iPad Pro iPad design: needs to significantly evolve. Surface Pro X has it beat.

[booksbooks]

(1) – "No, you do not.", and (2) – "Apple never marketed it as such."

Beyond that you present your "personal experience" as "statistical evidence" in an effort to make it support your personal assumptions, and infuse the whole shebang with a hefty portion of unquantifiable and highly subjective personal observations like "uninspired" or "blocky".

What in the world could possibly lead you to believe that a $265B company would not have considered, most likely even have built in form of prototypes, a hardware feature one of their competitors had from day one of that product's launch?

I'd have understood a question, or even a complaint along the lines of "I'd really love a Surface-like kickstand built into my next iPad", but what you have asserted here is little more than thinly veiled clickbait.

How do I present my personal experience as statistical evidence.

Second, you commit strawmen by focusing in on one narrow aspect of a long list of things that are objective benefits of the Surface over the iPad.

And when it comes to a $265B company not considering something, the evidence for that is all over the place. Take the Apple Pencil, for instance. The butt of jokes that it looks like a bayonet stuck into the bottom of the iPad to charge it. A Pencil that loses its charge constantly, and required a byzantine method to charge it. This, in comparison to the Surface Pen that has a battery that lasts weeks to many months without needing to charge it. One that would wake the Surface at the click of a button and shoot directly into the Notes App. One that had multiple application support from the beginning.

Apple's Pencil was little more than a gimmick when it launched with hardly any Pencil support even months after launch, including effectively no support in many Apple Apps. And of the third party Apps that supported it, several were buggy with latency. Apple's own Apps also had very little support for it. Now, it's slightly better with the magnetic charging, but still loses its charge constantly and requires frequent charging. And the App support for it is still questionable.

Microsoft is ahead here with deep level pen support in applications, including things like being able to write with the pen and have that converted into text and put into cells, for instance, in Excel.

 

[booksbooks]

• Being satisfied with a product isn't a measure of innovation on its own. Regardless, we have zero satisfaction data for the Surface Pro X because it's not out yet so we can't compare.

Zero data to support the Pro X, it will have a lot to live up to... but we do have it for iPad, and iPad is king for customer satisfaction and sales compared to anything else on the planet (if you're living on the same one as the rest of us, that is)..

• You post something about the design saying it's my opinion when I already addressed what's opinion and what's objective, like the large camera bump on the iPad or lack of rounded corners.

It is your opinion on the design, fact.

• Thinner and lighter: this says nothing of innovation on its own. I can design and manufacture a tablet right now that's got a 13" screen and only weighs half of one pound. It's what's on the inside that counts (e.g., powerful processors, ports, etc.). I've also already addressed that the iPad is thinner and lighter. The Surface Pro does have a slightly larger display and t's also got a built-in kickstand and 2 USB-C ports. The devices are also not that far apart in terms of thickness and weight.

I bet you most certainly can not, nor can I nor can anyone at Apple on their own accord. Get real.. The iPad is the most powerful tablet out today, compare graphics and processing performance to an i7 SPro - real world examples, not the spec sheet.

• There has been no comparison of the cameras, so nobody can say, including you, which one is better, but on paper the iPad Pro camera is better. Both the cameras are somewhat comparable spec-wise: SPX: 10.0MP rear-facing autofocus camera with 1080p HD and 4k video; iPad Pro 12.9 is a 12.0 MP camera with some other technology built-in. Regardless, back-facing cameras are not a defining feature of a tablet since people use much smaller devices like a smartphone for taking video and pictures. The front-facing cameras are 5 MP vs. 7 MP respectively.

Same applies, we know the iPad uses a not-far-off-the-latest iPhone camera. None of the Surface devices currently to date have anything to write home about on the camera. The SPX will need to live up to this too, but until they announce it iPad reigns supreme on this front too.. Now you're comparing it to other devices ;-)

• The Surface Pro keyboard is better than Apple's keyboard cover or many of the third party ones out there, period, full stop. No argument. It's a strawman to compare it to a laptop. We're not comapring it to that. We're comparing it to the iPad. What it has on the Apple keyboard cover and several other third party ones: 1) Backlit keys. 2) Comfortable fabric. 3) Actual palm-rest. 4) A glass, multi-touch trackpad. 5) A well for the Stylus that doubles as a "hidden" compartment and stylus charger so the stylus is effectively always charged.

