such a good option and used by counteless image professionals is exactly its screen, when you factor a similar screen from a 3rd party its the same price as current Studio Display if not more.
The way I see it, Apple kind of mafe iMac modular, you buy the screen and then choose if you want a "regular iMac" or "iMac Pro" to attach to it.

Lets not forget also how unified memory makes the higher GPUs/RAM very tempting.Is there any option for bigger than 64GB GPU options apart this?It maybe niche but enabling to put large complex scenes on VRAM is very appealing to 3D.

 

[wilberforce]

There are a lot of people (like me) that would like to get a Mac with ~27" 5K display with a decent processor and 32GB RAM and 1TB SSD for less than $3000. On Monday you could do so, on Tuesday this was no longer an option by any means (other than the refurb store or used)

 

[dreamerstree]

I'm so glad this thread was started. Isn't complaining the best? It's a good thing that there isn't an alternative to complaining.

 

[kc9hzn]

There are a lot of people (like me) that would like to get a Mac with ~27" 5K display with a decent processor and 32GB RAM and 1TB SSD for less than $3000. On Monday you could do so, on Tuesday this was no longer an option by any means (other than the refurb store or used)

You could really make an argument on the “decent processor” bit. It’s a five year old processor at this point. When it launched, yeah, it was a great chip, but not so much as of 2021. When Apple introduced the iMac Pro, I was worried about whether they’d overly constrained the design thermally like they had with the 2014 Mac Pro. And they had, we never did see an upgrade to the iMac Pro in all its lifetime. And there are likely cheaper (but lower end) offerings when it comes to 27” 5k displays from third parties, some of which may come in at below $1000. Cheaper high quality displays are far more likely than an iMac Pro upgrade ever was.

 

[EdT]

Exactly how I describe the Studio: overkill. This machine is aimed at a very niche audience. It's great engineering but it's not very useful for 90% of users, I think. I would've loved to see a revised Mini with an M1 Pro.

The price of the 27 inch iMac has been approximately $1800 for a long time, and the internal hard drive options have been pretty poor with small combination SSD/platter based fusion drives or larger but slower disk drives being the only options for years. So for me, a $2100 Studio with an upgrade to a 1TB drive isn’t a bad option. I THINK that 32 GB RAM will be more than enough, although I’m still nervous about Apple’s claims about people not needing as much memory because of their efficient architecture.

The additional cost of a monitor is what makes this unit a lot more expensive for me than my last iMac. Theoretically the monitor may last through multiple computer upgrades but standards change and Apple may change something 4-6 years from now that would mean that I need a new monitor then as well.

The speed seems very impressive and with Apples M architecture chips still being among the fastest after 2 years I don’t think that the speed is just marketing hype. So the question is do I want to pay $2500 to $2600 dollars to replace my current computer that cost $2000.

Other than the cost of the monitor and it’s various stands I don’t think that the price/performance curve is actually much different from my old iMac to today’s Studio. Apple always was more expensive than buying an x86 Windows computer, but I liked the OS more than Windows and software written for that OS ran better for me than the same program written for Windows. I don’t see how having a faster and more efficient processor is going to change my assessment in a negative way.

 

[darngooddesign]

I'm so glad this thread was started. Isn't complaining the best? It's a good thing that there isn't an alternative to complaining.

Is complaining about complaining the alternative? ?

 

[1300767]

If you think $7999 is a lot, then dont move to finland.

64 cores, 128gb ram and 8th ssd comes with a price tag of 9269 euros which is 10105 dollars.

 

[bluecoast]

Well yes but . . . If you are the consumer (or more likely prosumer) who wanted a M1 Pro or low end M1 Max in a desktop, you might spend more to get the low end studio. Sure it's overkill, but the alternates, being the Mini and 24 inch iMac do not fit your needs.

I agree with you totally but with the desktop prosumer option gone, people have to choose low end or high end.

I hear you. However, I suspect that the next iteration of the Mac mini will have an option to have the basic Mx chip or a Mx Pro.

I guess what I’m saying is that we all feel we ‘need’ new computers, but really it’s just ‘nice to have’ the latest and greatest most of the time!

