iPad Pro iPad design: needs to significantly evolve. Surface Pro X has it beat.

[Digitalguy]

From someone who owns a 10.5 iPad Pro with the Pencil and keyboard and everything you could possibly have on it...I'm kinda just fed up with this form factor overall. iOS/iPadOS is just too inherently restrictive for me.

I like where Microsoft is going by transitioning to ARM and offering a less restrictive operating system so I guess we'll see where it goes.

I feel like at this point we're all just suffering from "tiny detail exaggeration syndrome". The iPad hasn't really fundamentally changed since 2010. It's still about as useful or useless depending on how you look at it back then as it is today.

That's just my opinion anyway after having owned many MacBooks and iPads.

I see the iPad/tablet form factor for what it is and honestly I don't think the Pro X is going to be significantly different to warrant a platform switch. It's great for consumption and if you're an artist maybe (and for that I think Apple's Pencil is going to be significantly better for a while yet)...and I suppose it's better to travel with for someone with light computing needs...but the actual benefits end there. A proper laptop is more useful in most situations.

I tend to agree for the most part... Office is still much better on Windows/Mac. File management too.
But ipad have their advantages too a complement laptops pretty well. Very few people can work 100% on an ipad. But for many it can be their on the go device, thanks to 4G (no mac has it and only some Windows laptops do) and compact size (there is no such thing as an 11in bezel-less laptop which is powerful and has good battery life), also thanks to the option of remote desktop software. Ipad has come a long way since 2010 and laptops have too. If you have professional needs and must have only one device a laptop is the best choice almost always. But having both is even better, at least for me. I have never been able to go on a business trip without a laptop (or even on holidays to be honest), but now I cannot do without bringing at least an ipad mini too...

 

[xraydoc]

I would like a kickstand on the iPad. It would actually be quite handy. The two different angles on the current keyboards for the iPad Pros helps somewhat.

The rest, however, like 16GB of RAM and multiple USB/HDMI/dock ports, isn’t really necessary on iPadOS for the most part. A second USB-C port might come in handy though.

There’s a huge difference between Windows, a desktop-centric OS, and iPadOS, as many others have stated. So usage model will be different... thus form will follow function and iPads will have fewer expansion ports than the Surface requires by necessity.

 

[aevan]

I feel like at this point we're all just suffering from "tiny detail exaggeration syndrome". The iPad hasn't really fundamentally changed since 2010. It's still about as useful or useless depending on how you look at it back then as it is today.

So you’re saying an iPad Pro with a Pencil, running iPadOS is just as useful as the iPad from 2010 and hasn’t fundamentally changed?

I’m sorry, but I find this is false on every single level. From design, capabilities and technology to input methods, software and even ports, literally every aspect of the iPad has changed in significant, paradigm shifting ways.

 

[TopherMan12]

So you’re saying an iPad Pro with a Pencil, running iPadOS is just as useful as the iPad from 2010 and hasn’t fundamentally changed?

I’m sorry, but I find this is false on every single level. From design, capabilities and technology to input methods, software and even ports, literally every aspect of the iPad has changed in significant, paradigm shifting ways.

This is just common sense.

 

[TheRealAlex]

Vote on whether you think the iPad design needs to evolve to include a built-in kickstand. The Surface Pro line has well designed kickstands that effectively disappear into the device when retracted and have close to limitless degrees of freedom.

I've owned every iPad since the first. I've developed software for them. I understand tablet use cases and the history. Apple ushered in a new category with the iPad. As Steve Jobs stated in the initial keynote, there had to be a reason for such a device to exist... a category in between a smartphone and a laptop. He talked about a set of things that the iPad could be better at than a smartphone or laptop, like surfing the Web, watching a movie, reading a book... and a few other things. For the most part, this is still true today when it comes to tablets in terms of the possibility of them being better at these things than other categories of devices.

But we're many years now into tablets, and to me, after seeing the Microsoft Surface Pro X, it beats the iPad Pro... to the point where Apple is now lagging in tablet innovation. There are some key areas where the Surface Pro X bests the iPad Pro:

• The overall design looks better and is more balanced than the iPad Pro. The iPad Pro is blocky and uninspired, although still rather nice and a bit thinner and lighter than the Surface Pro X. This is somewhat subjective I admit, but if we talk about design principles, like the fact it doesn't have a massive camera bump and one that is flush so the device can lay flat on the ground... the rounded edges, etc.
• The keyboard cover. No question here. It kills Apple's iPad keyboard cover or any third party one. It's got the best materials, has backlighting, is thin and light and has a large multi-touch glass trackpad (makes sense with the Windows software).
• The stylus with its hidden nest in the keyboard cover, effectively always charged status, and eraser tip bests Apple's.
• The kickstand. The iPad's lack of a kickstand is now at a point to be a detriment to it. Apple is trying to sell it as the only computer you'll need for a target market, but it certainly cannot function like that out of the box in terms of being a laptop replacement for those that it may do that for. And the third party options are pretty ridiculous: awkward and compromised, and particularly lacking in the degrees of freedom of the built-in Surface Pro kickstand. This latter kickstand is what fuels artists to create on the device... Apple is summarily beaten here in a big way.
• Fast charging. 80% battery charge in less than an hour for the Surface Pro X. iPad Pro cannot do this.
• Other cool things about the Surface Pro X. It has 2 USB C ports. It's also compatible with the Surface dial. It can have up to 16 GB of RAM. Its hard drive is easily accessible and replaceable by the User. Surface Pro X has a slightly larger display than the iPad Pro at 13" vs. 12.9".
• Some things the iPad Pro bests the Surface Pro X on. ProMotion display (120 hz refresh rate). Unknown what the Surface Pro X's is, but I assume it's not that good. iPad Pro has 600 nits for screen brightness, Surface Pro X 450. iPad Pro is lighter by about .3 lbs.