It's had horrific user reviews and reliability! Logitech products are way more reliable and comfortable. Since the Surface Pro is best described as half of a laptop, it compares poorly to other laptops keyboards. I'm comparing it to laptops whether you like it or not, because consumers are comparing it to a laptop when they entertain the idea of buying one, not to an iPad. An iPad is a true tablet. A Surface is a Windows laptop without a keyboard and near-Apple build quality.

• Surface Pro Slim Pen: it's absurd to say that Apple's pencil is "king" and "wayy more innovative". It's not. Period. Both pens are almost identical when it comes to pressure sensitivity and latency. The Surface pen also is supported across many applications in Windows, including running full Adobe applications like Photoshop and Illustrator. Now, Microsoft has updates to its Office applications so you can actually use the pen to write in applications like Excel and it will get converted into text and go into cells. The pen support across Windows is much, much better than iOS. It's an afterthought in iOS. The Surface Pro X also supports the Surface Dial, something 100% designed for artists. And here's an artist using the Surface Pro 6 and pen to draw. There, now you've seen someone use it for art.

The Apple Pencil is king and more innovative. Adobe are bringing out full Photoshop for iPad and will actually ensure the experience is lended to the iPad form in a superior way.. Windows touch / pen support is famously an after thought, Windows 8 started that off. A thread on here where people show their Apple Pencil drawings probably has more responses than professionals globally using the Surface Pen ROFL ..

• Seems like it can't and does not, bud. With no ability to be propped up, the iPad out of the box cannot be used like a laptop.

That's a positive to most people except those with your niche feature request for it, see the poll results for a small sample of forum users opinions saying they don't want this..

• The iPad's battery life is not better than a Surface Pro X. We don't know that because the Surface Pro X is not yet released, bud.

It's the best in the business. It will still be when the SPX comes out, and if they had any chance of besting it they'd have said so. Windows 10 isn't a tablet OS and isn't optimised very well for this, see current Surface device reviews / rankings for reference.. it's okay at best.

• You keep committing strawmen by taking something that is a feature of the Surface Pro that the iPad Pro doesn't have, and detracting away from it by comparing it to a different category product. The Surface Pro is a tablet, and it has 2 USB-C ports, the iPad Pro has 1.

Oh yeah, like you did with the phone example for cameras ;-) The Surface Pro is half a laptop, not a 'true tablet'.

• The 16 GB of RAM in the Surface Pro X will be used by full desktop programs that the iPad Pro does not run. And you cannot say it's slow RAM, because it's not. It's LPDDR4x RAM at 3733Mbps.

Again, Apple's advantage is in the real world user experience over comparing specs. The iPad Pro can match the speed of the MBP on exporting tasks etc in some comparisons, even on ARM...

• The hard drive is replaceable by using a SIM card pin to pop off the cover, and then unscrew the SSD and replace it. What did you hear bud.

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/microsoft-surface-laptop-3-ssd-repair-upgrade

• The actual square mm of the Surface Pro X and the iPad Pro 12.9 are nearly identical.

Except the iPP has no flimsy breakable stand in your way ;-)

I think it's somewhat clear that you say things, but the intent is perhaps more about you wanting to argue than about facts. You're narrowly focused on Customer satisfaction ratings, which says very little about what we're talking about. We're talking about the evolution of a product. That if the iPad had a kickstand, it might actually get higher marks. It's fairly pointless to fixate on satisfaction ratings, however, especially compared to an unreleased product. But I'll humour you. I know you don't have the data to support you, which makes this pretty funny. Here's one source, and it's not so hot, is it? Only 1 point ahead of Samsung.

"In a survey conducted, which covers laptops, desktops, and tablets, it was revealed that Apple’s iPad and Mac lines reached a median satisfaction level of 83/100. While this is significantly lower than the number obtained by the Apple Watch and iPhone, it still represents the top spot overall for the category. After all, Samsung, which sits in a close second place, obtained an overall score of 82 for its tablets and laptops."

A camera bump is not an opinion, it's a fact. And it compromises the device (e.g., being able to lay it flat on a surface). It's not a dealbreaker, but this goes to the heart of functional design, and is also something complained about on the iPhone.

I can design a 13" tablet that weighs half of one pound. It will have 1 hour battery life because it has a small battery, etc. The point is that the thickness and weight of a device do not, on their own, equal innovation. And when it comes to Apple's iPad being more powerful than an i7 Surface, that's laughable. Surface runs full windows and desktop applications, the iPad does not. The iPad runs a stripped down operating system and stripped down mobile Apps.

Cameras... another strawman... rear-facing cameras are not a defining feature of a tablet. Regardless, they both have cameras. The iPad's is better on paper.

