I do not want macOS on iPad. Ever.

[macmus12]

All they have to do is replace Files with Finder and that’ll make half of the macOS-on-iPad people happy.

and allow dmg installs lol ?

 

[quarq]

This article I think https://www.macstories.net/stories/not-an-ipad-pro-review/ outlines well what is missing from iPadOS.

TL;DR
Missing Apps: Calculator, TextEdit, Preview,
Missing Desktop Class Apps
Files (aka Finder) (I would argue this is the biggest one)
Audio Limitations: You cannot play multiple audio streams at the same time. You cannot record your own local audio while on a VoIP call.

But read the article.. It's quite good.

 

[bill-p]

Is simply untrue. There is no narrative. There are opinions based on past experiences. Maybe you should read my topic start. I explained those perfectly in there.

There is a narrative. You keep dismissing everything else as “invalid” because it doesn’t fit into the narrative of “MacOS shouldn’t be on iPad”.

Perhaps you should try to read your own words and see why so many people are disagreeing with you?

 

[Kal Madda]

Wait. Before you start commenting that I'm stupid. Just read on...

I agree that iPadOS (in its current form) is a massive limiting factor for the iPad. But I don't think that 'just release macOS on iPad' will be the answer. MacOS is entirely designed for trackpad and keyboard use. Icons, fonts and UI elements are too small to use with touch alone. And the iPad is still a primary touch device, and it should be. An iPad is not a MacBook without keyboard. Even if you add the keyboard stand an iPad will never become a MacBook.

Trying to force macOS onto iPad is just beyond stupid. And in the end it will hurt both iPad and mac users. Because Apple would either just have to change the UI of macOS to fit with touch input or just stick the terrible touch controls onto iPad. And these scenarios basically copy what Microsoft did with Windows 8 and Windows 10.

With Windows 8 they, Microsoft, tried to force an iPad-like (tablet friendly) UI upon everyone who used it. By making the start menu full screen only, removing the start button entirely and opening most apps in full screen. Also they made all UI elements 3-4x the size they were in Windows 7. This UI was very popular with Surface (Pro) users and basically allowed them "full Windows on an iPad-like device". But alienating everyone who did not use a tablet. Windows 8 quickly became the most hated Windows version since Vista for most PC users.

This forced Microsoft to do a 180 and drastically change things with Windows 10. Which almost entirely ditched the Metro/tablet UI and brought back the Start menu. Also UI elements were reduced in size again and Apps didn't force a full screen anymore. Which made it a very compelling OS for desktop / laptop users. But it made it a lot worse for tablet users, and here we also saw a steady decline in Surface (tablet) users. But it did also have some lingering issues from Windows 8 like the new Settings screen and the less than useable 'metro' styled Apps. Stuff most power users still disable these days with Windows 11.

So in the end, forcing desktop Windows upon a tablet was worse for both the tablet AND the desktop users. And sure Apple could port the UI of iPadOS to only an iPad version of macOS. But that is basically already what iPadOS is. And it would require all mac-only software to be redesigned before it would work on iPad.

My solution: improve iPadOS. With stuff like Stage manager and pro apps. Allow JIT compilation. And release XCode on iPad Pro. And sure, fully allow pro users to install any app from any source. But keep the primary focus on touch controls with the current optional keyboard and trackpad support.

Edit: later in the topic I also talk about the possibility to run mac apps on iPad like you can run iOS/iPadOS apps on Apple Silicon Macs. Which would also be a useful solution.

I 100% agree with you. I use an IPad as my primary computer, and I’m actually pretty happy with iPadOS in its current state. But I am all for improving it and adding the ability to run Mac apps. But I definitely don’t want macOS on it, as I think it would actually slow my workflow down, and the touch interactions would be horrendous. I think iPadOS is very close to being on par with macOS.

 

[bill-p]

But I am all for improving it and adding the ability to run Mac apps.

“Adding the ability to run Mac apps” is actually disagreeing with the OP.

I don’t think you and many others understand it so I’ll try to spell it out here:

The “MacOS on iPad” side either wants:
1. MacOS-like functionality on iPadOS (file management, multiple ways to load, run and code apps…)
2. MacOS apps on iPadOS (note that most of these apps will still require keyboard and mouse)

The OP and others like him want:
1. Absolutely no Mac apps on iPadOS because that “diminishes the iPad experience”.
2. Absolutely no extra access to the system because that “compromises security for the unaware”

So that is just to clear things up. They are not advocating for MacOS features on iPadOS. They are saying iPadOS should never be “improved” to have those features.

