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See the phone jack in this screenshot. That's a button. The "IN" label next to it is not a button. The "My Songs" label is a button. How is any of that obvious?

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A single crop of a single piece of UI that is indeed poorly designed does not make an entire set of other designs Lucifer incarnate.
[doublepost=1498937328][/doublepost]By the way I checked the review of Garageband to see how widespread this terrible confusion is

IMG_0272.jpg

I certainly won’t claim to have read them all but I have read a number of them and have yet to see anyone take to the streets in confusion over a button.
 
I feel like you're missing the point. Garageband is far from the worst offence. It remains a great app. And there is no "terrible confusion" here. It's just a complete waste of the user's time to have to figure this stuff out. There is no reason not to make it obvious what is and what isn't actionable. Garageband doesn't have a terrible UI (although great apps can have poor UIs, so reviews don't necessarily tell the whole story) but the UI has gotten worse due to flat design. Apple is doing tons of UI rework for something that in most cases has zero benefit to the user. Where usability has improved, it happened despite or regardless of the flat UI. This is subjective, but it doesn't even make it look better. Garageband was delightful to look at on iOS and practically begged you to touch and play with it. So did lots of other apps. Most of their UIs weren't composed of fake leather, linen and felt.

garageband-with-audiobus-tracks.jpg


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I feel like you're missing the point. Garageband is far from the worst offence. It remains a great app. And there is no "terrible confusion" here. It's just a complete waste of the user's time to have to figure this stuff out. There is no reason not to make it obvious what is and what isn't a button. Garageband doesn't have a terrible UI (although great apps can have poor UIs, so reviews don't necessarily tell the whole story) but the UI has gotten worse due to flat design. Apple is doing tons of UI rework for something that in most cases has zero benefit to the user. Where usability has improved, it happened despite or regardless of the flat UI. This is subjective, but it doesn't even make it look better. Garageband was delightful to look at on iOS and practically begged you to touch and play with it. So did lots of other apps. Most of their UIs weren't composed of fake leather, linen and felt.

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Are you trying to tell me that the first picture there is clearer or better looking than the second? Because I disagree. Some of the icons (Stop, Play Record) are a bit clearer in the second and the lack of pointless shading and starker color choice on the drumbeat roll make that a bit clearer too. However, I’d say in either case the functional difference is close to zero. I very much prefer the newer look though.
 
Are you trying to tell me that the first picture there is clearer or better looking than the second? Because I disagree. Some of the icons (Stop, Play Record) are a bit clearer in the second and the lack of pointless shading and starker color choice on the drumbeat roll make that a bit clearer too. However, I’d say in either case the functional difference is close to zero. I very much prefer the newer look though.
Funny, looking at it this way, I’m having a hard time differentiating things on the flat version and I can easily make out what is what on the old one.

IMG_3812.PNG
 
Funny, looking at it this way, I’m having a hard time differentiating things on the flat version and I can easily make out what is what on the old one.
It's also a worthwhile exercise to try to use a UI while drunk, tired, distracted, under pressure, with impaired vision, low frustration tolerance and/or no previous knowledge of the app. That's when what seemed like "perfectly usable" UIs become incredibly annoying and annoying UIs completely unusable. Of course, these days Apple throws us a bone by including yet another accessibility option, needlessly increasing the complexity in their code, just so that they can make the UI less accessible by default (again - to whose benefit?!). Too bad many of the accessibility options also make the UI look incredibly ugly as is the case when you enable button shapes for example. It used to be that the UI was both beautiful and accessible by default.

I'm done complaining though.
 
I think it's a fact that iOS now fails in many areas. The new notification center in iOS 11 is a perfect example of bad design. They have to tell you with an arrow and text what to do if you want to see your notifications. The new control center is a mess visually and lacks any hierarchy and it basically forces you to discover hidden menus and functions. Also the widget implementation is stupid as hell. What is the point of having widgets on it's dedicated page? I always thought that widgets are supposed to show information at a glance without me having to open an app. It would be much better to have at least some widgets on home screen for something like a calendar app. I would like to have my Widget Calendar.app on home screen right after I unlock my iPhone and see my events without constantly remember about my events in the upcoming weeks and swipe to the widget page and back. If they really wanted to have widgets in iOS they should've done it like Android.