For those people I think just be patient until the replacement of the intel Mac mini.

I still contend that the Mac Studio is for those who can see that this product will make a material difference to their work.

 

[Realityck]

There are a lot of people (like me) that would like to get a Mac with ~27" 5K display with a decent processor and 32GB RAM and 1TB SSD for less than $3000. On Monday you could do so, on Tuesday this was no longer an option by any means (other than the refurb store or used)

Don’t you find the fact that you could have ordered that as CFO for any options and get it fairly quickly and now that is removed suddenly? There was a blip when a user made a thread and said the 27” was missing 2 days before the show, neither myself and another a few mins later saw that happen. There was no ordering delays reflected to show it becoming EOL, it’s just gone after the peek performance. One could say Apple brought down the curtain on it at the last moment. It’s a mystery.

27" Inch Imac no longer on sale in Apple Store? New model Tuesday?

Hmm haven't see anything change for US web pages. None of the Mac store hierarchies have it absent? https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac-imac

forums.macrumors.com

 

[clevins]

I was very pleased with the display. I expected $1,999 minimum and potentially $2,499 so I was thrilled at the $1,599 price. I mean, compare it to the $1,200 LG 5K and you're getting a solid camera, speakers, much better design, and Apple synergy. It's not a cheap display and not for everyone, but I think is an excellent "Apple Value" for the current day.

The Studio Display is fine for what it is, but it's more than it needs to be. I'd rather have it be $1,199 and drop the speakers (or at least not make them be as high end with Spatial Audio etc) and built in camera. Are they nice? Yes. But what I care about is the screen itself and $1599 is out of range for me. $999 or so and I'd have been in. Ah well...

Problem here, is folks are thinking about the Mac Studio as a Mac Mini. It is not, in any way a new Mac Mini. It may be replacing the "high" Mac Mini in the product stack, but this is in no way a new Mac Mini. The price alone proves that point. Whether you are shocked about how high or low it is (based on your perspective), this is not targeting the previous customers for the Mac Mini. I think there is a reason that it is called Mac Studio (no mini in there), as it is either targeting folks who looked at the iMac Pro, or folks wanting a smaller Mac Pro.

Precisely. I get the segment of people, though, who would like a Mini but with 32g RAM, etc. The person who does work that really could benefit from more than 16gig RAM but who doesn't need (or can live without) the extra CPU.

Given that the INtel Mini is still available, I wonder if they'll rev the Mini when they rev the Air and do something like a Mini Pro with a slight CPU/GPU bump but more RAM etc. Basically the Mini equivalent of the 14" MBP.

 

[jasoncarle]

LOL...

 

[darngooddesign]

Quoting the price of these edge-case options like the 8TB upgrade always feels like an overly dramatic gesture. No one who is remotely price conscious is ordering that option.

 

[Realityck]

You also have this rumor to ponder

Kuo: iMac Pro Won't Launch Until 2023, 27-inch External Display Without Mini-LED Coming This Year

Apple will not launch an iMac Pro or a Mac Pro until 2023, while it still plans to release a 27-inch external display without mini-LED sometime this...

www.macrumors.com

 

[SirAnthonyHopkins]

‘This will literally save me days off my projects and/or enable me to get instant feedback off my client/stakeholder etc’

Why would a client respond to me quicker based on what computer I own?

 

[wills11]

I am traveling so I didn’t get to watch the event video but just read the Macrumors live blog (thank you for that) and seen the announcement.

Has Apple lost their damn mind???

So the price of entry for an M1 Ultra chip is $3799 for 512GB SSD drive or $3999 for 1TB

FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS AND YOU GIVE ME A 1TB DRIVE!!! This is 2022 and your high end Mac debuts with a 1TB drive. Are you kidding me???

That is not even counting how overpriced it us to start with … HOLY BATBUCKS

Maxed out build is $7999 !!!

and let’s talk about the dispay you will need … not a 32” … not a 30” but a 27” 5K display for $1600 !!!

Want to adjust the height on that display then add $400 for A STAND. A FOUR HUNDRED DOLLAR MONITOR STAND.