Disclaimer: I hate Windows and won't use it. But I admit as an Apple person that the Surface Pro X is compelling in the way I've described.

100% Wrong, thin and light laptops exists and it’s a race to the bottom. That’s a battle Apple does not want to engage in. Let Microsoft play out its strategy, but Apple won’t get pulled into that Lossing battle.
Apple is playing on its own terms. Apple is the 800lb Gorilla everyone else is adopting and playing catch-up with Apple.

I choose an iPad Pro Over a Surface Product for various reason, Microsoft can not even begin to Offer.

#1. Security
#2. Apple store support
#3. Apple eco system
#4. iOS or iPad OS, it’s just better I do not want another Windows 10 Machine
#5. Apps just work on iOS aka iPadOS
#6. iMessage (friends would disown me)
#7. Apple pencil it’s silky smooth and accurate
#8. Industry Standards so many places Professionals just use iPad Pro as a Drawing Device for Digital Media or Music.
#9. Resale Value an iPad Pro will hold a lot more of its value than any Windows product.

So while a Surface Product May look like a nice try From Microsoft that’s all it is a nice try. We already have Mouse Keyboard support USB-C external drive support a, File system. Heck 5 years ago. The current iPad Pro 11 would be inconceivable as a Holy Grail product and here I am typing on it.

 

[Digitalguy]

100% Wrong, thin and light laptops exists and it’s a race to the bottom. That’s a battle Apple does not want to engage in. Let Microsoft play out its strategy, but Apple won’t get pulled into that Lossing battle.
Apple is playing on its own terms. Apple is the 800lb Gorilla everyone else is adopting and playing catch-up with Apple.

I choose an iPad Pro Over a Surface Product for various reason, Microsoft can not even begin to Offer.

#1. Security
#2. Apple store support
#3. Apple eco system
#4. iOS or iPad OS, it’s just better I do not want another Windows 10 Machine
#5. Apps just work on iOS aka iPadOS
#6. iMessage (friends would disown me)
#7. Apple pencil it’s silky smooth and accurate
#8. Industry Standards so many places Professionals just use iPad Pro as a Drawing Device for Digital Media or Music.
#9. Resale Value an iPad Pro will hold a lot more of its value than any Windows product.

So while a Surface Product May look like a nice try From Microsoft that’s all it is a nice try. We already have Mouse Keyboard support USB-C external drive support a, File system. Heck 5 years ago. The current iPad Pro 11 would be inconceivable as a Holy Grail product and here I am typing on it.

While some of your points are valid, they don't make ipad pro better than a laptop in any situations. In many cases a laptop is still better (and surface is a laptop). Apple ecosystem is relevant only if you are inside (not if don't have an iphone or a Mac for instance), and imessage is not a thing in Europe (where whatsapp dominates). Most people are not artists. I do music and sure I am one of those that has gone almost ipad only for music, but I am in music forums and most people are on mac or windows... I am looked at like a "strange guy" that went with an inferior system... (which is true, but I take the lesser apps for the advantages in terms of portability e versatility). Pencil is best for drawing but for taking notes or annotating ntrig, wacom etc. are as good.
And as I said above, file management is miles better on a laptop, as is Office. And most business software don't run on ipados (I would love to, but it will not happen).
Ipads have several advantages, and complement well a laptop, but you probably would choose an ipad because you have a laptop already (or you have some pc at work anyway). If someone wants only one device (I don't, I am a multidevice person), an ipad alone is not enough for many things, especially professionally speaking. There are always exceptions, but Ipad only people are more the exception than the rule...

 

[TheRealAlex]

While some of your points are valid, they don't make ipad pro better than a laptop in any situations. In many cases a laptop is still better (and surface is a laptop). Apple ecosystem is relevant only if you are inside (not if don't have an iphone or a Mac for instance), and imessage is not a thing in Europe (where whatsapp dominates). Most people are not artists. I do music and sure I am one of those that has gone almost ipad only for music, but I am in music forums and most people are on mac or windows... I am looked at like a "strange guy" that went with an inferior system... (which is true, but I take the lesser apps for the advantages in terms of portability e versatility). Pencil is best for drawing but for taking notes or annotating ntrig, wacom etc. are as good.
And as I said above, file management is miles better on a laptop, as is Office. And most business software don't run on ipados (I would love to, but it will not happen).
Ipads have several advantages, and complement well a laptop, but you probably would choose an ipad because you have a laptop already (or you have some pc at work anyway). If someone wants only one device (I don't, I am a multidevice person), an ipad alone is not enough for many things, especially professionally speaking. There are always exceptions, but Ipad only people are more the exception than the rule...

