In 3 years, 50% of all computers capable of playing AAA games will be Macs

[Homy]

WRONG

The video I attached shows that M1 Max at 2K or 1440P usually stays around 60~70 FPS while mobile RTX 3070ti stays around 120 FPS. Do you really think adding 2 more GPU cores with different GPU architecture improve the GPU performance dramatically? I highly doubt it. M1 Max was not even close to Mobile RTX 3070ti instead of mobile RTX 3060. Might be close to mobile RTX 3070ti but guess what? It's not even 5nm+ based. Nvidia has RTX 40 series which is based on TSMC 5nm, not 5nm+ or 4nm. As a result, the gaming performance is still bad compared to Nvidia. Dont say the power consumption is much lower, the gamers only care about the performance.

Also, M2 Max's performance from Andru Edward's video is totally MISLEADING and not comparable. He shot his video while he is playing INSIDE the castle or house. It's much easier to get higher FPS since there aren't many objects to render compared to outside. That's how he got higher FPS which is meaningless. Created Tech's video compared exactly at the same outdoor location to compare each other which is more reliable testing. If you wanna prove me wrong, bring me a video of M2 Max testing outdoor location of RE8 or exactly identical location of M1 Max's testing which right after the early stage where Ethen Winter is heading to the village. Otherwise, M2 Max's video that you mentioned is not a proof.

And benchmark doesn't really prove anything. The real life testing such as playing game is much more reliable.

It seems that it’s very important to you to be right, but this is not about being right or wrong, it’s about facts. Yet you keep missing important details and discuss old and irrelevant information about M1 Max and RTX 40.

Again, I shared a video about M2 Max 38c with actual numbers but you keep discussing the old M1 Max and how ”slow” it was and base your assumptions on that. It’s quite boring to hang on to the past to try to prove a point when we’re discussing the new M2 chips. Try to provide some new results when they’re available. I’m not interested in M1 Max results.

2 more cores? The M2 Max in the video has 38 GPU cores, 6 more than the M1 Max in your video. Other details to consider are the faster GPU/CPU cores. M1 Max has slower GPU cores and its CPU has 3.2GHz clock speed, M2 Max 3.68GHz. It’s been discussed that M1 has CPU bottleneck in some games.

It appears that Apple has also solved some of the problems with its GPU scaling. M2 Max 38c is as fast or faster in Blender and games compared to M1 Ultra 64c.

I’m well aware of the performance difference indoors and outdoors. For that reason I provided both lower and higher fps. If it can do 90 indoors it’s not surprising if it can do 60 outdoors. That’s also why I made a comparison at its best and worst with 3070 Ti and 3060 Ti. I also compared the 4K performance which is more demanding, not 1440p you keep referring to.

So if we consider all the details like more and faster GPU cores, faster CPU and better GPU scaling comparable to M1 Ultra the result is not at all that surprising.

Benchmarking tools don’t prove everything but they prove some things since they can be used on both Mac and PC. GFXBench and 3dMark Wildlife Extreme are fairly optimized for both platforms and therefore give a good comparison. Even overclockers and PC guys recommend 3DMark. UL Solutions themselves have developed the tool with the cross-platform comparison in mind and say you can compare the Mac and PC scores directly. Tom’s guide gets 21,420 in 3DMark Wildlife Extreme on MBP 14” M2 Max 38c. That is comparable to desktop RTX 2080 or GTX 1080 Ti or mobile 3070, 3070 Ti or even 3080 according to their charts.

If you don’t believe in benchmarking tools then you should tell all PC advocates here and at AMD/Intel to stop using such numbers. We don’t have to wait long though. Both MrMacRight and Andrew Tsai are going to test the new machines in gaming.

In the end it doesn’t matter at all because I’m not going to buy a PC and you’re not going to buy a Mac, especially for gaming. I didn’t even compare M2 to any Nvidia/AMD/Intel GPU. You’re the one who had to dig up an old video, which wasn’t even relevant to M2, to point out that PC is superior to Mac, like many times before in your previous discussions.