I'm comparing the Surface Pro's keyboard to the iPad's whether you like it or not. And no amount of your strawman will detract from this. The Surface Pro keyboard is better than the iPad's. Backlit keys. Large, glass, multi-touch trackpad. Wireless pen charging cradle that hides the pen. Two angle modes. No back cover for less weight. The Surface Pro keyboard weighs 0.7 lbs. The Apple keyboard cover weighs 0.9 lbs. The devices with the keyboard covers are now just 0.1 lb apart.

Now, let's look at data, because I know you haven't. On the Apple store, the Apple iPad 12.9 keyboard cover from Apple has, out of 68 reviews, 24 one star reviews. And you guessed it, some complain of no backlighting, poor quality, etc. Imagine that... Compare it to the Surface Pro keyboard. Almost 400 reviews at BestBuy with less than ten 1 star reviews and an average 4.8 out of 5 star rating.

Now, the Apple Pencil being king. No, it is not king. They both have near identical pressure sensitivities and latency, and Microsoft's support and software support is better on the Surface (e.g., deep level Office App support, operating system support, and third party software support). FACT: Apple just recently STARTED supporting the Pencil in the iWork Apps. The Apple Pencil hardly worked in any Apps at launch and for several months after. No, the Apple Pencil is not king. That's absurd and a strawman as you have nothing to support your argument other than a refusal to admit defeat on this point. The after thought is famously and squarely with Apple, with the absurd bayonet style charging of the Gen 1 Apple Pencil and one that constantly bleeds its charge. And now the new Pencil still constantly bleeds it charge and continues to have questionable App support.

The fact that an iPad cannot be elevated on its own out of the box is a problem for people who need to use it more than a tablet: that need typing and a more laptop experience. It's a feature built-in to the Surface.

The iPad Pro battery is not the best in the business, bud. Samsung Galaxy Tab S4 (https://www.techradar.com/news/ipad...4-whats-the-best-premium-tablet-available-now). And we don't know how it compares to SPX because that device is unreleased.

The phone example counters your strawman because it points out that a defining feature of a tablet is not a camera, but that a camera on a smartphone is a defining feature. The size of the devices are largely the reason: people don't walk about with a 13" slate taking photos, but with their smartphone always in their pocket and on them, they use that device to take photos.

The Surface is absolutely 100% a tablet. It also serves the purpose of a laptop.

The iPad Pro does not run full desktop applications. It has a mobile chip that is designed to cycle as heat dissipation is an issue. Benchmarks do not = real world performance.

I have educated myself on the HD. Microsoft is doing what any company would by saying that an experienced technician should replace the HD. Nothing is stopping anyone from EASILY doing it themselves. This is much better than Apple fighting tooth and nail to stop people from repairing their own devices. And when it comes to the HD on an iPad, no, you cannot replace it.

 

[Smici]

A tab s6 keyboard cover like thing would be a great option for the kickstand. What do you think?

 

[aevan]

Explain, specifically, how. Demonstrate and prove how it beats the Surface Pen.

Gladly. The Surface Pen has much more trouble keeping the line straight during slow movements (the infamous “wobble”), the latency is bigger than the Pencil and the parallax effect is a bit larger. All these things are not important for taking notes, but if you want to do art - then they become quite significant.

There are plenty of videos to show that, like this one (you can see Pencil is better and this is before ProMotion and iOS13, both of which reduce Pencil latency even further):

Also, pay attention to angular curves the Surface Pen produces - maybe Microsoft fixed this in software by now, but still. The pen hardware in the new Surface Pro is the same - but I have to admit I haven't tried the new slim pen. I figure it's the same tech inside, but can't be sure.

- but the best are those from Brad Colbow. I recommend checking out his channel if you’re interested in tech for artists and why Surfaces are lacking in the art department, while the Pencil has even Wacom styluses beat.

In short - Pencil really has the Surface Pen beat when it comes to line quality and overal feel of drawing.
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Now, the Apple Pencil being king. No, it is not king. They both have near identical pressure sensitivities and latency

You’re just straight up wrong there. In practice, the difference is quite noticeable - this is why professional artists use Wacom styluses and Apple Pencils in the vast majority.

 

[danmart]

The closed kickstand takes up no room

That is clearly incorrect, as you need a second ‘back’ behind the kickstand for when it is open. I will grant you it is only a little bit of room...

you could make a third party folding case that covered it.

The real question is: if a device had a built in stand would manufacturers choose to create back cases, knowing that most users won’t buy them? I don’t think they would. Certainly, there would be vastly less choice available.

