I think I've had a change of heart on the ARM Macs.

[Yebubbleman]

Mac is still a perfect platform for casual gaming. I use it all the time. I don't need my $2,500 custom built gaming PC for Stardew Valley or Factorio.

My comment wasn't as much about hardware as it was about software. Though, certainly the quality of 15" MacBook Pros declined after 2018 and by the time the 16" MacBook Pro came on the scene, it came with Catalina and therefore couldn't run a vast majority of Mac games out there.

 

[staypuftforums]

This isn't the 90s anymore. Websites can be more intensive than Word these days.

I'm using an AMD budget system I bought from Best Buy in 2010 with 4GB of RAM. There is no website I've ever visited that's caused my PC a problem. The idea that a $1,000 machine sold in 2021 can't manage... web surfing... is completely absurd.

 

[senttoschool]

I'm using an AMD budget system I bought from Best Buy in 2010 with 4GB of RAM. There is no website I've ever visited that's caused my PC a problem. The idea that a $1,000 machine sold in 2021 can't manage... web surfing... is completely absurd.

Depends on what you mean by "problem". Does it work? Yes. Is it fast enough? Probably. Is it fastest and smoothest? No way.

 

[JMacHack]

I'm using an AMD budget system I bought from Best Buy in 2010 with 4GB of RAM. There is no website I've ever visited that's caused my PC a problem. The idea that a $1,000 machine sold in 2021 can't manage... web surfing... is completely absurd.

With or without adblock? I find websites unmanageably slow without an adblocker.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Two final points...

- The GPU is still dog crap, but at least it isn't as bad as every Intel intergrated GPU out there. We know Apple will eventually get there with the GPU, so that is exciting for the future.

- I still have a feeling Apple will lock down Mac OS like IOS, and if that happens... it's dead to me. But if the EU do change the law to make it so Apple has to allow sideloading on IOS, that might never happen.

These are critical points for me.

I need more GPU power before I switch and, like you, if your 2nd point ever truly becomes true (iOS level lockdown), I will absolutely be out on macOS for the first time since 2002.

It would be sad, but I'm not at all interested in being told what I can/can't do with my desktop OS. I grudgingly deal with that on mobile/table (but I do jailbreak) and hate it.

 

[pshufd]

These are critical points for me.

I need more GPU power before I switch and, like you, if your 2nd point ever truly becomes true (iOS level lockdown), I will absolutely be out on macOS for the first time since 2002.

It would be sad, but I'm not at all interested in being told what I can/can't do with my desktop OS. I grudgingly deal with that on mobile/table (but I do jailbreak) and hate it.

There are a lot of customers, particularly office workers, for who the iGPU is fine. I have a GTX 1050 ti and a GT 1030 in my Windows desktop. The iGPU is comparable to the GTX 1050 ti in performance but it doesn't have four monitor outputs. The iGPU easily beats the GT 1030 in performance and the type of monitors it can drive. I would guess that the GT 1030 is the top-selling GPU out there; though it's possible that the GT 710 is doing better. If you want a 1660 or something more current, it's a lot of money and you may not really know who you are buying it from and you might wind up with a brick.

 

[jdb8167]

It would be sad, but I'm not at all interested in being told what I can/can't do with my desktop OS. I grudgingly deal with that on mobile/table (but I do jailbreak) and hate it.

I’ve been a Mac user since 1985 and I would switch to Linux if Apple was ever dumb enough to lock down MacOS like iOS. They won’t though. They need developer support and developers can’t work efficiently on locked down computers.

 

[turbineseaplane]

There are a lot of customers, particularly office workers, for who the iGPU is fine.

