iOS 12 and planned obsolescence

[C DM]

There is a slowdown.Apple does nothing about the slowdown amd leaves the older devices on a version they struggle to run. This proves Apple doesn't give a **** about older devices. Hence why I asked you what if Apple slowed down iPhone X to a crawl tomorrow to te point it took 5 seconds to open a simple settings menu. You will stills here staying just because it takes 5 seconds doesn't mean Apple's intention was malicious.

The proof you are demanding is Apple actually coming out and saying it which is never gonna happen.

Sounds like you agree that there isn't proof of an actual malicious conspiracy. I could say that that settles it, but given how often that gets backpedaled when it becomes convenient, I'm sure the same thing will be discussed yet again, arriving at the same conclusion yet again.
[doublepost=1528953050][/doublepost]

If it isn't user facing why does it affect performance in regular use?

If after everything a question like that is really a serious one, then the very basic foundation of it all isn't even there to have even the simplest of meaningful discussions about it.

 

[Radon87000]

Sounds like you agree that there isn't proof of an actual malicious conspiracy. I could say that that settles it, but given how often that gets backpedaled when it becomes convenient, I'm sure the same thing will be discussed yet again, arriving at the same conclusion yet again.
[doublepost=1528953050][/doublepost]
If after everything a question like that is really a serious one, then the very basic foundation of it all isn't even there to have even the simplest of meaningful discussions about it.

There is enough proof here to convince some of us that there's is an intentional slowdown by way of trapping devices as Apple intentionally does not provide a way out. Here is also proof that when you need any kind of service Apple forces you to update to the latest version.

The proof does not satisfy you but it does for us.

 

[C DM]

There is enough proof here to convince some of us that there's is an intentional slowdown by way of trapping devices as Apple intentionally does not provide a way out.

The proof does not satisfy you but it does for us.

That isn't how proofs work. We keep on coming back to the same old basic things. You can say there's enough there for you to believe a particular theory, but that isn't the same thing is proof.

 

[Radon87000]

That isn't how proofs work. We keep on coming back to the same old basic things. You can say there's enough there for you to believe a particular theory, but that isn't the same thing is proof.

You want the latest apps----Update the device
You want service from Apple------Update the device
You want security fixes------Update the device

Result of an update- Phone slows down. No way out.

It's basically like a tag which come attached with the device stating, this phone will slow down every year because of under the hood changes to the point you will be annoyed enough to get a new one.

 

[C DM]

You want the latest apps----Update the device
You want service from Apple------Update the device
You want security fixes------Update the device

Result of an update- Phone slows down. No way out.

It's basically like a tag which come attached with the device stating, this phone will slow down every year because of under the hood changes to the point you will be annoyed enough to get a new one.

As pretty much usual, what does that have to do with my post that was quoted?

 

[Radon87000]

Also this slowdown is somehow justified because Apple is adding features. I don’t want the features if they slow down my devices. I just want the features I paid for when the device was new updated with security fixes because the performance vs features tradeoff isn’t justifiable to me.
[doublepost=1528953925][/doublepost]

As pretty much usual, what does that have to do with my post that was quoted?

You are saying I am believing a theory but the reality is Apple is in fact forcing you to get the latest version if you want the newer apps or services or security fixes. The fact they deny service at the store if you are on an year old version is proof enough.

Apple forces users into using a slower phone the consequences of which are well known.

 

[C DM]

Also this slowdown is somehow justified because Apple is adding features. I don’t want the features if they slow down my devices. I just want the features I paid for when the device was new updated with security fixes because the performance vs features tradeoff isn’t justifiable to me.
[doublepost=1528953925][/doublepost]
You are saying I am believing a theory but the reality is Apple is in fact forcing you to get the latest version if you want the newer apps or services or security fixes. The fact they deny service at the store if you are on an year old version is proof enough.

Apple forces users into using a slower phone the consequences of which are well known.

So basically nothing related to what I was pointing out. Alright.

 

[Radon87000]

So basically nothing related to what I was pointing out. Alright.

You are saying it's not proof. I am saying the slowdown is the proof. You want Apple to announce it officially. The proof I have good enough to prove planned obsolescence for us.

 

[C DM]

You are saying it's not proof. I am saying the slowdown is the proof. You want Apple to announce it officially. The proof I have good enough to prove planned obsolescence for us.