 

[aevan]

That is clearly incorrect, as you need a second ‘back’ behind the kickstand for when it is open. I will grant you it is only a little bit of room...

In the mobile world, that's a lot of space, actually.

 

[0989382]

I think it's somewhat clear that you say things, but the intent is perhaps more about you wanting to argue than about facts. You're narrowly focused on Customer satisfaction ratings, which says very little about what we're talking about. We're talking about the evolution of a product. That if the iPad had a kickstand, it might actually get higher marks. It's fairly pointless to fixate on satisfaction ratings, however, especially compared to an unreleased product. But I'll humour you. I know you don't have the data to support you, which makes this pretty funny. Here's one source, and it's not so hot, is it? Only 1 point ahead of Samsung.

Customer satisfaction and sales has everything to do with it. If it's sorely lacking in features compared to the Surface Pro, and there's actually something to it, then the SP would have way higher customer satisfaction from users and higher sales, maybe even comparable to the iPad (LOL at that notion). You've provided zero data, and the poll on the thread being the only direct data would favour my side of the discussion


"In a survey conducted, which covers laptops, desktops, and tablets, it was revealed that Apple’s iPad and Mac lines reached a median satisfaction level of 83/100. While this is significantly lower than the number obtained by the Apple Watch and iPhone, it still represents the top spot overall for the category. After all, Samsung, which sits in a close second place, obtained an overall score of 82 for its tablets and laptops."

Source? Come on, Backing up your point 101 here mate..

A camera bump is not an opinion, it's a fact. And it compromises the device (e.g., being able to lay it flat on a surface). It's not a dealbreaker, but this goes to the heart of functional design, and is also something complained about on the iPhone.

It's a fact that it exists, finally you've made a valid point ;-) again, not stopping sales or satisfaction..

I can design a 13" tablet that weighs half of one pound. It will have 1 hour battery life because it has a small battery, etc. The point is that the thickness and weight of a device do not, on their own, equal innovation. And when it comes to Apple's iPad being more powerful than an i7 Surface, that's laughable. Surface runs full windows and desktop applications, the iPad does not. The iPad runs a stripped down operating system and stripped down mobile Apps.

If it can perform in line with a 15" MBP, trust me it can smoke a SPro.. Go ahead, post a video of the tablet you're building if you're the expert you claim to be.. we'd all love to see that monstrosity..

Cameras... another strawman... rear-facing cameras are not a defining feature of a tablet. Regardless, they both have cameras. The iPad's is better on paper.

iPads is better in the real world, too. People also actually use it..

I'm comparing the Surface Pro's keyboard to the iPad's whether you like it or not. And no amount of your strawman will detract from this. The Surface Pro keyboard is better than the iPad's. Backlit keys. Large, glass, multi-touch trackpad. Wireless pen charging cradle that hides the pen. Two angle modes. No back cover for less weight. The Surface Pro keyboard weighs 0.7 lbs. The Apple keyboard cover weighs 0.9 lbs. The devices with the keyboard covers are now just 0.1 lb apart.

Hey, you're entitled to your opinion as a consumer!

Now, let's look at data, because I know you haven't. On the Apple store, the Apple iPad 12.9 keyboard cover from Apple has, out of 68 reviews, 24 one star reviews. And you guessed it, some complain of no backlighting, poor quality, etc. Imagine that... Compare it to the Surface Pro keyboard. Almost 400 reviews at BestBuy with less than ten 1 star reviews and an average 4.8 out of 5 star rating.

BestBuy reviews, wow you've really done your homework /s ..

Now, the Apple Pencil being king. No, it is not king. They both have near identical pressure sensitivities and latency, and Microsoft's support and software support is better on the Surface (e.g., deep level Office App support, operating system support, and third party software support). FACT: Apple just recently STARTED supporting the Pencil in the iWork Apps. The Apple Pencil hardly worked in any Apps at launch and for several months after. No, the Apple Pencil is not king. That's absurd and a strawman as you have nothing to support your argument other than a refusal to admit defeat on this point. The after thought is famously and squarely with Apple, with the absurd bayonet style charging of the Gen 1 Apple Pencil and one that constantly bleeds its charge. And now the new Pencil still constantly bleeds it charge and continues to have questionable App support.

See post below.

The fact that an iPad cannot be elevated on its own out of the box is a problem for people who need to use it more than a tablet: that need typing and a more laptop experience. It's a feature built-in to the Surface. Period. No argument.

It's a true tablet.. you find it a problem -~ minority.

