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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
It isn't that hard to run macOS on non-Macs these days. In the past, you used VirtualBox or VMware but KVM/QEMU has gotten really good so that you can run macOS on near-bare-metal Linux. There are examples of system with better performance than any possible existing Mac systems.

Yes, and very few smart businesspeople are going to rest the future of their company on a hardware/software configuration that’s unsupported. Hackintosh is never going to be a motivator for migration for a lot of folks with critical work to be done regardless of power (fun thing to tinker with though). However, an Apple supported Pro software suite MIGHT be.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
This has always been true. Show me stats that show how the Mac is going away with the younger generation in comparison to 5-10 years ago.

You are assuming my age. And assume I don’t interact with 17 year olds.
No, I’m not assuming your age. It doesn’t matter how old you are, in 80 years from now, you’re very likely not going to be powering Apple’s Mac revenues by buying Macs. Very few people alive today are going to be. If Apple continues selling half of their Macs to folks that have never bought a Mac before, then they’re good, doesn’t matter if those users are young or old. Because they will VERY likely be in contact with at least one or more other people that might also buy a Mac. If they ever:
Stop reporting that number and/or
Release previously Mac only applications for any non-Mac platform
You will know what you need to know about the future of the Mac, regardless of age.

Hang out on the Mac Reddit forum and you run into lots of teenagers. I see a lot of them asking which Mac they should get for college. Or asking how to do basic things. A lot of people use Reddit for tech support. My Karma is 2,900 so I obviously answer a lot of questions.
If you hang out in almost any reddit forum (other than, maybe, those specifically related to age?) you’re going to find a good number of teenagers. It’s a self selecting sample. Just like there are millions of developers, FCP users, Logic Pro users, Xcode users and folks that just like the Mac in the world today, there are millions of teenagers using Macs today. However, unit sales analysis of the iPad show that there’s very likely FAR more millions using Apple devices that aren’t Macs.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Yes, and very few smart businesspeople are going to rest the future of their company on a hardware/software configuration that’s unsupported. Hackintosh is never going to be a motivator for migration for a lot of folks with critical work to be done regardless of power (fun thing to tinker with though). However, an Apple supported Pro software suite MIGHT be.

It's not a Hackintosh - it's running macOS in a virtual machine. It's a lot easier than a Hackintosh as all of the configuration is done for you. Quite similar to running Windows in a Parallels Virtual Machine. It's actually quite nice to use as a stopgap until Apple releases M1X products.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
If you hang out in almost any reddit forum (other than, maybe, those specifically related to age?) you’re going to find a good number of teenagers. It’s a self selecting sample. Just like there are millions of developers, FCP users, Logic Pro users, Xcode users and folks that just like the Mac in the world today, there are millions of teenagers using Macs today. However, unit sales analysis of the iPad show that there’s very likely FAR more millions using Apple devices that aren’t Macs.

There are a lot of devices out there.

I think that Macs sales will continue to grow and I've placed a large wager on it.
 

MrGunny94

macrumors 65816
Dec 3, 2016
1,148
675
Malaga, Spain
There are a lot of devices out there.

I think that Macs sales will continue to grow and I've placed a large wager on it.
For casual users, the Air is a great price especially on sale when you can get it for 900-945€ at least where I live. You cannot get a computer with such a great screen at that price range in the PC land....
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
For casual users, the Air is a great price especially on sale when you can get it for 900-945€ at least where I live. You cannot get a computer with such a great screen at that price range in the PC land....

I've seen many videos of people that use the Air for production. I could see doing that myself and I like the Air (daughter has one) but I'd want multiple external monitor support and I prefer larger screens. The Air is a big seller locally. I can see inventory moving in and out day by day at local stores.
 

MrGunny94

macrumors 65816
Dec 3, 2016
1,148
675
Malaga, Spain
I've seen many videos of people that use the Air for production. I could see doing that myself and I like the Air (daughter has one) but I'd want multiple external monitor support and I prefer larger screens. The Air is a big seller locally. I can see inventory moving in and out day by day at local stores.
I also have the same issue with multiple screens. On my desk I have a 34" Ultrawide and a 27" 16:9 Dell screen, it saddens me to have one of the monitors turned off, that's why I'm looking forward to upgrade to the new Air.