I never said that wasn't true - I agree in fact

I was talking about myself

 

[JMacHack]

I keep reiterating this but it never seems to sink in:

Apple isn’t some snidely whiplash Saturday morning cartoon villain. The notion that there’s some “evil plan hatched within the deepest bowels of Cupertino” is pure nonsense that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

If you want evidence, look at every reply in this thread. I don’t think I have to say that the Mac is reliant on being an open platform. And I certainly don’t think that fact has escaped Apple’s knowledge. Locking down the Mac iOS style would be market suicide.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I keep reiterating this but it never seems to sink in:

Apple isn’t some snidely whiplash Saturday morning cartoon villain. The notion that there’s some “evil plan hatched within the deepest bowels of Cupertino” is pure nonsense that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

If you want evidence, look at every reply in this thread. I don’t think I have to say that the Mac is reliant on being an open platform. And I certainly don’t think that fact has escaped Apple’s knowledge. Locking down the Mac iOS style would be market suicide.

Could be that the market evaporates long before macOS is locked down. The question is only how far do sales need to drop before they just stop making them?

 

[JMacHack]

Could be that the market evaporates long before macOS is locked down. The question is only how far do sales need to drop before they just stop making them?

I can’t fathom the business decision behind that. It’s completely illogical.

Making a huge user-unfriendly overhaul to an operating system that’s been open for its entire history, because sales are dropping?

 

[Jorbanead]

Could be that the market evaporates long before macOS is locked down. The question is only how far do sales need to drop before they just stop making them?

iPhones are locked down because nobody needs terminal on their phone or complex file systems. iPhone is supposed to be stupid simple. I’m sure you could find someone that would be interested in that, but it’s just not something needed on a phone because anyone who does need that kind of control over the system will go to a Mac. For me and millions of other users, I prefer that my iPhone be stupid simple.

My Mac for me and many others however is my workstation. It’s where I go to create, work, develop, and for that I need a more complex system. I want to tweak things and manage the system how I see fit. And that’s exactly how the Apple ecosystem is setup. The iPad is sort of iN-between. It’s a bit more open than iPhone, but still locked down compared to Mac. Just because one is locked down more does not mean the Mac will get that same treatment. There’s really no reason for it because that’s not the UX for Mac. That IS though the UX for iPhone.

iPhone or iPad sales have little to do with Mac. One being successful doesn’t negate the other. Mac just had its most successful year ever and even if Mac sales were declining, there’s still plenty of incentive for Apple to create and support the Mac line for decades to come. Mac sales are almost 5x what they were back in 2006 and back then Apple was mainly focused on the just Mac. Even if apple cut their sales in half, they’d still be selling plenty of units to justify RnD costs and support.

 

[satcomer]

Poorly designed web-sites are probably the issue.

I find this many times over years! It seems some Web developers are really novices!

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I can’t fathom the business decision behind that. It’s completely illogical.

Making a huge user-unfriendly overhaul to an operating system that’s been open for its entire history, because sales are dropping?

No, I’m saying that it’s quite likely that the number people that want to BUY Macs will be decreasing over time. Down to the point to where no one will care if it’s locked down or not because no one’s using it. Like, there’s no one left wondering if, one day, the Apple II will be locked down like iOS.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

My Mac for me and many others however is my workstation. It’s where I go to create, work, develop, and for that I need a more complex system. I want to tweak things and manage the system how I see fit.
…
Mac just had its most successful year ever and even if Mac sales were declining, there’s still plenty of incentive for Apple to create and support the Mac line for decades to come. Mac sales are almost 5x what they were back in 2006 and back then Apple was mainly focused on the just Mac. Even if apple cut their sales in half, they’d still be selling plenty of units to justify RnD costs and support.

Last year WAS a unique year, sales rose across the board. We’ll see what that translates into in 2021. My prediction is that it’ll be an anomaly and Apple will drop back to the respectable but, compared to their other products, small 20 million a year volume, of which only half goes to folks that have not owned a Mac anymore.

That people that have owned Macs are buying Macs not a surprise. That HALF of the people haven’t owned Macs before is a good number, BUT that number more than any other is likely to slide. Especially as those with REALLY simple needs (i.e. most of the folks using computers) realize that having a portable device that can do essentially the same things (email, shopping, internet browsing), go with them wherever, and be online from wherever they are is actually more beneficial for how they use a computer.