 

[sunny5]

Again, I shared a video about M2 Max 38c with actual numbers but you keep discussing the old M1 Max and how ”slow” it was and base your assumptions on that. It’s quite boring to hang on to the past to try to prove a point when we’re discussing the new M2 chips. Try to provide some new results when they’re available. I’m not interested in M1 Max results.

Then what's the point of your misleading video? Getting high FPS for indoor with M2 Max vs low FPS for outdoor with M1 Max is a fair comparison? If you wanna argue about that, test both M1 Max and M2 max on a same game at a same location.

The point is Mac gaming performance still sucks compared to Nvidia RTX 30 series which is not even 5nm based as you keep ignoring that from the beginning and I dont need to hear your misleading information by showing meaningless benchmark scores which doesn't even represent actual performance.

"Capcom (RE Village), Hello Games (No Man's Sky), Codemasters (Grid Legends), Larian Studios (Baldur's Gate 3), 4A Games (Metro Trilogy), Eidos/Crystal Dynamics (Tomb Raider Trilogy, Deus Ex) and other devs seem to disagree."
And I asked again, is that all? Most of them released several years ago. Baldur's Gate 3 might be only new game but that's only one then compared to a lot of games available from PC.

So it's been almost 3 years and yet only few native games are available for Apple Silicon Mac which proves that Mac sucks for gaming.

 

[Homy]

Then what's the point of your misleading video? Getting high FPS for indoor with M2 Max vs low FPS for outdoor with M1 Max is a fair comparison? If you wanna argue about that, test both M1 Max and M2 max on a same game at a same location.

The point is Mac gaming performance still sucks compared to Nvidia RTX 30 series which is not even 5nm based as you keep ignoring that from the beginning and I dont need to hear your misleading information by showing meaningless benchmark scores which doesn't even represent actual performance.

"Capcom (RE Village), Hello Games (No Man's Sky), Codemasters (Grid Legends), Larian Studios (Baldur's Gate 3), 4A Games (Metro Trilogy), Eidos/Crystal Dynamics (Tomb Raider Trilogy, Deus Ex) and other devs seem to disagree."
And I asked again, is that all? Most of them released several years ago. Baldur's Gate 3 might be only new game but that's only one then compared to a lot of games available from PC.

So it's been almost 3 years and yet only few native games are available for Apple Silicon Mac which proves that Mac sucks for gaming.

There we have it again, the same motives behind every discussion of yours leading to the same conclusion, ”Macs suck for gaming” and the same reason I stopped discussing with you a while back. I knew exactly where this was going and you just couldn’t resist it. It’s so bad it almost gets funny sometimes. You’re also so eager to prove your point that you keep twisting other people’s words and even your own words so much that nothing makes sense anymore.

There is nothing misleading about the video I shared. It shows a guy testing the beginning of RE Village taking place indoors on a M2 Max 38c. That’s the only test out there at the moment. How can that be misleading and confusing for a PC gamer like you? I mean people are not blind and dumb and can see for themselves. You’re acting like I’ve been trying to hide some government secrets.

The point of posting the video is obvious, to share new information about the new M2 Macs and their performance. If you find the video misleading that is your problem, complain to Andru Edwards.

You’re the one who engaged in a discussion with me to spread your message again about ”Macs suck for gaming”.

You’re the one comparing M1 Max and M2 Max and you ask me if it’s a fair comparison?? I didn’t even compare M2 Max to anything, just posted the new benchmarks.

You’re the one trying to say M2 Max sucks for gaming because M1 Max did, before even having a ”fair” comparison?

If you ”don’t need to hear your misleading information” then why do you start a discussion? Why just not ignore my post that didn’t even address you? I guess then you wouldn’t have the chance to once again say ”Macs suck”.

”Meaningless benchmark scores which doesn’t even represent actual performance”? You’re the one ignoring acknowledged benchmarking tools like 3DMark. Are you suggesting the reviewer just made up those M2 benchmarks and played an imaginary version of RE Village? Did Matthew Moniz published meaningless benchmarks not representing the actual performance in SotTR and Deus Ex MKD showing M2 Max 38c being as fast as M1 Ultra 64c or even beating it?