Am I reading your thread right, @SanderEvers ?

 

[Kal Madda]

“Adding the ability to run Mac apps” is actually disagreeing with the OP.

I don’t think you and many others understand it so I’ll try to spell it out here:

The “MacOS on iPad” side either wants:
1. MacOS-like functionality on iPadOS (file management, multiple ways to load, run and code apps…)
2. MacOS apps on iPadOS (note that most of these apps will still require keyboard and mouse)

The OP and others like him want:
1. Absolutely no Mac apps on iPadOS because that “diminishes the iPad experience”.
2. Absolutely no extra access to the system because that “compromises security for the unaware”

So that is just to clear things up. They are not advocating for MacOS features on iPadOS. They are saying iPadOS should never be “improved” to have those features.

Am I reading your thread right, @SanderEvers ?

No, Mac apps on the iPad does not go against what OP is advocating for, he said he was in favor of it and it was a potentially useful solution. And he also never said anything against adding any more macOS features to iPadOS.

 

[bill-p]

No, Mac apps on the iPad does not go against what OP is advocating for, he said he was in favor of it and it was a potentially useful solution. And he also never said anything against adding any more macOS features to iPadOS.

I guess you missed this.

My point is Apple should keep improving iPadOS and iOS. But I don't think giving the user full control or forcing full control upon the user. Also a lot of people do want MacOS on the iPad. And that is purely the reason I made this topic.

If you would replace iPadOS with macOS (even as an option) a lot of developers will no longer make apps for iPad. Or iPad apps will become a lot lower in quality. (my whole Windows-point)

Basically the OP swings back and forth on the “how” of Mac apps running on iPadOS but one thing is clear: that side is also saying that if Mac apps are allowed to run on iPadOS that developers will be less incentivized to port the apps over to iPadOS properly to support touch.

Also many features of MacOS do require “full control” of the system, and they are against that as well.

 

[SanderEvers]

“Adding the ability to run Mac apps” is actually disagreeing with the OP.

I don’t think you and many others understand it so I’ll try to spell it out here:

The “MacOS on iPad” side either wants:
1. MacOS-like functionality on iPadOS (file management, multiple ways to load, run and code apps…)
2. MacOS apps on iPadOS (note that most of these apps will still require keyboard and mouse)

The OP and others like him want:
1. Absolutely no Mac apps on iPadOS because that “diminishes the iPad experience”.
2. Absolutely no extra access to the system because that “compromises security for the unaware”

So that is just to clear things up. They are not advocating for MacOS features on iPadOS. They are saying iPadOS should never be “improved” to have those features.

Am I reading your thread right, @SanderEvers ?

No you are not.

I want Apple to improve iPad OS, and improving means adding more options. Including running mac apps on iPad. But still within an app sandbox. This would limit the security compromise, and it would entice developers to adapt iPadOS in their mac apps. In the end that would make iPadOS more useful.

Putting macOS (the entire OS) on iPad (even as option) would not force developers to adapt the iPad screen size into their apps. And it would stop developers of iPad Pro apps to make their apps work on iPadOS. (Since people can just run macOS). This would reduce iPadOS to basically bigger iOS. (even more than it currently is)

My solution is to allow iPadOS to run macOS apps like how macOS already can run iPadOS/iOS apps. This incentivizes developers to adapt these apps to iPadOS. (since they are forced to use a smaller screen)

There is a narrative. You keep dismissing everything else as “invalid” because it doesn’t fit into the narrative of “MacOS shouldn’t be on iPad”.

Perhaps you should try to read your own words and see why so many people are disagreeing with you?

It's not a narrative, it's an opinion. And most people actually agree with me. Plus for the people who disagree, none of them actually come with points that would actually require MacOS to be on the iPad.

I guess you missed this.



Basically the OP swings back and forth on the “how” of Mac apps running on iPadOS but one thing is clear: that side is also saying that if Mac apps are allowed to run on iPadOS that developers will be less incentivized to port the apps over to iPadOS properly to support touch.

Also many features of MacOS do require “full control” of the system, and they are against that as well.

Except I'm not swinging back and forth between them. My point always included improvement to iPadOS. I've explicitly even added the ability to run mac apps on iPadOS.

 

[Kal Madda]

I guess you missed this.

Basically the OP swings back and forth on the “how” of Mac apps running on iPadOS but one thing is clear: that side is also saying that if Mac apps are allowed to run on iPadOS that developers will be less incentivized to port the apps over to iPadOS properly to support touch.

Also many features of MacOS do require “full control” of the system, and they are against that as well.