I would imagine that Apple will always be willing to make and sell Macs to those that still want to buy them, Apple will just continue to use components from the iPad line to make them cheaper and cheaper to make. As long as Macs are required for Xcode, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, then there will be a small group (compared to all computing device users) that will need them and nothing else will do. The moment ANY of these is capable on something other than a Mac is when the countdown to irrelevance starts.

 

[Jorbanead]

Last year WAS a unique year, sales rose across the board. We’ll see what that translates into in 2021. My prediction is that it’ll be an anomaly and Apple will drop back to the respectable

Apple has already sold the same amount of macs in 2021 as they did in 2019.
Mac sales since 2006 have only increased. There seems to be no real decline in sales.

Apple will just continue to use components from the iPad line to make them cheaper and cheaper to make.

Like what? Apple already uses the same display manufactures, the same battery tech, TSMC is the same, there already is a lot of overlap in production. There’s not much else they can do?

the moment ANY of these is capable on something other than a Mac is when the countdown to irrelevance starts.

No. I use both FCP and Logic Pro daily and no. Everything about that makes no sense. The second they put FCP and Logic on iPad I will still be over here on my Mac. Because the UX for iPad and the UX for Mac are worlds apart. Would I also use an iPad for Logic? Maybe sometimes for remote recording (though I would still prefer a MacBook Pro instead). But it would never replace my Mac as a main driver. Mac will always have a higher thermal envelope so even if iPad could compete with an high-end Mac later in the future, the Mac will always have better sustained loads and thermals.

All this being said, you seem to forget the UX (user experience) for iPad and Mac are different. Just because you CAN answer emails on an iPad doesn’t mean macs are going obsolete. You could answer emails on your iphone for years. Just because you can watch YouTube on your iPad doesn’t mean people will just switch to iPad instead. Everyone’s different and everyone prefers different things. That’s what is great about the Apple ecosystem is they have products that serve different user experiences based on preference.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Mac sales since 2006 have only increased. There seems to be no real decline in sales.

There’s been years with declines. They’ve pretty much stayed in the 15 to 20 million range for years. More stagnant than anything else. If it’s true that in 2021, they are matching and not drastically exceeding 2019, then, yeah, they’re probably up for another 20 something million year as they always do.

No. I use both FCP and Logic Pro daily and no. Everything about that makes no sense. The second they put FCP and Logic on iPad I will still be over here on my Mac.

YOU will be on YOUR Mac. But, that group of 17 year olds that wants\ to dabble in video editing using someone’s credit card? Likely on the iPads they already own rather than having to buy a Mac AND the software. And, from today to, say 30 years from now, that 17 year old and their friends are going to continue buying more and handing down more not Macs.

If the share of folks buying Macs that have NEVER bought a Mac before starts to decrease, that’s a warning sign… I’d even say LISTEN for it during the quarterly calls. If they ever stop announcing that half of folks buying a Mac have never owned a Mac it’ll be a part of a decline in sales. Not by much, but you’ll see it in the estimates. If it gets to where mainly only Mac people are buying Macs, well, it’s not like they’ll be buying Macs forever. The market would slowly shrivel up.

ANNNND ultimately, I intentionally didn’t say iPad, I said “the moment ANY of these is capable on something other than a Mac”. Could be an iPad, sure, could be a new non-Mac system that provides desktop performance features to the iPadOS software line, or COULD be another Windowed operating system… if it goes ANYWHERE other than the Mac that we know today, even if a future cloud product allows you to develop iOS/iPadOS software without needing a Mac, that’s the end of the line for the Mac. Just waiting for the singing.

 

[Jorbanead]

There’s been years with declines. They’ve pretty much stayed in the 15 to 20 million range for years. More stagnant than anything else. If it’s true that in 2021, they are matching and not drastically exceeding 2019, then, yeah, they’re probably up for another 20 something million year as they always do.