I don't agree that iOS 6 looked pale. Since iOS 7 it's way over-saturated and cartoonish. Remember when they toned down the messages and phone app icons in iOS 7.1? Steve Jobs said, "design is not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works." I think that now it's more like how it looks than how it works. And it doesn't look great either I think. There are many objective things that are wrong in current Apple designs, you just shouldn't be apologist.

Also, have you seen the Windows Fluent System? They are basically going back to their old Aero design but in a Mac kinda way.
I have. I am a Windows, Xbox, Bing, Office and Skype Insider so I get to see unfinished software. Fluent Design attempts to be flat and modern, while also looking futuristic and simple. It tries to stay away from 3D design, but does kind of a parallax effect that post iOS 7 does on some elements.
 
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I have. I am a Windows, Xbox, Bing, Office and Skype Insider so I get to see unfinished software. Fluent Design attempts to be flat and modern, while also looking futuristic and simple.
Define “modern”
If your definition of modern is what everyone else is doing, then we have already strayed from the pack, or what Apple (used) to believe in.
To be modern you must break the boundaries that the others won’t, and define your own way, giving the consumer market what the others can’t give. You must define your own modern. That’s what Apple used to do in a simple way that was easy to understand. I feel bad that they can’t figure this out when they already did it once.
 
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I have. I am a Windows, Xbox, Bing, Office and Skype Insider so I get to see unfinished software. Fluent Design attempts to be flat and modern, while also looking futuristic and simple. It tries to stay away from 3D design, but does kind of a parallax effect that post iOS 7 does on some elements.
It's not futuristic at all. They're just copying Apple.
 
As for the “some personal preferences that something digital needs to be as stripped down as possible and different from reality because it's digital and not reality“ I didnt say that and I’ve corrected you on that a number of times now. Put the straw man down and step away.

Lighten up Francis. Not everything I said was about you.

However, I’d say in either case the functional difference is close to zero.

Wow so some of us are just making up that we can't tell whether "Live Rock Kit" is actionable like how "My Songs" and "Instruments" are so obviously actionable? And we have no reason for getting annoyed by wondering, trying, losing time experimenting so as to learn the software that no longer almost subconsciously guides you and feels like it just works … Golly!

I have. I am a Windows, Xbox, Bing, Office and Skype Insider so I get to see unfinished software. Fluent Design attempts to be flat and modern, while also looking futuristic and simple. It tries to stay away from 3D design, but does kind of a parallax effect that post iOS 7 does on some elements.

Oh boy here I was kind of looking forward to seeing more of fluent design from an earlier post, now it's sounding like just more change for the sake of change again and much overthinking...futuristic yet modern, easy yet deep, fresh yet familiar (roll out those same marketing phrases in five years at the next reinvention) ....parallax and shadows on white backgrounds since it's so very obviously awful to present........buttons that.....look like.... I can't believe I'm going to say it....look like pressable buttons.....gaahhhh who would think that awful way!

Skype messenger for business has another gem of a UI...improved and modernized to utter crap.
 
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Lighten up Francis. Not everything I said was about you.



Wow so some of us are just making up that we can't tell whether "Live Rock Kit" is actionable like how "My Songs" and "Instruments" are so obviously actionable? And we have no reason for getting annoyed by wondering, trying, losing time experimenting so as to learn the software that no longer almost subconsciously guides you and feels like it just works … Golly!



Oh boy here I was kind of looking forward to seeing more of fluent design from an earlier post, now it's sounding like just more change for the sake of change again and much overthinking...futuristic yet modern, easy yet deep, fresh yet familiar (roll out those same marketing phrases in five years at the next reinvention) ....parallax and shadows on white backgrounds since it's so very obviously awful to present........buttons that.....look like.... I can't believe I'm going to say it....look like pressable buttons.....gaahhhh who would think that awful way!

Skype messenger for business has another gem of a UI...improved and modernized to utter crap.