And now I am reading 27” iMac is discontinued.

There is not an instrument made that can measure how disappointing today’s event was for me. My feeling are literally hurt. I feel like an idiot for being an Apple guy for the last 17 years.

The rest of that crap they announced in fancy new colors was total crap too.

Anyone else this upset?

The most disappointing is the end of the larger iMac—I have a 2019 and would have considered an upgrade to the M1 if they made a 32" version. I use an Apple for work, but it's mostly non-graphics-intensive work—the iMac was the perfect solution.

Now it's just like a PC—you have to buy the computer and monitor separately—and if you want an Apple, it's going to be at least 150% of the price increase. If you want similar specs with a Mac 27" monitor, you'll have a 6k rather than 5k one, but it'll cost more than double what the iMac did.

I don't know enough about Apple's business to know if this will hurt them—but how many $2000 (including $400 stand!) 27" displays are they going to sell? Non-professional Apple users will just buy Mac Minis and 3rd-party monitors. And people will presumably upgrade less frequently—I'm still using my 4-year-old 3rd-gen iPad Pro 12.9"

I had an Apple II Plus as a child, and stayed with Apple through the late 1990s, when the price differential became so steep that I began building my own overclocked PCs. I tried some MS-compatible tablets until eventually the far-superior iPad brought me back to Apple.

But with these kind of insane prices I think I may soon consider going back to PCs—Apple is not only incredibly expensive now, but "It Just Works" has become a bit of a joke. The iPhone is still the sine qua non of smartphones, but it's over $1000 now.

What's the buy-in for someone switching to Apple now, who wants my basic setup? $3000+ for a Mac Mini and Sudio Monitor, $2500 for the iPhone and 12.9 iPad Pro, and $500 for the Watch—then throw in an Apple TV and a couple needed accessories and it's close to $7,000 before tax. That's pretty insane.

 

[Realityck]

What's the buy-in for someone switching to Apple now, who wants my basic setup? $3000+ for a Mac Mini and Sudio Monitor, $2500 for the iPhone and 12.9 iPad Pro, and $500 for the Watch—then throw in an Apple TV and a couple needed accessories and it's close to $7,000 before tax. That's pretty insane.

You omitted the M1 based 24” iMac. Yes it can drive the studio monitor.

 

[EdT]

The most disappointing is the end of the larger iMac—I have a 2019 and would have considered an upgrade to the M1 if they made a 32" version. I use an Apple for work, but it's mostly non-graphics-intensive work—the iMac was the perfect solution.

Now it's just like a PC—you have to buy the computer and monitor separately—and if you want an Apple, it's going to be at least 150% of the price increase. If you want similar specs with a Mac 27" monitor, you'll have a 6k rather than 5k one, but it'll cost more than double what the iMac did.

I don't know enough about Apple's business to know if this will hurt them—but how many $2000 (including $400 stand!) 27" displays are they going to sell? Non-professional Apple users will just buy Mac Minis and 3rd-party monitors. And people will presumably upgrade less frequently—I'm still using my 4-year-old 3rd-gen iPad Pro 12.9"

I had an Apple II Plus as a child, and stayed with Apple through the late 1990s, when the price differential became so steep that I began building my own overclocked PCs. I tried some MS-compatible tablets until eventually the far-superior iPad brought me back to Apple.

But with these kind of insane prices I think I may soon consider going back to PCs—Apple is not only incredibly expensive now, but "It Just Works" has become a bit of a joke. The iPhone is still the sine qua non of smartphones, but it's over $1000 now.

What's the buy-in for someone switching to Apple now, who wants my basic setup? $3000+ for a Mac Mini and Sudio Monitor, $2500 for the iPhone and 12.9 iPad Pro, and $500 for the Watch—then throw in an Apple TV and a couple needed accessories and it's close to $7,000 before tax. That's pretty insane.

On the front page of MacRumors they are now saying a 27 inch IMac will still be released this year.