YOU will be on YOUR Mac. But, that group of 17 year olds that wants\ to dabble in video editing using someone’s credit card? Likely on the iPads they already own rather than having to buy a Mac AND the software. And, from today to, say 30 years from now, that 17 year old and their friends are going to continue buying more and handing down more not Macs.

If the share of folks buying Macs that have NEVER bought a Mac before starts to decrease, that’s a warning sign… I’d even say LISTEN for it during the quarterly calls. If they ever stop announcing that half of folks buying a Mac have never owned a Mac it’ll be a part of a decline in sales. Not by much, but you’ll see it in the estimates. If it gets to where mainly only Mac people are buying Macs, well, it’s not like they’ll be buying Macs forever. The market would slowly shrivel up.

ANNNND ultimately, I intentionally didn’t say iPad, I said “the moment ANY of these is capable on something other than a Mac”. Could be an iPad, sure, could be a new non-Mac system that provides desktop performance features to the iPadOS software line, or COULD be another Windowed operating system… if it goes ANYWHERE other than the Mac that we know today, even if a future cloud product allows you to develop iOS/iPadOS software without needing a Mac, that’s the end of the line for the Mac. Just waiting for the singing.

The user experience is what matters to people. So it doesn't matter "the moment ANY of these is capable on something other than a Mac" if the user experience is not preferred. Mail, web browsing, chat, video calls, text editing - all of those things already ARE available on other devices that are not macs. Yet some people still use macs for these tasks because they prefer the user experience over the other options. Why do people still buy MacBook pro's when you can get an iPad with a magic keyboard? Because the user experience lacks. Even if they both ran the exact same applications, some people (for example: audio, television, film, animation, UI/UX, architects, graphic designers, photographers, and even average consumers etc.) would still prefer the Mac user experience over iPad. Simply because they enjoy that experience better.

And when I say "I" when referring to FCP and Logic, I am also speaking for the hundreds of others that I know personally that also use these programs. It's not just me. It's the industry that I work in. It's the people I work with. It's what I see every single day. I don't know a single youtuber that edits on an iPad. Those people would likely fit into your demographic you mentioned. They all edit on macbooks and/or imacs.

Of course there are people who do and will use iPad for these things as well. But that doesn't mean the mac is going away.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The user experience is what matters to people. So it doesn't matter "the moment ANY of these is capable on something other than a Mac" if the user experience is not preferred. Mail, web browsing, chat, video calls, text editing - all of those things already ARE available on other devices that are not macs.

In this case, I’m speaking specifically about Xcode, Final Cut Pro, and Logic. Generic software is generic software and it’s available anywhere. However, if you NEED to run Xcode, Final Cut Pro or Logic Pro, you’re only going to be doing that on a Mac. They’re a few of the small number of things that sets really sets a Mac apart from anything else. Like, if you HATE the Mac, but still want to make money making games for iOS, you’re going to have a Mac because you need one to run Xcode. However, if Apple says that you no longer have to be limited to the finite number of Mac Pro’s they make… you could build a MONSTER of a Windows machine, and configure it such that it flies through FCP, compiles Xcode faster or handles far more simultaneous tracks in Logic with the ADDED bonus of being able to upgrade the CPU/GPU to whatever you want whenever you want, there are a LOT of folks that would be very tempted to build their own dream Pro Apple App machine, especially if supported by Apple. I’m saying that IF Apple makes such an announcement, like when they announced the end of FCP7, it doesn’t really matter anymore what the fans want, Apple will have made their decision about the future of their Pro Apps (not Mac only anymore) and it’s clear that the handwriting would be on the wall.

And when I say "I" when referring to FCP and Logic, I am also speaking for the hundreds of others that I know personally that also use these programs. It's not just me. It's the industry that I work in. It's the people I work with. It's what I see every single day. I don't know a single youtuber that edits on an iPad. Those people would likely fit into your demographic you mentioned. They all edit on macbooks and/or imacs.