He said if iPadOS was replaced with macOS (presumably on iPad Pro models), then developers would be less incentivized to advance their iPad versions of those apps, and it would hurt the iPad experience. That’s not the same as “I don’t think any macOS features or apps should be added to iPadOS”. You’re creating straw men, and reading way more into what OP believes than what he’s actually repeatedly clarified he believes. I sympathize, because I basically have the exact same view on this as the OP. I want Apple to focus on improving iPadOS and making it more functional while preserving its touch optimization and greater level of security.

 

[bill-p]

No you are not.

I want Apple to improve iPad OS, and improving means adding more options. Including running mac apps on iPad. But still within an app sandbox. This would limit the security compromise, and it would entice developers to adapt iPadOS in their mac apps. In the end that would make iPadOS more useful.

So then I am misunderstanding this post of yours?

I do not want macOS on iPad. Ever.

There is a differnece between less technically inclined or "not IT professional". And this is exactly where your argument falls on its face. I see there are 4 kinds of computer users: 1. People who know about computers but do not know how to operate them safely. (for example: my parents) 2...

forums.macrumors.com

But that isn't even my main issue. Currently developers, who want their apps on iPad, need to alter their apps to make it work as best as possible. Most developers are lazy, if you give them an easy eay out (just use macOS on the iPad to use our pro-app), they will use it. Every. Time. This means that there are less apps for iPadOS in the future, which hurts people who do not want macOS on their iPad.

Are we allowing developers an “easy way out” or not? Should MacOS apps be allowed to run on iPadOS or not? You seem to imply both yes and no.

I’ll also try to remind: MacOS and iPadOS are fundamentally Darwin. They are one and the same system. When you write apps, the frameworks are basically the same now. The only difference is in whether there are handlers for mouse events or touch events (both systems support keyboard).

 

[SanderEvers]

For mac on iPad it's simple: Apps yes, OS no.

 

[bill-p]

He said if iPadOS was replaced with macOS (presumably on iPad Pro models), then developers would be less incentivized to advance their iPad versions of those apps, and it would hurt the iPad experience.

If you think about it carefully, you’re basically saying that you want iPad to be able to just run Mac apps. In a sandbox or not.

But you also don’t want iPad to be able to run Mac apps through having MacOS because it makes developers lazy and not make proper iPad versions of those apps.

So please consider carefully what you are saying. It’s very conflicting. You either allow them to or you don’t.

 

[bill-p]

For mac on iPad it's simple: Apps yes, OS no.

Okay. We can go with that. So then it is okay for app developers to be lazy, just bring their apps over as is without any optimizations at all and call it a day?

Because now you are allowing them to do just that.

 

[Kal Madda]

Okay. We can go with that. So then it is okay for app developers to be lazy, just bring their apps over as is without any optimizations at all and call it a day?

Because now you are allowing them to do just that.

There’s the crux of your problem “without any optimizations at all” assumes that there are no optimizations. I for one, would want at least some optimizations, and I’m pretty sure that’s what the OP is saying as well. Just like Catalyst makes UI optimizations for the Mac, a reverse Catalyst could hopefully make optimizations for the iPad, making it feel more native to the platform.

PS this also goes for your response to me.

 

[bill-p]

There’s the crux of your problem “without any optimizations at all” assumes that there are no optimizations. I for one, would want at least some optimizations, and I’m pretty sure that’s what the OP is saying as well. Just like Catalyst makes UI optimizations for the Mac, a reverse Catalyst could hopefully make optimizations for the iPad, making it feel more native to the platform.

There are no optimizations. It’s not an assumption.

The idea was already mentioned: just run Mac apps in a sandbox.

That means “as is” unless somehow this sandbox is doing something extra to the apps we are not aware of?

 

[Kal Madda]

If you think about it carefully, you’re basically saying that you want iPad to be able to just run Mac apps. In a sandbox or not.

But you also don’t want iPad to be able to run Mac apps through having MacOS because it makes developers lazy and not make proper iPad versions of those apps.

So please consider carefully what you are saying. It’s very conflicting. You either allow them to or you don’t.

Also, on another note, that is not my only reason for not wanting to run Mac apps on iPadOS through macOS. I don’t want to run them through macOS because it would be a bad experience. Nobody wants to run iOS apps on macOS through iOS, why would I want to run Mac apps on the iPad through macOS?

 

[bill-p]

Also, on another note, that is not my only reason for not wanting to run Mac apps on iPadOS through macOS. I don’t want to run them through macOS because it would be a bad experience. Nobody wants to run iOS apps on macOS through iOS, why would I want to run Mac apps on the iPad through macOS?