I’m incredibly bored by this conversation now. As can readily be seen by those GarageBand reviews, by the infants and old people who can use iOS and iOS apps without issue, the OS and its design is not the issue here.
 
I’m incredibly bored by this conversation now. As can readily be seen by those GarageBand reviews, by the infants and old people who can use iOS and iOS apps without issue, the OS and its design is not the issue here.

Do I have to repeat myself? You're right and we are wrong for feeling like we do.
 
Define “modern”
If your definition of modern is what everyone else is doing, then we have already strayed from the pack, or what Apple (used) to believe in.
To be modern you must break the boundaries that the others won’t, and define your own way, giving the consumer market what the others can’t give. You must define your own modern. That’s what Apple used to do in a simple way that was easy to understand. I feel bad that they can’t figure this out when they already did it once.

Modern
(Adjective): characterized by or using the most up-to-date techniques, ideas, or equipment.

(I will no longer be replying to people in this thread as this topic is very subjective and I'm not going to explain why I feel like my opinion is better than yours)
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It's not futuristic at all. They're just copying Apple.
And apple copied Microsoft with the Redesign of Windows 8 with macOS Yosemite.
(I will no longer be replying to people in this thread as this topic is very subjective and I'm not going to explain why I feel like my opinion is better than yours)
 
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Modern
(Adjective): characterized by or using the most up-to-date techniques, ideas, or equipment.
Apple. “Think Different” What I’m getting at: the goal at this point isn’t to do what everyone else is, it’s to figure out what you can do better to make you more appealing, as in defining your own ”modern”. Not the other way around. Copying everyone else makes it look like you are lazy and didn’t even try.

The problem with iOS right now is the fact the the design is getting in the way of the functionality, and it’s really pathetic. It used to be the other way around.
 
At the risk of a whole new tangent....taking a step back, could it be argued that to an extent, perhaps too much is being expected from a mobile UI. I'll acknowledge that the world is moving towards mobile, sure sure sure. But. Now interfaces/UI are being catered to iPhone/iPad/Android to the point where there are noticeable detriments to the desktop experience at times.... Unarguably, the desktop experience allows much "more" such as the ability to hover a mouse over something (and see indications before clicking) as well as more real estate, more storage (and freedom from the dreaded "cloud music" experience Apple keeps shoving down our throats), the ability to quickly type lots of data in vs. tap tap tap and/or dictate.... So I ask....with the obvious physical size & input limitations of mobile, at what point are we expecting too much from mobile devices, resulting in a sometimes too complex mobile experience and then a degraded desktop experience?

Just a question to ponder...

Currently, 4 different actions can result from swiping offscreen to onscreen from top, from bottom, from left, and from right at times...yet bezels are getting smaller (and phones more fragile, which is an entire other design rant), which reduces the ability to easily swipe from an offscreen area onto on-screen if you're one of the conscientious objectors like me who insist on a case to protect the overly-jewelry-delicate $900 iPhone...

Seriously, just a question: Do we need to scrunch down the iMessages text input zone to 10 pixels wide so you can jam in icons for photos, emoticons, artwork, effects, gifs...and soon facebook/instagram/twitter??.....at what point has the pendulum swung too far to where the children are leading the parents around? How long will it continue to be acceptable to expect hotdogs & hamburgers & bratwursts at the company picnic to work equally well in the hamburger bun?
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Well said.



Ha, that comment got me thinking...are we perhaps asking too much by designing something to work on both mouse & touchscreen....I feel like we've replaced our entire silverware set with sporks that have sharp edges....sure you should be able to eat soup, spaghetti, and steak with that one utensil but are you really going to enjoy it as much...and not cut your tongue at every meal?



I wish I could say I saw Fluent after that video. Who made that, some 19 year old intern who drinks 5-hour Energies like water? I couldn't see much since each screen view lasted .5 second. What did they show but a bunch of flashes? I'll look into more later now after that color strobe video.