None of that was saying that. And what you said there is what you've already said just a few posts ago to which I already replied at https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ios-12-and-planned-obsolescence.2121439/page-15#post-26151992 Trying to go in the same circles over and over isn't going to change anything.

 

[gaanee]

Isn't that how software as a service suppose to work? Only the current version is supported, even Microsoft is doing the same with Windows 10. Otherwise people will still keep asking for security patches on Windows 95.

While there have been situations where older iPhones got slowed down with new updates and a company like Apple could have done better, whether it was done intentionally is questionable. Many new features get added in the new version of iOS which are designed and optimized for the latest or the upcoming hardware and work reasonably well on older devices.

I use iPhone 5S and I am glad that Apple is still supporting it. It may not be as smooth as on iOS10 especially with the memory management, but I still get to use the newest features supported by it's hardware and with iOS 12, it might even improve.

If you don't want new version being forced on you, take a look at Android where many phones barely get any updates.
Whether Apple should allow downgrading to the last stable version... maybe, particularly for older devices, but with software as a service model, they won't be releasing security patches for them and people will then complain about security vulnerabilities on iOS.

 

[Radon87000]

Isn't that how software as a service suppose to work? Only the current version is supported, even Microsoft is doing the same with Windows 10. Otherwise people will still keep asking for security patches on Windows 95.

While there have been situations where older iPhones got slowed down with new updates and a company like Apple could have done better, whether it was done intentionally is questionable. Many new features get added in the new version of iOS which are designed and optimized for the latest or the upcoming hardware and work reasonably well on older devices.

I use iPhone 5S and I am glad that Apple is still supporting it. It may not be as smooth as on iOS10 especially with the memory management, but I still get to use the newest features supported by it's hardware and with iOS 12, it might even improve.

If you don't want new version being forced on you, take a look at Android where many phones barely get any updates.
Whether Apple should allow downgrading to the last stable version... maybe, particularly for older devices, but with software as a service model, they won't be releasing security patches for them and people will then complain about security vulnerabilities on iOS.

Not true. Microsoft still supports Windows 8.1, a 5 year old OS with security patches. It will be supported till 2023. That’s a decade of support.

Google still supports Android 7.1 for the Pixel XL a 2 year old OS. Google still supports Android 6.0 for the Pixel C, a 3 year old OS. Google allows installation of Android 5.0 on a Nexus 6 a 4 year old OS.

Take a look at this page. Looks the laundry list of Verizon numbers you can downgrade to. This proves how customer friendly Google’s update policies are. Their priority is not adding features but to keep their devices usable.

https://developers.google.com/android/images

The reason these companies support older OS is because they recognise that the newer versions wont run well on older hardware and they don’t want customers to tolerate a slower device just for the purpose of security.

I don’t know about the 5s but the iPhone 6 I have is unusable on ios 11. I really wish I could downgrade back to 8.

 

[FeliApple]

There is one little aspect that can be considered "planned obsolescence": Firstly, though: You can refuse service if they say they will update. (I mean in a battery change or something that isn't more serious. You can specifically request them not to update but I have heard mixed results with this). You can refuse to update if they tell you after offering support (oh have I done this three million times?... Yes). You cannot refuse to update if you have a problem and you have to restore, as it happened earlier to me, and I explained. Apple is forcing me to update by not allowing me - if they won't allow downgrading - to restore to the same version I'm in.

 

[d5aqoëp]

No it wont. It will only end when Apple supports multiple OS builds like Microsoft and Google do and shut us naysayers up.

I think I am quite satisfied with Apple’s direction with iOS 12. Maybe I have lowered my expectations but getting optimisations mentioned for devices as old as iPhone 5S is a big deal. Let’s not even talk about Androids as most phones receive 2 years of updates that too for flagships. Manufacturers like Samsung release late updates as if they are throwing breadcrumbs to starving masses. Pixel 2 is the only device to get latest Android versions for 3 years. We will see how Android R behaves on it.

It seems like Apple is finally on the right path and most of their steps taken are very good.

Planned Obsolescence does not exist as of today when it comes to Apple. It might exist in future but who’s seen that?

 

[I7guy]

I think I am quite satisfied with Apple’s direction with iOS 12. Maybe I have lowered my expectations but getting optimisations mentioned for devices as old as iPhone 5S is a big deal. Let’s not even talk about Androids as most phones receive 2 years of updates that too for flagships. Manufacturers like Samsung release late updates as if they are throwing breadcrumbs to starving masses. Pixel 2 is the only device to get latest Android versions for 3 years. We will see how Android R behaves on it.