So let me ask you the same question, what’s the point of your discussion? You say ”Dont say the power consumption is much lower, the gamers only care about the performance.” So true gamers are not the ones interested in these new Macs and aren’t the ones coming here to a Mac forum for advice. They hang out in PC forums, meaning you can’t be a true gamer either, wasting your time here.

Are you then trying to make Mac owners/gamers to switch by spreading your message ”Macs suck”? Have you had any luck? Can’t imagine, wrong place considering this is a dedicated Mac forum and the majority is well informed about the advantages and limitations of their Macs.

Are you trying to convert new Mac owners? Little too late in that case since they’ve already bought their Mac. Are you trying to stop PC owners before they switch to Mac? The majority of them are aware of what Macs can/can’t do so it too feels like a wasted effort.

At last the only reason left is that personal satisfaction of feeling superior by spreading the message of ”Macs suck” and judging by your widespread posts across the forum about the subject I can’t think of any other reason.

Regarding ”only few native games are available for Apple Silicon” you keep twisting my words to win some points. I wasn’t talking about ”native games” in my list. Any real gamer and Mac owner can see that. Read the original post again if you didn’t get it. Here is a much longer list of native Apple Silicon games. Still some games are missing there, like Grid Legends, NMS and SimCity 4 Deluxe.

You asked for actual performance? Andrew Tsai just published a quick video where M2 Max 38c gets 117 fps at 1080 high in Shadow of the Tomb Raider, a non-native game running in Rosetta. According to Notebookcheck that’s as fast as a desktop RTX 2080 or GTX 1080 Ti, 4% slower than mobile 3080 or 8% slower than mobile 3070 Ti. That is almost the same result found in 3dMark Wildlife Extreme which shows its accuracy. Still SotTR is not a native app. If you still think that sucks make your life easier and go where gaming doesn’t suck.

 

[Nugat Trailers]

Then what's the point of your misleading video? Getting high FPS for indoor with M2 Max vs low FPS for outdoor with M1 Max is a fair comparison? If you wanna argue about that, test both M1 Max and M2 max on a same game at a same location.

The point is Mac gaming performance still sucks compared to Nvidia RTX 30 series which is not even 5nm based as you keep ignoring that from the beginning and I dont need to hear your misleading information by showing meaningless benchmark scores which doesn't even represent actual performance.

"Capcom (RE Village), Hello Games (No Man's Sky), Codemasters (Grid Legends), Larian Studios (Baldur's Gate 3), 4A Games (Metro Trilogy), Eidos/Crystal Dynamics (Tomb Raider Trilogy, Deus Ex) and other devs seem to disagree."
And I asked again, is that all? Most of them released several years ago. Baldur's Gate 3 might be only new game but that's only one then compared to a lot of games available from PC.

So it's been almost 3 years and yet only few native games are available for Apple Silicon Mac which proves that Mac sucks for gaming.

Dear god. You seem to be one of those odd individuals that froth and foam at the mouth whenever Mac gaming is mentioned.

1. A goddamn LOT of GPUs suck compare to the RTX 30 series. So what? Are you going to buy each and every person a RTX 3080?

2. Do all games have to be AAA? Can't you just play Vampire Survivors or one of the many, many other charming indie titles out there?

3. You seem to be leaving out the less appealing AAA titles, too. Balam Wonderworld springs to mind. Is that something that is needed for Macs to be better at gaming?

4. What... WAS the last Mac game you played, exactly, and when did you play it? You seem reluctant to answer that very simple question.

 

[diamond.g]

@Ethosik what % would macOS need to have in Steam before you would officially support/port your game (that you've claims already works fine) on macOS?

 

[Irishman]

No matter how many people buy and use IOS to play games, they can't prove that they (MAC and NS) are suitable for playing AAA games, because their hardware structure determines that they can't be as easy as professional game consoles or game computers, because they are hard inserted in too narrow places with a variety of chips with high heat capacity, which will lead to heat dissipation problems and machine damage problems. They are not bought to play games, which is a problem of positioning.
Even 7 billion people can't change the fact that they are not real AAA game consoles. Note, I didn't say they can't play. Both NS and MAC can install and play AAA games, but they are not suitable.
This is also why many developers are not willing to develop high-quality games for them, because the cost of maintenance and optimization is too high.