The iPad Pro battery is not the best in the business. Samsung Galaxy Tab S4 (https://www.techradar.com/news/ipad...4-whats-the-best-premium-tablet-available-now). And we don't know how it compares to SPX because that device is unreleased.

TechRadar says it's the best tablet, so of course, it must be the best... sorry man, in the real world sales sorta show more than one editors sponsored opinion. iPad is the number one tablet worldwide by any metric.


The phone example counters your strawman because it points out that a defining feature of a tablet is not a camera, but that a camera on a smartphone is a defining feature. The size of the devices are largely the reason: people don't walk about with a 13" slate taking photos, but with their smartphone always in their pocket and on them, they use that device to take photos.

It's still a better aspect of the iPad vs Surfaces... fact.

The Surface is absolutely 100% a tablet. It also serves the purpose of a laptop.

A poor tablet, say tablet users. A poor laptop, say laptop users. But most importantly, a poor experience, say owners, and it's all over these forums too.

The iPad Pro does not run full desktop applications. It has a mobile chip that is designed to cycle as heat dissipation is an issue. Benchmarks do not = real world performance.

And yet, people are still buying and using them, replacing Macs with them, redefining the computing world with them. It has the most powerful chip in a tablet today, the best designed mobile applications and an OS actually made from the ground up for tablets.. in other words, superior.


I have educated myself on the HD. Microsoft is doing what any company would by saying that an experienced technician should replace the HD. Nothing is stopping anyone from EASILY doing it themselves. This is much better than Apple fighting tooth and nail to stop people from repairing their own devices. And when it comes to the HD on an iPad, no, you cannot replace it.

Except the fact it's a proprietary design and NOT user replaceable. The storage can be replaced on a MacBook Pro too, by Apple ;-) .. same applies here. You don't need to replace it on iPad, it's reliable and rarely has issue lasting for even more than a decade. Compared to cheap, lousy flash used in Windows devices including the SP ;-)
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Gladly. The Surface Pen has much more trouble keeping the line straight during slow movements (the infamous “wobble”), the latency is bigger than the Pencil and the parallax effect is a bit larger. All these things are not important for taking notes, but if you want to do art - then they become quite significant.

There are plenty of videos to show that, like this one (you can see Pencil is better and this is before ProMotion and iOS13, both of which reduce Pencil latency even further):

Also, pay attention to angular curves the Surface Pen produces - maybe Microsoft fixed this in software by now, but still. The pen hardware in the new Surface Pro is the same - but I have to admit I haven't tried the new slim pen. I figure it's the same tech inside, but can't be sure.

- but the best are those from Brad Colbow. I recommend checking out his channel if you’re interested in tech for artists and why Surfaces are lacking in the art department, while the Pencil has even Wacom styluses beat.

In short - Pencil really has the Surface Pen beat when it comes to line quality and overal feel of drawing.
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You’re just straight up wrong there. In practice, the difference is quite noticeable - this is why professional artists use Wacom styluses and Apple Pencils in the vast majority.

👍

 

[Kal-037]

Fast charging is actually really bad for long term health of the battery and given Apple’s support cycle it’s wise for them to not support that. Especially since the upgrade cycle for iPads is way slower than iPhones. Even until this year they didn’t provide fast charging blocks in the box.

Do you use a 10w, 12w, or the 18w for your iPad. I’m wondering if me using 12w is enough and will keep my battery healthier longer.

 

[Kal-037]

Vote on whether you think the iPad design needs to evolve to include a built-in kickstand. The Surface Pro line has well designed kickstands that effectively disappear into the device when retracted and have close to limitless degrees of freedom.

I've owned every iPad since the first. I've developed software for them. I understand tablet use cases and the history. Apple ushered in a new category with the iPad. As Steve Jobs stated in the initial keynote, there had to be a reason for such a device to exist... a category in between a smartphone and a laptop. He talked about a set of things that the iPad could be better at than a smartphone or laptop, like surfing the Web, watching a movie, reading a book... and a few other things. For the most part, this is still true today when it comes to tablets in terms of the possibility of them being better at these things than other categories of devices.