If Microsoft produces an engaging UI that "just works" like Apple used to, and produces an ecosystem that merges my mobile device, music collection, online account (Apple iCloud) that organizes my mail, contacts, schedules...then I may finally be ready to return to windows/PC and their generally more cost-effective machines. The only thing holding me to Apple is that I *think* their interface & ecosystem works better than Android & Windows...once when my friend who's hard of hearing handed me his Android phone during a volunteer meeting so I could check the voicemail his wife left, it took me 2-3 minutes to figure out how to get to the voicemail area and listen to the message; I still cling to the idea that the Android UI is/was/always will be a a wanna-be to Apple's UI, and perhaps I should have let that go after iOS7 since J.ive changed iOS to mimic the worst of android & Windows phone. And my view of Windows may be outdated as I still cling to visions of the horrible Metro interface and its overly-amateurish white flat design indicators/icons on simple colored squares. I knew I couldn't bare to work with either UI. I'll check out this Fusion. (God, why the names for UI's...Fusion...Material Design...Jony Ive's White Crapatorium UI....how long does anyone think we'll live in this VHS/Betamax world where you can still drive your car from Maker A with a round steering wheel or from Maker B with an octogon wheel....when will there be one universal "best" UI which doesn't need a name. Just do what works, stick with it, and stop making up imagined improvements.) :)



Funny, I detested the signal dots since the moment they appeared. For me they're more hard to differentiate at times between a filled-in and empty dot, they take up more space than the bars did, and I think the ascending-height function of the bars' signal strength was a strong secondary-info-prompt that was very, very useful. I felt the dots were more as part of J.ive's cosmetic changeover than any improvement in function. Interesting that it's the opposite for you!



I hope so. I've kept Mavericks on my 2014 MBAir. I can't stand the look of any OS after Mavericks.
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B I N G O
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Again once again, someone deflects wanting to discuss my main point of: display/conveying of actionable items is still often too watered down, too blurred into the look of info-only text in a post-IOS7 world due to oblitterating buttons & controls in place of colored text, and instead you jump to a critique of skeumorphic graphical training wheels.



The only thing worse than those two items is going too for to the right or left...going too skeumorphic or too "airy, basic, almost context-free..." If the early iOS contacts app (like a physical address book) was too far right, the continued use of all-white too-grey low-contrast-thin-buttonless-font UI is still too far right.

I don't think UI's suffer at all when trying to cater to both desktop and touch interfaces, although we really only have Windows for comparison as no one else is doing this. But 1) I have not felt my desktop experience has suffered in the least in Windows 10, and 2) Not only do I feel that my touchscreen experience has not suffered, it has vastly improved over the past 1-2 years with the refinements being made. It's just me and my personal opinion, but I outright reject any supremacy of iOS because it is more "simple" or because it is first and foremost geared for a touch/mobile environment. I've said it before, that "simplicity" makes iOS more complicated in many ways. Microsoft is further on the right track in having their mobile apps morph into full desktop experiences depending on which medium you are using, that's a single app/program instead of having to figure out how to translate the work you do on an ipad to a PC/Mac and vice versa. So that's the answer to your question, we are not expecting too much because Windows changes itself dynamically depending on what vehicle you are using.

Not sure which Fluent video you watched, but it was apparent to me, even though the video is obviously a marketing tool/commercial. But if you are more interested just do a search, there are lots of real world examples and MS has already put a lot of the Fluent design language into Windows. It's elegant, helps the UI, and also keeps some flavor and excitement in the UI.

You're basing your view on Windows Metro?!?!? What is that like 5+ years ago? Have you ever seen what iOS or Android looked like 5 years ago? Would you really base your opinion on that? Just saying...

I still love the reception dots, but like I said I have old tired eyes which have lost sharp focus on small text/details. Yeah I'm starting to need that fisher-price oversized UI that I always made fun of my parents for, sigh.
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Nothing wrong with a book or a green felt gaming table in real life. In an interface? No thanks.

See, that's an opinion. Nothing wrong with that, everyone is entitled to it, but at the end of the day it's only an opinion. My opinion differs, I liked a lot of the elements of skeumorphism. I didn't like them all, and can agree that many of them were terrible. Which is probably one of the issues here, some of you are lumping everything into one basket whether it's good or bad. This was a learning period in Apple's lifetime, I am confident that if they had stuck with skeumorphism they would have continuously streamlined it for functionality.