It seems like Apple is finally on the right path and most of their steps taken are very good.

Planned Obsolescence does not exist as of today when it comes to Apple. It might exist in future but who’s seen that?

Yesterday Apple engaged in planned obsolescence. Today they don’t but tomorrow they might?

 

[gaanee]

I was referring specifically to Windows 10 which is offered on software as a service model. Windows 7, 8.1 were standalone installations. Today if you want to install Windows 10 then you can only install the latest version of Windows 10 not the one released last year irrespective of whether it was stable on older hardware or not. Microsoft phases out issuing security patches to older versions.
Apple is following a similar model, though they don't offer security patches for older versions.
Google doesn't seem to follow the same model mainly because it has to give OEMs some control over Android installations who don't have much incentive for investing in software upgrades, so Google is not enforcing it in the same way as Microsoft and Apple

Planned obsolescence is what HP was doing with their printer cartridges, forcing cartridges to stop working after a certain date even if they had plenty of ink left. Now that was deliberate and planned obsolescence.

Not true. Microsoft still supports Windows 8.1, a 5 year old OS with security patches. It will be supported till 2023. That’s a decade of support.

Google still supports Android 7.1 for the Pixel XL a 2 year old OS. Google still supports Android 6.0 for the Pixel C, a 3 year old OS. Google allows installation of Android 5.0 on a Nexus 6 a 4 year old OS.

Take a look at this page. Looks the laundry list of Verizon numbers you can downgrade to. This proves how customer friendly Google’s update policies are. Their priority is not adding features but to keep their devices usable.

https://developers.google.com/android/images

The reason these companies support older OS is because they recognise that the newer versions wont run well on older hardware and they don’t want customers to tolerate a slower device just for the purpose of security.

I don’t know about the 5s but the iPhone 6 I have is unusable on ios 11. I really wish I could downgrade back to 8.

 

[Radon87000]

Yesterday Apple engaged in planned obsolescence. Today they don’t but tomorrow they might?

They may have paused planned obsolescence as they don't want to risk a further slowdown to older devices in iOS 12 immediately after Throttlegate as customers are already wary to them. Whether that's permanent or temporary would be known only when iOS 13 launches. iOS 12 is the first release where 12.0 matches 11.4 in speed. It should undo most of the damage iOS 11 did when we reach iOS 12.3. Even the iPhone X has a substantial speed increase on iSO 12. FaceID is at least 40% faster for me and more reliable.

I was referring specifically to Windows 10 which is offered on software as a service model. Windows 7, 8.1 were standalone installations. Today if you want to install Windows 10 then you can only install the latest version of Windows 10 not the one released last year irrespective of whether it was stable on older hardware or not. Microsoft phases out issuing security patches to older versions.
Apple is following a similar model, though they don't offer security patches for older versions.
Google doesn't seem to follow the same model mainly because it has to give OEMs some control over Android installations who don't have much incentive for investing in software upgrades, so Google is not enforcing it in the same way as Microsoft and Apple

Planned obsolescence is what HP was doing with their printer cartridges, forcing cartridges to stop working after a certain date even if they had plenty of ink left. Now that was deliberate and planned obsolescence.

Planned Obsolescence will not work with Microsoft because I can simply use the same product key on a new PC and Microsoft gets zero. When it comes to Apple, you have to get a new phone to escape the slowdown.

By the way, you can still install older versions of Windows 10 but those older builds wont receive security patches. But then, because Microsoft is following a service model, they don't need to rush out builds to meet deadlines like how Apple has to do. Apple must launch iOS 13 next year in September be it ready or not. They release unoptimized builds and we need to wait till X.3 to get a functioning smooth OS. Microsoft only releases builds when they are actually ready

 

[3:16]

My iPhone 7 is about the same on 11.4 as 10.3.3. No real difference except my iPhone 7 is fully patched. No difference in the home button. I think that is a placebo effect.

Your story is a prime example that people upgrade their phones for reasons of their own. That is you claim you didn’t like the home button response in iOS 11.

How’s your battery life on 11.4 ??

 

[I7guy]

They may have paused planned obsolescence as they don't want to risk a further slowdown to older devices in iOS 12 immediately after Throttlegate as customers are already wary to them. Whether that's permanent or temporary would be known only when iOS 13 launches. iOS 12 is the first release where 12.0 matches 11.4 in speed. It should undo most of the damage iOS 11 did when we reach iOS 12.3. Even the iPhone X has a substantial speed increase on iSO 12. FaceID is at least 40% faster for me and more reliable.