But we're many years now into tablets, and to me, after seeing the Microsoft Surface Pro X, it beats the iPad Pro... to the point where Apple is now lagging in tablet innovation. There are some key areas where the Surface Pro X bests the iPad Pro:

• The overall design looks better and is more balanced than the iPad Pro. The iPad Pro is blocky and uninspired, although still rather nice and a bit thinner and lighter than the Surface Pro X. This is somewhat subjective I admit, but if we talk about design principles, like the fact it doesn't have a massive camera bump and one that is flush so the device can lay flat on the ground... the rounded edges, etc.
• The keyboard cover. No question here. It kills Apple's iPad keyboard cover or any third party one. It's got the best materials, has backlighting, is thin and light and has a large multi-touch glass trackpad (makes sense with the Windows software).
• The stylus with its hidden nest in the keyboard cover, effectively always charged status, and eraser tip bests Apple's.
• The kickstand. The iPad's lack of a kickstand is now at a point to be a detriment to it. Apple is trying to sell it as the only computer you'll need for a target market, but it certainly cannot function like that out of the box in terms of being a laptop replacement for those that it may do that for. And the third party options are pretty ridiculous: awkward and compromised, and particularly lacking in the degrees of freedom of the built-in Surface Pro kickstand. This latter kickstand is what fuels artists to create on the device... Apple is summarily beaten here in a big way.
• Fast charging. 80% battery charge in less than an hour for the Surface Pro X. iPad Pro cannot do this.
• Other cool things about the Surface Pro X. It has 2 USB C ports. It's also compatible with the Surface dial. It can have up to 16 GB of RAM. Its hard drive is easily accessible and replaceable by the User. Surface Pro X has a slightly larger display than the iPad Pro at 13" vs. 12.9".
• Some things the iPad Pro bests the Surface Pro X on. ProMotion display (120 hz refresh rate). Unknown what the Surface Pro X's is, but I assume it's not that good. iPad Pro has 600 nits for screen brightness, Surface Pro X 450. iPad Pro is lighter by about .3 lbs.

Disclaimer: I hate Windows and won't use it. But I admit as an Apple person that the Surface Pro X is compelling in the way I've described.

surface design has some neat attributes, but I thought a long while about iPad having a kick stand and I just don’t trust the longevity of them. As for design in general... I’m going to say it’s a tie as both are at their best with thinness, weight, power, build quality (yes the new iPP is built incredibly) I say that because I’ve seen every other iPad model bend easily and also see Samsung tablets bent...
Anyway, since both are two different companies, designs, OS’, types of devices... they are equal in my eyes at being the best in their respective categories.
I give the iPad one edge... no viruses. 😉😂✌️

 

[booksbooks]

Gladly. The Surface Pen has much more trouble keeping the line straight during slow movements (the infamous “wobble”), the latency is bigger than the Pencil and the parallax effect is a bit larger. All these things are not important for taking notes, but if you want to do art - then they become quite significant.

There are plenty of videos to show that, like this one (you can see Pencil is better and this is before ProMotion and iOS13, both of which reduce Pencil latency even further):

Also, pay attention to angular curves the Surface Pen produces - maybe Microsoft fixed this in software by now, but still. The pen hardware in the new Surface Pro is the same - but I have to admit I haven't tried the new slim pen. I figure it's the same tech inside, but can't be sure.

- but the best are those from Brad Colbow. I recommend checking out his channel if you’re interested in tech for artists and why Surfaces are lacking in the art department, while the Pencil has even Wacom styluses beat.

In short - Pencil really has the Surface Pen beat when it comes to line quality and overal feel of drawing.
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You’re just straight up wrong there. In practice, the difference is quite noticeable - this is why professional artists use Wacom styluses and Apple Pencils in the vast majority.

You posted a video from 2015.

 

[tarsins]

I did have a Surface Pro. I liked the kickstand. That was all. I sold it.
I have a Surface Book 2 because the idea of a detachable tablet and a pen appealed to me. It now sits folded in the corner and I RDP into it via either my MBP or iPad Pro when I need to do some Windows programming.

 

[kamikazeeMC]

You posted a video from 2015.

Even the video you linked points out the shortcomings of the Surface pen, how his been spoilt by the Apple Pencil and Wacom pen, if you’ve been using the latter two then moving to the Surface pen you will notice the issues and that over the years his been drawing less on a Surface.

 

[Digitalguy]

surface design has some neat attributes, but I thought a long while about iPad having a kick stand and I just don’t trust the longevity of them. As for design in general... I’m going to say it’s a tie as both are at their best with thinness, weight, power, build quality (yes the new iPP is built incredibly) I say that because I’ve seen every other iPad model bend easily and also see Samsung tablets bent...
Anyway, since both are two different companies, designs, OS’, types of devices... they are equal in my eyes at being the best in their respective categories.
I give the iPad one edge... no viruses. 😉😂✌

Kickstands in surface devices are very solid, I have had 3 of them... The reason why they are not good is they make the tablet too long on a table or on your leg when you attach the keyboard... The apple smart keyboard, which can hold the tablet, while less flexible, is more convenient.
The ipad pro 3rd gen is... very fragile, much more than other ipads, and I am certain Apple will try to address this by making the 4th gen stronger, as they did with iphone 6s and as they made thicker the iphone 11 pro to give more battery life... (function over form seems to be coming back at last...)