Anyhoo, it's a lot of arguing over what amounts to nothing more than just personal opinion and preference, that's on both sides.
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Ok, explain to me how you focus on the content when the OS literally blends in with it making a confusing, hard to understand way. Instagram's big update in 2016 is a good example of this, why in the hell would you make the UI white to match the content. The content and UI should be different so you focus on the content and understand clearly that the content is the content and the UI is the UI, they should never cross unless the UI is part of the content... like a game for example.

Look at these two images:


View attachment 706666 View attachment 706667

What stands out in the iOS 6 app?

What stands out in the iOS 7 app?

Is no one going to mention the calendar app?

(http://cdn.redmondpie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Calendar.png)

Calendar.png


I never realized how important vertical lines were until iOS 7 lol. Especially when you have lots of events on your calendar (this picture doesn't have any)

Very good examples of the other end of the spectrum, how flattening, making separation less visible, and just making everything an awful shade of white on white really ruined iOS in many ways, if not most ways. The phone apps is definitely less functional, but my God I didn't realize just how badly they gimped the calendar app until I see it side by side with the old style. Anyone who is crying functionality over looks certainly has their argument soundly quashed by that side by side image.
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View attachment 706860

Apologies for showing A button instead of just saying you're right!

No he's not right, but then again neither are you, or myself. Personal preference and opinion are just that.
 
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I don't think UI's suffer at all when trying to cater to both desktop and touch interfaces, although we really only have Windows for comparison as no one else is doing this. But 1) I have not felt my desktop experience has suffered in the least in Windows 10, and 2) Not only do I feel that my touchscreen experience has not suffered, it has vastly improved over the past 1-2 years with the refinements being made. It's just me and my personal opinion, but I outright reject any supremacy of iOS because it is more "simple" or because it is first and foremost geared for a touch/mobile environment. I've said it before, that "simplicity" makes iOS more complicated in many ways. Microsoft is further on the right track in having their mobile apps morph into full desktop experiences depending on which medium you are using, that's a single app/program instead of having to figure out how to translate the work you do on an ipad to a PC/Mac and vice versa. So that's the answer to your question, we are not expecting too much because Windows changes itself dynamically depending on what vehicle you are using.

Not sure which Fluent video you watched, but it was apparent to me, even though the video is obviously a marketing tool/commercial. But if you are more interested just do a search, there are lots of real world examples and MS has already put a lot of the Fluent design language into Windows. It's elegant, helps the UI, and also keeps some flavor and excitement in the UI.

You're basing your view on Windows Metro?!?!? What is that like 5+ years ago? Have you ever seen what iOS or Android looked like 5 years ago? Would you really base your opinion on that? Just saying...

I still love the reception dots, but like I said I have old tired eyes which have lost sharp focus on small text/details. Yeah I'm starting to need that fisher-price oversized UI that I always made fun of my parents for, sigh.
I still criticize Microsoft’s way of combining Windows, Windows phone, and Xbox one, because no matter how hard they try, it just doesn’t connect.

I updated my Xbox a month ago and I was lost in the new creators update, it was confusing, and there is way too much going on. Once again, design is getting in the way of functionality and it flat out sucks.

This is the Xbox 360 NXE dashboard from 2008, seems pretty simple right? That’s because it is. Everything does what you think it does. No tricks.
IMG_3836.JPG


Here is the latest Creators update on Xbox one. It might look easy, but it’s really not, you think something does this, and it does something else. Terrible...
IMG_3837.PNG
 
I still criticize Microsoft’s way of combining Windows, Windows phone, and Xbox one, because no matter how hard they try, it just doesn’t connect.

I updated my Xbox a month ago and I was lost in the new creators update, it was confusing, and there is way too much going on. Once again, design is getting in the way of functionality and it flat out sucks.

This is the Xbox 360 NXE dashboard from 2008, seems pretty simple right? That’s because it is. Everything does what you think it does. No tricks.
View attachment 707094


Here is the latest Creators update on Xbox one. It might look easy, but it’s really not, you think something does this, and it does something else. Terrible...
View attachment 707095

I don't own a xbox and haven't used one for years so you may very well have a point. I would think that combining a desktop UI with a UI on the xbox, where the primary means of control is a game controller, would be very difficult and would most probably suck. Many opine that Micrsofts strategy has always been to sneak a PC into your living room, but unless they ship a better input/control method such as a mouse/keyboard then they will never succeed IMO.