Planned Obsolescence will not work with Microsoft because I can simply use the same product key on a new PC and Microsoft gets zero. When it comes to Apple, you have to get a new phone to escape the slowdown.

By the way, you can still install older versions of Windows 10 but those older builds wont receive security patches. But then, because Microsoft is following a service model, they don't need to rush out builds to meet deadlines like how Apple has to do. Apple must launch iOS 13 next year in September be it ready or not. They release unoptimized builds and we need to wait till X.3 to get a functioning smooth OS. Microsoft only releases builds when they are actually ready

Number of things.

• Saying customers are wary after throttlegate is a strawman. It's typical of generalized statements that projects one feelings unto the tens of millions. In that vein, I can confidently say, customers don't care.
• There is no "damage" as you put it regarding ios 11. That again is a strawman as I can confidently say customers are not thinking that.
• Today's turbo 2 liter cars are almost faster than yesteryear's V8. Did the auto manufacturers purposely slow yesteryears' cars? Same for touched 2.
• That planned obsolescence will not work with Microsoft because they allow you to hack their systems, does not mean MS does not engage in p/o. Seems like there is a double standard. But it you can live without security patches, more power to you.
• Apple launching ios 13 on a schedule is not indicative of planned obsolescence. I know for a fact Microsoft never released anything half-baked before it's time.

How’s your battery life on 11.4 ??

Wet finger in the air. 11.4 is slightly worse than 11.3.1. But 11.4.1 beta 2 is very good. So 11.4.1 is shaping up to be a great release.

 

[JohnnyW2K1]

Radeon87000 Everything you've said, and all the arguments you've made, are demonstrably true. You have far more patience than I do!

The idea that iOS updates are so different that a machine just a few years old can't possible keep up with it is preposterous, but even if it were true, Apple could simply write different versions of their OS for different devices.

Imagine a laptop that slowed down after two years!

Anyways, rest assured there are people here who understand the issue.

 

[Dj64Mk7]

. So 11.4.1 is shaping up to be a great release.

Shame that it took them so long to get it right.

 

[3:16]

So 11.4.1 is shaping up to be a great release.

I’m hoping so

 

[Tubamajuba]

The idea that iOS updates are so different that a machine just a few years old can't possible keep up with it is preposterous, but even if it were true, Apple could simply write different versions of their OS for different devices.

I take it you don't realize that nothing is "simple" about maintaining several versions of operating systems. You probably also don't realize that Apple already has to customize each iOS release for each iOS device. Modem firmwares, GPU drivers, 3D Touch, Face ID/Touch ID, dual cameras, WiFi vs cellular, and the list goes on. Ensuring compatibility across several different devices and different generations of those different devices is no small feat, even when you control the hardware variations like Apple does. Even Microsoft, the king of legacy compatibility, is trying to push everyone from Windows 7 to Windows 10 while making it extremely difficult to stay on an older version of Windows 10.

Imagine a laptop that slowed down after two years!

Desktop and laptop CPUs haven't gained all that much speed in the last seven or so years. Take some of Intel's top performing CPUs over the years- the 2018 Core i7-8700k is only around 60% faster than 2011's Core i7-2700k. Smartphone CPUs have made tremendous gains in the same time frame. The A11 in the iPhone X/8/8 Plus is around 2000% faster than the A5 released in 2011. To compare that with the oldest supported device in iOS 12, the A11 is around 500% faster than the A7 used in 2013's iPhone 5s.

There's no grand conspiracy here- it takes a lot of effort to make newer versions of iOS with more features run smoothly on older and significantly slower hardware. It took a year of Apple focusing on performance to get where they did with iOS 12, and that has caused some people to lament the lack of new features that iOS 12 has to offer. It's a tradeoff that had to be made, but it's a tradeoff nonetheless.

 

[bri1212]

For me, the only bugs I experienced were in the beta and then upgrading to 11.2, performance was not an issue for me, with the exception of dealing with changeover from beta to IOS.