 

[Aydy]

How do I present my personal experience as statistical evidence.

Second, you commit strawmen by focusing in on one narrow aspect of a long list of things that are objective benefits of the Surface over the iPad.

And when it comes to a $265B company not considering something, the evidence for that is all over the place. Take the Apple Pencil, for instance. The butt of jokes that it looks like a bayonet stuck into the bottom of the iPad to charge it. A Pencil that loses its charge constantly, and required a byzantine method to charge it. This, in comparison to the Surface Pen that has a battery that lasts weeks to many months without needing to charge it. One that would wake the Surface at the click of a button and shoot directly into the Notes App. One that had multiple application support from the beginning.

Apple's Pencil was little more than a gimmick when it launched with hardly any Pencil support even months after launch, including effectively no support in many Apple Apps. And of the third party Apps that supported it, several were buggy with latency. Apple's own Apps also had very little support for it. Now, it's slightly better with the magnetic charging, but still loses its charge constantly and requires frequent charging. And the App support for it is still questionable.

Microsoft is ahead here with deep level pen support in applications, including things like being able to write with the pen and have that converted into text and put into cells, for instance, in Excel.

OP has a point. Apple Pencil is basic at best. Primitive even. The €129 asking price is ridiculously overpriced for what it is and does.

 

[RevTEG]

I’m a huge Apple/iPad “evangelist”... However, if the Surface Pro X could run PadOS and supported the Apple Pencil... I’d be all over it. But I’m just an iOS guy. I prefer my iOS workflow over MacOS. The Microsoft nano phone looks cool too! Bit never going android either.
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Does it? The sales or customer satisfaction vs. the Surface don't seem to tell that story. I'm sure it's a valid opinion, but I don't see any facts to support it...

Your opinion. iPad Pro is cleaner, sleeker etc. to me...

Most people would also argue it's innovation to fit the power of an iPad Pro into this bodyshell. And that in tablets, thinner and lighter is key to a superior experience...

..and how does the Surface devices cameras compare to that iPad? Boom... Apple innovation wins again..

The Surface is a detachable laptop more than it's a true tablet, and such it's official accessories are designed to aid this. Compared to a laptop keyboard it's actually a lot more flimsy and unusable. And using the trackpad on your lap with that stand would require you to have double length legs... ergonomic nightmare..

I'm yet to see anyone use it creatively in a way that impresses me beyond taking notes. The Pencil is wayyy more innovative, even if Gen 1 did have a silly way of charging. Again sales and customer satisfaction, as well as dedicated apps to support it are why I'd argue the Apple Pencil is king. Then again, it's not a stylus like the Surface's so it's maybe unfair to compare as the Pencil would win out due to its professional uses and industry leading graphical design capabilities..

Seems like it can and does to me..

The iPad Pro will get through a workday way easier on its battery than the Surface, Windows to thank for that...

Again, as Surface is a laptop competitor that's comparable to the entry level MacBook Pro which was slated for only having two.

Kind of the reasonable amount for a premium Windows ultrabook these days. Also slow, laptop RAM... iPad OS makes way more efficient use of it's limited RAM. The 1TB models of iPad Pro have 6GB RAM.

Not what I heard...

That's a Pro to some and a Con to others, as portability is often sought in choosing a tablet...

The OP is talking about the Surface Pro X... So to your very first point... The Surface Pro X hasn’t been out long enough to have a customer satisfaction rating to even compare to the iPad. So there‘s that..

 

[rowspaxe]

That is clearly incorrect, as you need a second ‘back’ behind the kickstand for when it is open. I will grant you it is only a little bit of room...

My point was that the back of the device was flush, allowing for a cover

The real question is: if a device had a built in stand would manufacturers choose to create back cases, knowing that most users won’t buy them?

users would not buy them as the smart cover type solutions are clearly inferior to the MS kickstand

 

[Digitalguy]

My point was that the back of the device was flush, allowing for a cover


users would not buy them as the smart cover type solutions are clearly inferior to the MS kickstand

MS kickstand is superior as long as you don't attach the keyboard, once you do, the smart keyboard becomes a better option in many instances

 

[fokmik]

Remember,as an person who attent to surface pro x QA, all the apps that runs windows 10 will be simulated on the surface x arm chip..so a lot of pro apps will run slower

 

[Digitalguy]

Remember,as an person who attent to surface pro x QA, all the apps that runs windows 10 will be simulated on the surface x arm chip..so a lot of pro apps will run slower

if the chip is powerful and the emulator well optimized, if they run say 10% slower it won't matter

 

[hancuriang]

I don’t understand why this is even a thread...
The device in question hasn’t even released yet and iPad Pro is from 2018. apple always make subpar devices in terms of ports and upgradeability since the first iphone yet it gets a high rating and people line up to buy.
I guess logically Windows win for the OS alone since it runs everything but people still buy ipads though..