See, we have basically these 2 kinds of apps being discussed:
1. Mac apps - fundamentally for keyboard and mouse operation
2. iPad apps - fundamentally for touch

And you are saying you want your iPad to be able to run Mac apps “as is” without any work to get them to work with touch? (Note: that would require a UI/UX redesign)

 

[Kal Madda]

There are no optimizations. It’s not an assumption.

The idea was already mentioned: just run Mac apps in a sandbox.

That means “as is” unless somehow this sandbox is doing something extra to the apps we are not aware of?

A. The sandbox preserves system security measures that macOS doesn’t have to the same degree.

B. He didn’t say this as the only possible condition. Again, you assumed. He earlier mentioned Catalyst, which implies to me that he may be considering the fact that Catalyst doesn’t port apps to the Mac “unoptimized”, but rather, makes some automatic adjustments to make it’s interactions more native to the system.

 

[SanderEvers]

Okay. We can go with that. So then it is okay for app developers to be lazy, just bring their apps over as is without any optimizations at all and call it a day?

Because now you are allowing them to do just that.

Sure, but developers that do so will only hurt themselves because other developers will optimize their apps for iPad screens. This would lead into normal competition.

 

[Kal Madda]

See, we have basically these 2 kinds of apps being discussed:
1. Mac apps - fundamentally for keyboard and mouse operation
2. iPad apps - fundamentally for touch

And you are saying you want your iPad to be able to run Mac apps “as is” without any work to get them to work with touch? (Note: that would require a UI/UX redesign)

Another straw man. I never said “as is” you literally just made that up. I literally just said I think it should make optimizations like Catalyst in the other direction does… 🤦🏼‍♂️

 

[bill-p]

A. The sandbox preserves system security measures that macOS doesn’t have to the same degree.

B. He didn’t say this as the only possible condition. Again, you assumed. He earlier mentioned Catalyst, which implies to me that he may be considering the fact that Catalyst doesn’t port apps to the Mac “unoptimized”, but rather, makes some automatic adjustments to make it’s interactions more native to the system.

A. MacOS has the same security measures as iPadOS. They are both Darwin. Actually, we have been talking about the same OS all along. iPadOS just does not have the UI for users to access the rest.

B. Catalyst does in fact just run apps on Mac unoptimized. It doesn’t modify the app itself. Apps that need multi-touch basically don’t function right unless it’s something simple like pinch to zoom.

 

[bill-p]

Sure, but developers that do so will only hurt themselves because other developers will optimize their apps for iPad screens. This would lead into normal competition.

Okay. Then at least we can agree that you are not entirely against the idea of mixed use cases like mouse/keyboard apps being forced on the iPad.

So then how is that any different from just allowing MacOS “mode” to be activated somehow in the system? As you mentioned: just sandbox it.

 

[Kal Madda]

Sure, but developers that do so will only hurt themselves because other developers will optimize their apps for iPad screens. This would lead into normal competition.

This is also a good point. Even if we were to assume that no optimizations were made to these apps, there would still be competition from actual native iPadOS apps, unlike if you just replace iPadOS with macOS, which would just leave a ton of Mac apps which aren’t optimized for touch.

 

[bill-p]

Another straw man. I never said “as is” you literally just made that up. I literally just said I think it should make optimizations like Catalyst in the other direction does… 🤦🏼‍♂️

I do understand what you meant. I just don’t think you understand what you are proposing. You can see from my conversation with the OP that “as is” is indeed the idea.

And as mentioned, Catalyst doesn’t make optimizations. You use the apps as is. Like you are just using a mouse cursor to control a touch-based app. Single-touch or simple apps can function well but multi-touch apps have issues.

 

[Kal Madda]

A. MacOS has the same security measures as iPadOS. They are both Darwin. Actually, we have been talking about the same OS all along. iPadOS just does not have the UI for users to access the rest.

B. Catalyst does in fact just run apps on Mac unoptimized. It doesn’t modify the app itself. Apps that need multi-touch basically don’t function right unless it’s something simple like pinch to zoom.

A. It doesn’t. MacOS is a free-for-all with multiple security threats like App Sideloading and higher system access for apps that make it a less secure platform than iPadOS. And Apps are not sandboxed in the same way they are on iPadOS.

B. It does make changes to apps. It adds things to the app like File Edit Menu options, reduced button sizes, traffic light buttons, etc. I actually read material about Catalyst, and have seen apps run through Catalyst.