Oh, I understood, people that grew up with a Mac will generally prefer a Mac over any other option. MILLIONS of folks grew up with a Mac. What I’M saying is that millions upon millions more are NOT growing up with a Mac. The Mac and even PC way of working is completely foreign to them. Expecting that those folks would prefer a Mac is like expecting mouse computer users to choose a command line driven system. So Windows folks won’t want a Mac, iPad users won’t want a Mac (unless they need Xcode, FCP or Logic which the vast majority will never need), the only people wanting Macs will be folks that have used Macs before. And, 20 years from now, a lot of those Mac users won’t be buying Macs anymore either.

 

[pshufd]

In this case, I’m speaking specifically about Xcode, Final Cut Pro, and Logic. Generic software is generic software and it’s available anywhere. However, if you NEED to run Xcode, Final Cut Pro or Logic Pro, you’re only going to be doing that on a Mac. They’re a few of the small number of things that sets really sets a Mac apart from anything else. Like, if you HATE the Mac, but still want to make money making games for iOS, you’re going to have a Mac because you need one to run Xcode. However, if Apple says that you no longer have to be limited to the finite number of Mac Pro’s they make… you could build a MONSTER of a Windows machine, and configure it such that it flies through FCP, compiles Xcode faster or handles far more simultaneous tracks in Logic with the ADDED bonus of being able to upgrade the CPU/GPU to whatever you want whenever you want, there are a LOT of folks that would be very tempted to build their own dream Pro Apple App machine, especially if supported by Apple. I’m saying that IF Apple makes such an announcement, like when they announced the end of FCP7, it doesn’t really matter anymore what the fans want, Apple will have made their decision about the future of their Pro Apps (not Mac only anymore) and it’s clear that the handwriting would be on the wall.

Oh, I understood, people that grew up with a Mac will generally prefer a Mac over any other option. MILLIONS of folks grew up with a Mac. What I’M saying is that millions upon millions more are NOT growing up with a Mac. The Mac and even PC way of working is completely foreign to them. Expecting that those folks would prefer a Mac is like expecting mouse computer users to choose a command line driven system. So Windows folks won’t want a Mac, iPad users won’t want a Mac (unless they need Xcode, FCP or Logic which the vast majority will never need), the only people wanting Macs will be folks that have used Macs before. And, 20 years from now, a lot of those Mac users won’t be buying Macs anymore either.

It isn't that hard to run macOS on non-Macs these days. In the past, you used VirtualBox or VMware but KVM/QEMU has gotten really good so that you can run macOS on near-bare-metal Linux. There are examples of system with better performance than any possible existing Mac systems.

 

[ArPe]

- I still have a feeling Apple will lock down Mac OS like IOS, and if that happens... it's dead to me. But if the EU do change the law to make it so Apple has to allow sideloading on IOS, that might never happen.

They’re not going to do that to macOS and there are no plans to. Even installing brew isn’t going away.

The only way Apple and Microsoft would ever do that is if there was a very large scale malware attack that infected all software developers via some kind of CPU vector attack or back door. A kind of attack that would make all software suddenly exposed to infection.

In the last 24 hours 200 American companies using a supply chain software were infected by a ransomware attack.

Phones are super risky devices and if any regulator or lobbyist tries to force sideloading on to phones they should be watched by the NSA for connections to organized crime or tech-based cartels who want to grab your data or steal your money in a sudden economy wide attack. People who are found guilty for that kind of thing should be punished no matter who they are.

 

[scaramoosh]

They’re not going to do that to macOS and there are no plans to. Even installing brew isn’t going away.

The only way Apple and Microsoft would ever do that is if there was a very large scale malware attack that infected all software developers via some kind of CPU vector attack or back door. A kind of attack that would make all software suddenly exposed to infection.

In the last 24 hours 200 American companies using a supply chain software were infected by a ransomware attack.