However I'd rather have one screen off than having to suffer what I suffered with my 16" at 70c and always stuttering.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,146
1,902
Anchorage, AK
Could be that the market evaporates long before macOS is locked down. The question is only how far do sales need to drop before they just stop making them?
Given that Mac sales grew by 16% in FY 2020 as a whole (and 45% in Q4 2020 alone), it is more likely that some game developers take another look at the Mac as a legitimate alternative to Windows than it is for Apple to "just stop making them".
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
I also have the same issue with multiple screens. On my desk I have a 34" Ultrawide and a 27" 16:9 Dell screen, it saddens me to have one of the monitors turned off, that's why I'm looking forward to upgrade to the new Air.

However I'd rather have one screen off than having to suffer what I suffered with my 16" at 70c and always stuttering.

This is why I got a Mini. It would be really great to have a computer that could do double duty but not this time. I do look forward to an M1X 16 and I can be patient now that I have the Mini. I will continue to use my 2014 and 2015 for mobile use.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Given that Mac sales grew by 16% in FY 2020 as a whole (and 45% in Q4 2020 alone), it is more likely that some game developers take another look at the Mac as a legitimate alternative to Windows than it is for Apple to "just stop making them".

Cloud providers are selling macOS in the cloud as well indicating more than just consumer interest in the platform.
 
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dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,146
1,902
Anchorage, AK
Cloud providers are selling macOS in the cloud as well indicating more than just consumer interest in the platform.
I know of a few that are using Mac Minis (mainly Intel, but most are slowly switching over to the M1 because of the massive energy savings compared to Intel-based systems) as the basis for their entire server farms...
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
For me it's about freedom, and I don't want Apple telling me what I can and cannot install.

This has nothing to do with freedom, it’s just a product that does not have a feature you are looking for. Apple is not violating any laws or rights by selling you a curated experience. If you don’t like what they are selling, don’t buy it.

We've already seen what happens with Parler and Fortnite, they can just take stuff away from you.

Because both of them broke their contractual obligation with Apple. By the way, Parler has fixed their issues and now they are back on the iOS.

I think the EU will eventually force side loading on IOS, and it'll be a good thing like it is on Android.

I would have no problem with that, provided that the side-loaded apps will be properly isolated from the rest of the system and would have no access to the security-critical features such as location services, Secure Enclave, camera or microphone.
 

MrGunny94

macrumors 65816
Dec 3, 2016
1,148
675
Malaga, Spain
This is why I got a Mini. It would be really great to have a computer that could do double duty but not this time. I do look forward to an M1X 16 and I can be patient now that I have the Mini. I will continue to use my 2014 and 2015 for mobile use.
Yeah I understand your approach, sadly I wanted a remote machine as I already have a Gaming Desktop running POP OS and dual boot Windows for games.

However having the Air with it's great portability won me over an Air or iMac
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
It's not a Hackintosh - it's running macOS in a virtual machine. It's a lot easier than a Hackintosh as all of the configuration is done for you. Quite similar to running Windows in a Parallels Virtual Machine. It's actually quite nice to use as a stopgap until Apple releases M1X products.
Ah, I misunderstood. Does Apple support the configuration? Because that’s what it really comes down to not only for support, but legally as well. While I’m kinda sure Apple’s not going to be going after anyone running one or two virtualized instances of their software, if there’s no license for it, that’s still putting the company in a legal gray area. I know my company would never even try to use anything like that in a production manner.
 
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Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
There are a lot of devices out there.

I think that Macs sales will continue to grow and I've placed a large wager on it.
Aside from last year, they’ve stagnated in a band between, I think, 15 to 20 million units a year. If the unit sales for this year falls in between that band, then the stagnation continues.

My money is only on Apple as a whole. Macs could disappear tomorrow, but if the company still meets targets, I’ll be fine :)
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
Given that Mac sales grew by 16% in FY 2020 as a whole (and 45% in Q4 2020 alone), it is more likely that some game developers take another look at the Mac as a legitimate alternative to Windows than it is for Apple to "just stop making them".
Everything that happened regarding sales in 2020 was an anomaly, though :) Developers will only look at releasing Mac games if someone makes it dead easy to port. That is, unless Apple starts selling, say, at least half as many systems as PC systems over a sustained period. THAT Would be enough sales to make them risk the effort because the potential to sell enough to make back the development costs would be very high with that many systems out there.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Ah, I misunderstood. Does Apple support the configuration? Because that’s what it really comes down to not only for support, but legally as well. While I’m kinda sure Apple’s not going to be going after anyone running one or two virtualized instances of their software, if there’s no license for it, that’s still putting the company in a legal gray area. I know my company would never even try to use anything like that in a production manner.