So, have you played any Mac games?

At all?

Have you heard of a tiny game called “Fortnite”? It’s one of those great games that allows cross platform multiplayer that my sons and I have played together (they on their consoles and me on my Mac)!

If you go back and reread my post, you’ll notice that I am not defending the Nintendo Switch, because I have no experience with it myself.
It seems like you aren’t quite sure what point I’m making about the Nintendo Switch, so you’re struggling a bit with how to take me down.

Maybe you could stop trying to take me down?

And maybe stop judging the gaming experience of others who make different choices than you have.

I do have experience and great memories of PC gaming, as well as console gaming on the Xbox and the PS5. I also have great memories of Mac gaming.

Isn’t gaming really about having fun, regardless of what hardware powers it?

 

[Ethosik]

@Ethosik what % would macOS need to have in Steam before you would officially support/port your game (that you've claims already works fine) on macOS?

To make it a priority? More than Windows. That simple. Now after I finish the game entirely and I want to make a port a year or two after launch? Maybe 20%?

 

[diamond.g]

So, have you played any Mac games?

At all?

Have you heard of a tiny game called “Fortnite”? It’s one of those great games that allows cross platform multiplayer that my sons and I have played together (they on their consoles and me on my Mac)!

If you go back and reread my post, you’ll notice that I am not defending the Nintendo Switch, because I have no experience with it myself.
It seems like you aren’t quite sure what point I’m making about the Nintendo Switch, so you’re struggling a bit with how to take me down.

Maybe you could stop trying to take me down?

And maybe stop judging the gaming experience of others who make different choices than you have.

I do have experience and great memories of PC gaming, as well as console gaming on the Xbox and the PS5. I also have great memories of Mac gaming.

Isn’t gaming really about having fun, regardless of what hardware powers it?

Wait Fortnite on macOS is now on the latest release?

To make it a priority? More than Windows. That simple. Now after I finish the game entirely and I want to make a port a year or two after launch? Maybe 20%?

So like another ten years, lol?

 

[sunny5]

Dear god. You seem to be one of those odd individuals that froth and foam at the mouth whenever Mac gaming is mentioned.

1. A goddamn LOT of GPUs suck compare to the RTX 30 series. So what? Are you going to buy each and every person a RTX 3080?

We are talking about the GPU released in a same or similar period of time. Apple is the one who directly compared their M1 series to RTX 30 series.

2. Do all games have to be AAA? Can't you just play Vampire Survivors or one of the many, many other charming indie titles out there?

Still lack a lot of games and Apple isn't trying. That's a fact. Stop ignoring that.

3. You seem to be leaving out the less appealing AAA titles, too. Balam Wonderworld springs to mind. Is that something that is needed for Macs to be better at gaming?

Lack of latest games proves that Mac is far for the gaming industry and this is why PC gamers laugh at Mac users. Dreaming about Mac gaming is just an illusion after all.

4. What... WAS the last Mac game you played, exactly, and when did you play it? You seem reluctant to answer that very simple question.

There is none as Mac lack latest games. I play games on PC and consoles where I can buy and play latest, popular, and newest games. Beside, Apple's true interest is the mobile gaming as they gain way more profits. Dont expect anything to play PC/Console games on Mac.

 

[Irishman]

To make it a priority? More than Windows. That simple. Now after I finish the game entirely and I want to make a port a year or two after launch? Maybe 20%?

😂

Maybe it will. You won’t know until you offer it for sale on the Mac. You could have the next big thing, that makes you have to hire 100 more people, just to support it on the backend.

 

[Nugat Trailers]

We are talking about the GPU released in a same or similar period of time. Apple is the one who directly compared their M1 series to RTX 30 series.

Then go tell Apple off. They have a feedback section.

Still lack a lot of games and Apple isn't trying. That's a fact. Stop ignoring that.

I haven't.

Lack of latest games proves that Mac is far for the gaming industry and this is why PC gamers laugh at Mac users. Dreaming about Mac gaming is just an illusion after all.
There is none as Mac lack latest games. I play games on PC and consoles where I can buy and play latest, popular, and newest games. Beside, Apple's true interest is the mobile gaming as they gain way more profits. Dont expect anything to play PC/Console games on Mac.