 

[anthony13]

And honestly, the AirPods Max are pretty worth it if you can get a sale and pick up the 3.5mm dongle. They sound superb to my ears, noise canceling is great and has none of the fit issues I had with the AirPods Pro (the primary reason I bought the Max, actually), battery life is fine (though it would be nice if the case charged them like the AirPods and AirPods Pro cases do), and the dongle allows me to have great wireless and wired headphones for basically the same price. But yeah, they are hard to justify at $550, especially sight unseen (or perhaps sound unheard?).

Apple’s products honestly seem fairly priced to me, assuming you actually need what the product offers (quite a few of Apple’s offerings do overshoot the needs of consumers and even prosumers). Oh sure, Apple gets a healthy margin on each of them (no loss leaders here), but they do tend to outperform competitors’ products at the same price point. (It’s almost as if companies like Samsung take a product that would sell [margins and all] for roughly the price of Apple’s equivalent sans margins, then tart it up to try to sell at Apple’s prices [while cheaping out on it so they can sell at more-than-Apple margins]).

I think you nailed it with 'assuming you actually need what the product offers'. For years I bought powerful apple products and would have instant buyers remorse getting home and realizing I just surf the web. Recently however I got far enough in my career that I spend the bulk of my time rendering and drafting. All of a sudden my loaded MacBook Pro is literally only used for work, and I can actually enjoy my iPad as a media device (because my laptop has 'work' associations and I stay away from it off the clock.). All that to say, yes, I dont mind paying a premium for a product that just works, when my paycheck depends on it.

 

[kc9hzn]

The most disappointing is the end of the larger iMac—I have a 2019 and would have considered an upgrade to the M1 if they made a 32" version. I use an Apple for work, but it's mostly non-graphics-intensive work—the iMac was the perfect solution.

Now it's just like a PC—you have to buy the computer and monitor separately—and if you want an Apple, it's going to be at least 150% of the price increase. If you want similar specs with a Mac 27" monitor, you'll have a 6k rather than 5k one, but it'll cost more than double what the iMac did.

I don't know enough about Apple's business to know if this will hurt them—but how many $2000 (including $400 stand!) 27" displays are they going to sell? Non-professional Apple users will just buy Mac Minis and 3rd-party monitors. And people will presumably upgrade less frequently—I'm still using my 4-year-old 3rd-gen iPad Pro 12.9"

I had an Apple II Plus as a child, and stayed with Apple through the late 1990s, when the price differential became so steep that I began building my own overclocked PCs. I tried some MS-compatible tablets until eventually the far-superior iPad brought me back to Apple.

But with these kind of insane prices I think I may soon consider going back to PCs—Apple is not only incredibly expensive now, but "It Just Works" has become a bit of a joke. The iPhone is still the sine qua non of smartphones, but it's over $1000 now.

What's the buy-in for someone switching to Apple now, who wants my basic setup? $3000+ for a Mac Mini and Sudio Monitor, $2500 for the iPhone and 12.9 iPad Pro, and $500 for the Watch—then throw in an Apple TV and a couple needed accessories and it's close to $7,000 before tax. That's pretty insane.

Why would someone switching to Apple buy all that today? Why would some switcher need a Studio Monitor? For that matter, why wouldn’t a 4k or 1980 monitor still work for them? Why would they upgrade to an iPad Pro unless they need the features the Pro offers over the iPad Air or the entry level iPad? And why would they buy an Apple Watch immediately? (Incidentally, the Apple Watch is the only one of those purchases that REQUIRES you to purchase any of the others. For any of those other items, you could totally just buy the item and the accessories you want.) If we’re cherry picking the most expensive offerings in each category, why not change that Mac mini for a Mac Pro and the Studio Monitor for a Pro XDR Display?

Also, someone could be mostly in the Apple ecosystem and still use parts of other ecosystems (especially with regards to Apple TV/Apple Music or 3rd party accessories). There’s no need to buy a display from Apple, unless Apple’s display offers features you need (or would find useful and worth the price) that you can’t get from 3rd party displays at the same price. For that matter, there was that period between the discontinuation of the Thunderbolt Display and the introduction of the Pro XDR Display when Apple didn’t sell any displays. It would have been silly to suggest that switchers wouldn’t have any display options at all.