Phones are super risky devices and if any regulator or lobbyist tries to force sideloading on to phones they should be watched by the NSA for connections to organized crime or tech-based cartels who want to grab your data or steal your money in a sudden economy wide attack. People who are found guilty for that kind of thing should be punished no matter who they are.

I just don't buy this argument, the sky isn't falling on Android. The only reason it's a big issue on Windows is a legacy thing....

For me it's about freedom, and I don't want Apple telling me what I can and cannot install. We've already seen what happens with Parler and Fortnite, they can just take stuff away from you. It even happens with older apps that do not get updates, on other platforms someone will make a fan patch.... but this isn't possible on IOS.

I think the EU will eventually force side loading on IOS, and it'll be a good thing like it is on Android.

 

[ArPe]

I just don't buy this argument, the sky isn't falling on Android. The only reason it's a big issue on Windows is a legacy thing....

You’re looking at only the sample size data you have chosen to look at.

Very small section of Android users bother with sideloading and a much larger percentage of them experience malware and theft compared to those who don’t sideload.

It only takes two brain cells to understand that there are many parties out there who want your deepest and most private data, those parties are a mix of technologists and criminal networks who gather data from multiple sources to build profiles on people. Super dangerous stuff that has already caused so much harm.

You want this to be the norm? OK let’s leap into the future and see what this does.

A billion young people sideloading apps on their phones. Young people tend to make mistakes. Even adults do. They send sexts, they share pictures of their bodies with their girlfriends and boyfriends. They sync their contact lists with their social media apps unaware that the platforms use that data to see connections across multiple platforms.

Out of those billion young people sideloading apps, let’s say only 10% install apps that bypass their security to grab data without permission - 100 million installs of malware. That’s a conservative number.

The apps take your photos, contacts, and messages. Over time these apps build detailed histories of the users containing very private even embarrassing information. Facebook etc already does this awful stuff so imagine how bad it could be if some unknown developers have apps that go viral. We already see in the crypto space things that go viral and end up stealing millions of dollars.

So now flash forward a decade more. Those young people are grown up now. Some of them want to work for corporations and some want to work as civil servants or run for office.

One day they get an email out of the blue containing a lot of compromising information. Sexts, nude photos, information about family.

The recipient is compromised. Their whole career in the corporate world or in government is in danger unless they accept demands from the blackmailer. The demands could be for information, it could be for a lot of money, or put the recipient in the hands of a dangerous foreign government or terrorist group.

Scenarios like this have probably already happened if you look at how some people are behaving. This should not become the norm otherwise it jeopardizes democracy, responsible behavior in corporate and government sectors, national security.

Sideloading on a phone has zero benefits on a phone and a lot of risks and downsides. Don’t tell me you definitely need it. Every app you need is available on app stores and even with that delivery system there are still risks as people have experienced because unscrupulous developers always try to cheat and game the system.

For me it's about freedom, and I don't want Apple telling me what I can and cannot install.

You are free it’s your mental conditioning with this libertarian bull ? that is imprisoning your ability to see clearly. Your phone’s operating system however belongs to Apple and they are legally bound to protect users because if users are compromised in a very bad way then the law suits fall on Apple.

 

[Jorbanead]

I’M saying is that millions upon millions more are NOT growing up with a Mac.

This has always been true. Show me stats that show how the Mac is going away with the younger generation in comparison to 5-10 years ago.

You are assuming my age. And assume I don’t interact with 17 year olds.

 

[pshufd]

This has always been true. Show me stats that show how the Mac is going away with the younger generation in comparison to 5-10 years ago.

You are assuming my age. And assume I don’t interact with 17 year olds.

Hang out on the Mac Reddit forum and you run into lots of teenagers. I see a lot of them asking which Mac they should get for college. Or asking how to do basic things. A lot of people use Reddit for tech support. My Karma is 2,900 so I obviously answer a lot of questions.