How sad.

How very, very sad. You ignore excellent titles. Vampire Survivors. Hades. TABS. Trombone Champ. Inscyption. Factorio. Psychonauts 2. Stacklands. Wildermyth. Cult of the Lamb. Timberborn. Prodeus. Loop Hero. Citizen Sleeper. TUNIC.

You're so obsessed with triple A, with PC gaming, you seem unable to understand the simple fact.

That people will play games on anything. A PC, a Mac, a Switch. An iPhone. A fridge. A toaster. There's probably a breed of domestic cat that can run Doom natively, it runs on everything else.

Mac gaming isn't anywhere near as large as PC gaming. That makes the quality of titles no less solid. If a developer has success on PC and goes 'Hey, we've had quite a number of requests for a Mac version', then it should at least be worth the time for them to look into a Mac port. A smaller market is still a market, plus it can open the way to iOS versions. To get publisher attention.

I daresay you'll have some 'epic' response written up soon after, which ignores the points entirely.

 

[diamond.g]

Then go tell Apple off. They have a feedback section.

I haven't.

How sad.

How very, very sad. You ignore excellent titles. Vampire Survivors. Hades. TABS. Trombone Champ. Inscyption. Factorio. Psychonauts 2. Stacklands. Wildermyth. Cult of the Lamb. Timberborn. Prodeus. Loop Hero. Citizen Sleeper. TUNIC.

You're so obsessed with triple A, with PC gaming, you seem unable to understand the simple fact.

That people will play games on anything. A PC, a Mac, a Switch. An iPhone. A fridge. A toaster. There's probably a breed of domestic cat that can run Doom natively, it runs on everything else.

Mac gaming isn't anywhere near as large as PC gaming. That makes the quality of titles no less solid. If a developer has success on PC and goes 'Hey, we've had quite a number of requests for a Mac version', then it should at least be worth the time for them to look into a Mac port. A smaller market is still a market, plus it can open the way to iOS versions. To get publisher attention.

I daresay you'll have some 'epic' response written up soon after, which ignores the points entirely.

Publishers are going straight to iOS and ignoring macOS (looking at you CoD:Mobile and Assassins Creed).

 

[Ethosik]

Dear god. You seem to be one of those odd individuals that froth and foam at the mouth whenever Mac gaming is mentioned.

1. A goddamn LOT of GPUs suck compare to the RTX 30 series. So what? Are you going to buy each and every person a RTX 3080?

2. Do all games have to be AAA? Can't you just play Vampire Survivors or one of the many, many other charming indie titles out there?

3. You seem to be leaving out the less appealing AAA titles, too. Balam Wonderworld springs to mind. Is that something that is needed for Macs to be better at gaming?

4. What... WAS the last Mac game you played, exactly, and when did you play it? You seem reluctant to answer that very simple question.

Not to mention Elden Ring (GOTY from Game Awards… say what you want about Game Awards but ER is a very popular game) can run just fine on my GTX 1080. I don’t need to play on max settings.

Also, PS5 and Xbox Series X is worse than a 40 series. But nobody would say those “suck” for gaming. Better example is Nintendo Switch. Does that “suck” at gaming?

 

[diamond.g]

Not to mention Elden Ring (GOTY from Game Awards… say what you want about Game Awards but ER is a very popular game) can run just fine on my GTX 1080. I don’t need to play on max settings.

Also, PS5 and Xbox Series X is worse than a 40 series. But nobody would say those “suck” for gaming. Better example is Nintendo Switch. Does that “suck” at gaming?

I think it depends on the game, Fortnite on a Switch may not be as much fun as on a PS5 or XSX.

 

[Ethosik]

So like another ten years, lol?

Probably? There might be wiggle room for lower marketshare from a port perspective. But to focus on it right now - it needs to be higher than Windows. And even on Windows, this game runs just fine on a cheapie laptop from 2013.

 

[Ethosik]

To make it a priority? More than Windows. That simple. Now after I finish the game entirely and I want to make a port a year or two after launch? Maybe 20%?