But my post was not referring to the xbox at all, although you may have a point, I'm just not familiar with it.
 
Microsoft keeps changing the UI on Office and even though most functions were the same people were completely lost. Most users only know they go here and press this and something happens. too big changes just lead to confusion. I suspect most people on this forum aren't anywhere close to being typical users but Apple must deal with typical users as well as experts
 
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I still criticize Microsoft’s way of combining Windows, Windows phone, and Xbox one, because no matter how hard they try, it just doesn’t connect.

I updated my Xbox a month ago and I was lost in the new creators update, it was confusing, and there is way too much going on. Once again, design is getting in the way of functionality and it flat out sucks.

This is the Xbox 360 NXE dashboard from 2008, seems pretty simple right? That’s because it is. Everything does what you think it does. No tricks.
View attachment 707094


Here is the latest Creators update on Xbox one. It might look easy, but it’s really not, you think something does this, and it does something else. Terrible...
View attachment 707095

Yeah I remember the transition from their old UI to new one too. Everything looks much more orderly, but the way transitions work don't make any intuitive sense.
 
Very good examples of the other end of the spectrum, how flattening, making separation less visible, and just making everything an awful shade of white on white really ruined iOS in many ways, if not most ways. The phone apps is definitely less functional, but my God I didn't realize just how badly they gimped the calendar app until I see it side by side with the old style. Anyone who is crying functionality over looks certainly has their argument soundly quashed by that side by side image.

No he's not right, but then again neither are you, or myself. Personal preference and opinion are just that.

Interesting, reading your perspective of not seeing the iOS 6 calendar or dialer. For anyone who points to children and senior citizens easily working with today's iOS, I often wonder how many of them were around four years ago, to know what it used to be like? (and what they're missing)

I don't know that I agree with your last sentence, above, respectfully. :) I agree we're all allowed our opinion, but it's those one or two things that seem so blatantly worse, like the scheduler/calendar, that makes me wonder where is the line of acceptability to give a hall pass to an iOS which repeats so many themes seen in that calendar ...


Whatever they try, nothing will quite beat the simple Coverflow category UI of the 360 NXE dash.

There's been an unfortunate common theme over the past 3 to 4 years of re-doing almost every electronic interface with certain similar look, resulting in, in my opinion, something that mostly always is not for the better. Even my local cable TV company redid their previously super efficient and easy-to-use menu that worked well with a "clicker" remote type of interface into looking more like a mash up of Apple TV and google material design. I have my own critiques of those two in the mouse or touchscreen world, but it really falls flat when using a remote control clicker -- since less information is shown than before on the screen, you have to advance off screen more and with animations between screen transitions that are blocky and not smooth like on a tablet/phone. So you often lose your place between screen flips and have to look around to find where your cursor is, which is now just a thin red line underneath text (Google) instead of highlighting an entire cell or button (like God intended). :) Best of all there is no new functionality with this new cable TV interface, it's just different and looks like Google/Apple. (And requires more clicking than before, again like Google and especially Apple).
 
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I still criticize Microsoft’s way of combining Windows, Windows phone, and Xbox one, because no matter how hard they try, it just doesn’t connect.

I updated my Xbox a month ago and I was lost in the new creators update, it was confusing, and there is way too much going on. Once again, design is getting in the way of functionality and it flat out sucks.

This is the Xbox 360 NXE dashboard from 2008, seems pretty simple right? That’s because it is. Everything does what you think it does. No tricks.
View attachment 707094


Here is the latest Creators update on Xbox one. It might look easy, but it’s really not, you think something does this, and it does something else. Terrible...
View attachment 707095

That's interesting. IMO, When it comes to the Xbox 360 I agree the 2008 UI is the best, but when it comes to Xbox One I love the Summer 2015 look. I think the latest update that put the overlay menu is awesome. It reminds me of the Xbox 360 quick access menu.
 
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