But i agree ask folio sucks mainly for only two angles and no backlight. Not only that, the keyboard can’t type special characters and no esc. Not sure about built in kickstand since I‘d prefer to use a keyboard case. Drawing with the second angle is doable though, but it’s like the angle is at the bare minimum for the ipad to not topple over when you rest your arm on the screen while you draw.

 

[fokmik]

if the chip is powerful and the emulator well optimized, if they run say 10% slower it won't matter

10% is very optimistic..10% from what ? Intel quad core i7 10nm? Intel i3 8th gen? Intel core m3?
..think about it..it will run slow,especially pro apps

 

[muzzy996]

10% is very optimistic..10% from what ? Intel quad core i7 10nm? Intel i3 8th gen? Intel core m3?
..think about it..it will run slow,especially pro apps

Obviously it will run slower but it's a bit premature to be making predictions on just how much. We'll have to wait a few weeks for release and reviews.

I'll wait and watch the reviews for a couple of months before deciding for myself if a Pro X will be a keeper for me. I'm happy to accept certain compromises and a dip in performance is ok with me as long as its a shallow one - i care not what the percentage truly is vs X Y and Z, all i care about is perceived fluidity of the interface and the apps I work in. For me all I'm really looking for is an always connected tablet device that I can travel with that is more compact than my Windows mobile workstation but has full MS Office and the ability to allow me to annotate my large PDF files, my iPP can't do either and never will. As it stands the iPP is filling a niche for me when I travel but with some compromises in capabilities and productivity (for my needs anyway).

I'd rather not deal with tethering a Surface Pro 7 but might have to if the Pro X doesn't work out well for my needs. If the Pro X works out well I'll probably get rid of my 2017 iPP 12.9 and get a Mini 5 to fill my media consumption needs.

 

[aevan]

You posted a video from 2015.

Microsoft haven’t changed the underlying pen tech in their pens since then, basically since they switched away from Wacom. It’s understandable because most people don’t care. We have tested numerous styluses and all Surface pens in our studio (except the slim one), I can tell they act the same and are not so good for art as Wacom Pro Pens and the Apple Pencil.

Sorry buddy, it is how it is. You can wish it all you want, and Surfaces are sure nice devices, but their pen technology is just not as good for art. For note taking - sure, it’s all the same, but art? Nope. This is why almost no one uses a Surface Pro for art, while almost every digital artist out there is either on Wacom or iPad.

 

[nStyle]

From someone who owns a 10.5 iPad Pro with the Pencil and keyboard and everything you could possibly have on it...I'm kinda just fed up with this form factor overall. iOS/iPadOS is just too inherently restrictive for me.

I like where Microsoft is going by transitioning to ARM and offering a less restrictive operating system so I guess we'll see where it goes.

I feel like at this point we're all just suffering from "tiny detail exaggeration syndrome". The iPad hasn't really fundamentally changed since 2010. It's still about as useful or useless depending on how you look at it back then as it is today.

That's just my opinion anyway after having owned many MacBooks and iPads.

I see the iPad/tablet form factor for what it is and honestly I don't think the Pro X is going to be significantly different to warrant a platform switch. It's great for consumption and if you're an artist maybe (and for that I think Apple's Pencil is going to be significantly better for a while yet)...and I suppose it's better to travel with for someone with light computing needs...but the actual benefits end there. A proper laptop is more useful in most situations.

 

[Digitalguy]

10% is very optimistic..10% from what ? Intel quad core i7 10nm? Intel i3 8th gen? Intel core m3?
..think about it..it will run slow,especially pro apps

Of an 8th gen quad core i5. That's what Qualcomm engineers said. That's how 8Cx will run natively. SQ1 should run faster as it's a beefed up version of it. We don't know how much faster, but knowing Microsoft they know it will be compared to ipad pro so they will have probably made sure to be at least in the same ballpark (but the way for your information, thanks to 10th gen Intel SP7 is now faster than ipad pro 3rd gen). Your it will be slow is pure speculation.