😂

Maybe it will. You won’t know until you offer it for sale on the Mac. You could have the next big thing, that makes you have to hire 100 more people, just to support it on the backend.

You don’t base ROI on a maybe. I’m guaranteed to have a larger pool of potential buyers on Windows than mac. That is fact.

 

[Ethosik]

I think it depends on the game, Fortnite on a Switch may not be as much fun as on a PS5 or XSX.

Point is it’s ALL MARKETSHARE. Switch got Doom 2016. Mac didn’t. Switch gets way way WAY more ports than mac can dream of. But the hardware of the switch is a complete joke. Far worse than most macs.

 

[diamond.g]

Point is it’s ALL MARKETSHARE. Switch got Doom 2016. Mac didn’t. Switch gets way way WAY more ports than mac can dream of. But the hardware of the switch is a complete joke. Far worse than most macs.

Fair point.

 

[sunny5]

Point is it’s ALL MARKETSHARE. Switch got Doom 2016. Mac didn’t. Switch gets way way WAY more ports than mac can dream of. But the hardware of the switch is a complete joke. Far worse than most macs.

And Mac has no such thins like Nintendo Switch and their franchises.

 

[Ethosik]

Fair point.

As a business man, this all makes sense. I went through the decision myself and why I’m focusing on Windows only. But people just won’t listen.

Not directed at you but all the “Macs suck at gaming” comments. Keep your personal perspective out of this next question (not all gamers want to play at 8K resolution and 500 fps on ultra settings. Just look at the most common Windows GPUs on Steam).

Question: name a game where the barrier to entry to even play it requires a high end GPU - 3070/3080/4080 etc.

Not counting Forspoken which is an absolute joke that even the PS5 can’t run at 1080p 60fps and still looks like a PS3 game, I can’t think of any game with those requirements.

 

[Ethosik]

And Mac has no such thins like Nintendo Switch and their franchises.

I’m not talking about Nintendo franchise. Doom is not owned by Nintendo.

 

[JouniS]

I think the real issue is what we have come to believe a game needs to be goody i.e. immersive realistic graphics, sounds, etc., all of which require a lot of processor power. Not that that doesn't add to enjoyability, but neither is it needed.

There are some cases where better graphics contribute to gameplay. For example, in an open world game, immersiveness is the point. The Witcher 3 wasn't good enough on a 24" 1920x1080 display, so I often used fast travel to get to the destination faster. When I played RDR2 and Cyberpunk 2077 on a 34" 3440x1440 display, graphics quality had crossed a threshold. I rarely used fast travel, because wandering around the world and enjoying the scenery was more rewarding.

 

[diamond.g]

As a business man, this all makes sense. I went through the decision myself and why I’m focusing on Windows only. But people just won’t listen.

Not directed at you but all the “Macs suck at gaming” comments. Keep your personal perspective out of this next question (not all gamers want to play at 8K resolution and 500 fps on ultra settings. Just look at the most common Windows GPUs on Steam).

Question: name a game where the barrier to entry to even play it requires a high end GPU - 3070/3080/4080 etc.

Not counting Forspoken which is an absolute joke that even the PS5 can’t run at 1080p 60fps and still looks like a PS3 game, I can’t think of any game with those requirements.

Boundary recommends a 2060.

 

[sunny5]

I’m not talking about Nintendo franchise. Doom is not owned by Nintendo.

The reason why Doom supports Nintendo is because they have a powerful platform to attract people. A same reason why Mac attracts people for video, photography, music, and more. They have their own franchises or popular games and therefore, Nintendo platform is strong. But does Mac has killer titles? Nope. Platform? Nope.

 

[Irishman]

The reason why Doom supports Nintendo is because they have a powerful platform to attract people. A same reason why Mac attracts people for video, photography, music, and more. They have their own franchises or popular games and therefore, Nintendo platform is strong. But does Mac has killer titles? Nope. Platform? Nope.

Yup! The Mac has killer titles for fans of different genres, including examples already discussed like No Man’s Sky, Resident Evil Village, and Balder’s Gate III! Like fun boomer shooters like Prodeus? Got you covered there, too!