 

[JohnnyW2K1]

I take it you don't realize that nothing is "simple" about maintaining several versions of operating systems. You probably also don't realize that Apple already has to customize each iOS release for each iOS device. Modem firmwares, GPU drivers, 3D Touch, Face ID/Touch ID, dual cameras, WiFi vs cellular, and the list goes on. Ensuring compatibility across several different devices and different generations of those different devices is no small feat, even when you control the hardware variations like Apple does. Even Microsoft, the king of legacy compatibility, is trying to push everyone from Windows 7 to Windows 10 while making it extremely difficult to stay on an older version of Windows 10.

Yes, it's difficult, but it's not beyond the biggest computing company in the world. Not least because it's made much easier by the fact that Apple controls the hardware: They know exactly the CPU/GPU power they can write for. Poor Microsoft have to cover a near infinite number of hardware combinations and still make sure it runs as well as possible. And they do.

Desktop and laptop CPUs haven't gained all that much speed in the last seven or so years. Take some of Intel's top performing CPUs over the years- the 2018 Core i7-8700k is only around 60% faster than 2011's Core i7-2700k. Smartphone CPUs have made tremendous gains in the same time frame. The A11 in the iPhone X/8/8 Plus is around 2000% faster than the A5 released in 2011. To compare that with the oldest supported device in iOS 12, the A11 is around 500% faster than the A7 used in 2013's iPhone 5s.

There's no grand conspiracy here- it takes a lot of effort to make newer versions of iOS with more features run smoothly on older and significantly slower hardware. It took a year of Apple focusing on performance to get where they did with iOS 12, and that has caused some people to lament the lack of new features that iOS 12 has to offer. It's a tradeoff that had to be made, but it's a tradeoff nonetheless.

Desktop and laptop CPUs have increased in power in precisely the same way they always have. Here's a great video discussing it:

As for mobile speeds:

iPhone 5S scores: Geekbench 4 (64-Bit One Core): 1266
iPhone X scores: Geekbench 4 (64-Bit One Core): 4193

This is a speed increase of 231.2%, nowhere near the "500%" you claim.

Source: https://everyi.com/ibenchmarks/index-ipod-iphone-ipad-benchmarks.html

The final bit of proof that it is possible for Apple to take the time to write for older devices is that they're finally doing it with iOS 12. I think this is is a wonderful thing, and I'm glad the "gimme new features" crowd has become less noisy of late.

Give me a great experience... I have all the features I need!

 

[aakshey]

I take it you don't realize that nothing is "simple" about maintaining several versions of operating systems. You probably also don't realize that Apple already has to customize each iOS release for each iOS device. Modem firmwares, GPU drivers, 3D Touch, Face ID/Touch ID, dual cameras, WiFi vs cellular, and the list goes on. Ensuring compatibility across several different devices and different generations of those different devices is no small feat, even when you control the hardware variations like Apple does. Even Microsoft, the king of legacy compatibility, is trying to push everyone from Windows 7 to Windows 10 while making it extremely difficult to stay on an older version of Windows 10.



Desktop and laptop CPUs haven't gained all that much speed in the last seven or so years. Take some of Intel's top performing CPUs over the years- the 2018 Core i7-8700k is only around 60% faster than 2011's Core i7-2700k. Smartphone CPUs have made tremendous gains in the same time frame. The A11 in the iPhone X/8/8 Plus is around 2000% faster than the A5 released in 2011. To compare that with the oldest supported device in iOS 12, the A11 is around 500% faster than the A7 used in 2013's iPhone 5s.

There's no grand conspiracy here- it takes a lot of effort to make newer versions of iOS with more features run smoothly on older and significantly slower hardware. It took a year of Apple focusing on performance to get where they did with iOS 12, and that has caused some people to lament the lack of new features that iOS 12 has to offer. It's a tradeoff that had to be made, but it's a tradeoff nonetheless.

Sorry but you know jack.

Geekbench:

i7 2700k
Multi Core - 13k

8700k
Multi Core - 26k

100% as fast.

Now, Core i5 760 (perfectly fine for most non production/gaming stuff and runs everything just fine)
Multi Core - 6500

So going from a Core i5 760 to 8700k, is like a 300% performance boost. And both are perfectly fine for regular stuff most folks do.

Coming to iOS:

iPhone 5s
Multi Core - 2k

iPhone X
Multi Core - 10k

But a more realistic comparison would be with the 6s or 7

7
Multi Core - 5.5k

Going from 2k to 5.5k leads to a night and day difference in just scrolling the home screen.

While most people won’t even upgrade from the 6.5k to 23k PC unless they are gamers or professionals.

If you have average or better intelligence, you’ll be able to make the correct deduction from here.