Most companies don't allow you to use software that's unlicensed. But work isn't your whole life.

It's a good workaround for a lot of things:

- Learning xcode
- Building a tool that can only be built on a Mac
- Personal work
- Trading
- Doing homework
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Aside from last year, they’ve stagnated in a band between, I think, 15 to 20 million units a year. If the unit sales for this year falls in between that band, then the stagnation continues.

My money is only on Apple as a whole. Macs could disappear tomorrow, but if the company still meets targets, I’ll be fine :)

I own 5,000 shares of AAPL and I think that they have a lot of growth ahead of them.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
Radeon Pro 580 in my 2017 iMac is much much better on paper than the M1 gpu. However when I edit photos on the M1 Air of my girlfriend, it's much much faster than editing them on my iMac. It's not even comparable. I just don't get how this small machine is this fast.
It's all about GPU use case. For me, that's does it run WoW in enough detail to not piss off my wife? The answer is wholeheartedly YES so kudos to Apple for building a marriage saving device!
 

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
2,424
Aside from last year, they’ve stagnated in a band between, I think, 15 to 20 million units a year. If the unit sales for this year falls in between that band, then the stagnation continues.

My money is only on Apple as a whole. Macs could disappear tomorrow, but if the company still meets targets, I’ll be fine :)

Everything that happened regarding sales in 2020 was an anomaly, though :) Developers will only look at releasing Mac games if someone makes it dead easy to port. That is, unless Apple starts selling, say, at least half as many systems as PC systems over a sustained period. THAT Would be enough sales to make them risk the effort because the potential to sell enough to make back the development costs would be very high with that many systems out there.
It doesn’t matter how many ? you add, your argument is still baseless and completely disconnected from reality.

There is no realistic scenario in which the Mac gets locked like iOS.

Irrefutable facts:
1. The Mac has enjoyed its best sales jump ever.
2. the Apple silicon switch has people excited for the Mac again
3. Apple has been putting more resources into the Mac in the past year than they have in the past decade.
4. They have gone on record multiple times saying the Mac will be the same open platform as it always has

Now, in some insane scenario like you describe, in which the Mac sales dwindle, Apple and any sane, rational company, would not put forth any effort to somehow “trap” the remaining users (on the contrary, people would just NOT update their Mac if Apple did so) they would just discontinue it. Because discontinuing a non-profitable business is much more cost effective than pretending you’re Dick Dastardly and setting some “clever trap.”

A trap that mind you, would not work because in reality, people can choose whether or not to update their OS.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
Most companies don't allow you to use software that's unlicensed. But work isn't your whole life.

It's a good workaround for a lot of things:

- Learning xcode
- Building a tool that can only be built on a Mac
- Personal work
- Trading
- Doing homework
Oh, you’re right, most definitely. I was just saying that macOS market share’s not going to grow significantly from virtualization or hackintoshes or any non licensed formal way, that’s all.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
I own 5,000 shares of AAPL and I think that they have a lot of growth ahead of them.
They do have a lot of growth in ALLL kinds of areas. Maybe not so much the Mac area, but it doesn’t matter, you’ll make a good return even IF Mac marketshare drops!
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,522
19,679
Oh, you’re right, most definitely. I was just saying that macOS market share’s not going to grow significantly from virtualization or hackintoshes or any non licensed formal way, that’s all.

MacOS market share is fine where it is. Apple got a big chunk of the premium market (and is likely to get a bigger one in the coming years) and they don’t care about the cheap PC market anyway.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
There is no realistic scenario in which the Mac gets locked like iOS.
That wasn’t my point. My point is that the Mac could go away long before anyone cares about whether or not it’s locked down. Like, people are so concerned about the Mac getting locked down when they SHOULD be concerned about the Mac being discontinued :)
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,629
MacOS market share is fine where it is. Apple got a big chunk of the premium market (and is likely to get a bigger one in the coming years) and they don’t care about the cheap PC market anyway.
Oh, as long as they keep selling half of their devices to folks that have never used a Mac before, then it’s fine. If they ever get to the point where they’re only selling Macs to folks that have owned Macs before, eventually that spiral will run itself out.
 
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