The argument can be made in reveres, to me it is illogical to call upon Apple to be more like Microsoft or a Microsoft product. When infact Microsoft has spent the last 10+ years trying to be more like Apple. Opening up retail locations, offering their own branded Surface products.
Microsoft managers must have been saying gee, we should be more like Apple.

and here we are on the iPad forums, and someone’s great idea, is to call upon Apple to be more like Microsoft.

Steve Jobs, just rolled over in his grave.

 

[booksbooks]

Even the video you linked points out the shortcomings of the Surface pen, how his been spoilt by the Apple Pencil and Wacom pen, if you’ve been using the latter two then moving to the Surface pen you will notice the issues and that over the years his been drawing less on a Surface.

The Surface Penand the software has changed since then. They added angled, edge drawing, low latency, and higher pressure sensitivity. Both the Apple Pencil and the Surface Pen are effectively identical in this regard.

 

[nStyle]

So you’re saying an iPad Pro with a Pencil, running iPadOS is just as useful as the iPad from 2010 and hasn’t fundamentally changed?

I’m sorry, but I find this is false on every single level. From design, capabilities and technology to input methods, software and even ports, literally every aspect of the iPad has changed in significant, paradigm shifting ways.

Fundamentally, I still feel as if the iPad is a better consumption/companion device than a productive one and I find the converse to be true for a laptop. I'm not denying that there hasn't been strides made to shift that balance, but it's just not been enough for me.

 

[booksbooks]

Fundamentally, I still feel as if the iPad is a better consumption/companion device than a productive one and I find the converse to be true for a laptop. I'm not denying that there hasn't been strides made to shift that balance, but it's just not been enough for me.

The iPad is a giant iPod Touch.

It’s gotten more functional over the years but this is really what it is. A giant iPod Touch. A grid of icons that fundamentally is the same as Palm OS.

 

[aevan]

The Surface Penand the software has changed since then. They added angled, edge drawing, low latency, and higher pressure sensitivity. Both the Apple Pencil and the Surface Pen are effectively identical in this regard.

Well, you can keep thinking that if it makes you feel better, sure.

 

[booksbooks]

Well, you can keep thinking that if it makes you feel better, sure.

How much pressure sensitivity and latency does the Apple Pencil have?
How much pressure sensitivity and latency does the new Surface Pen have?

 

[eyeseeyou]

If the ipad was a laptop first and a tablet 2nd then a kickstand would make a lot of sense since it's really only useful in laptop mode.

 

[aevan]

How much pressure sensitivity and latency does the Apple Pencil have?
How much pressure sensitivity and latency does the new Surface Pen have?

Apple does not disclose pressure sensitivity information, because it's irrelevant and the fact that you're focusing on that shows me that you don't have actual knowledge and experience about digital styluses. I've been dealing with them for more than a decade, and have been following the advances in industry with great passion and interest, both professionally and as a personal hobby. Pressure sensitivity is like megapixels on cameras - at the end of the day, it's not the most important metric, which is why I suppose Apple is not disclosing theirs.

Any serious digital artist will tell you it's not about specs (the latest Wacom Pro Pen (Pro Pen 2) has 8K levels of pressure sensitivity and yet you won't feel any difference compared to the old 4K one, it's just a marketing number). The real thing is the pressure curve and intelligent pressure curve smoothing, it's how the hardware and software interpret your actions and immitate real life drawing. Apple Pencil has perhaps the best pressure control in the industry at the moment, beating even the flagship Wacom Pro Pen 2, which is also outstanding. In fact, in reality, if you have a great pressure curve and pressure interpretation, you don't need more than 256 levels of pressure (which is what the first Ntrig had). It's all about how these pressure levels are interpreted.

As for latency, Apple Pencil on iPadOS has 9ms latency (11ms with 3rd party apps, not to go into details) and the latest Surface Pen has 21ms latency. They are both good now, you probably won't care much about that difference in real life, but again, it's not the latency itself, it's how the line is constructed and how the movements are interpreted. I am not sure if it's the hardware or software, but again, Apple Pencil produces some of the best, most intentional lines in the industry, with Wacom Pro Pen being very close - or the same - and Surface Pen being a bit behind (still usable, of course, but their lines still suffer from wobble at lower speeds and slight angularity at higer speeds. My guess is that the first issue is hardware and second software but I don't know and don't really care).

Since we're going in circles I will say that, as a package, I'm a fan of Surface devices. They are well designed and I like them as products. You can certainly, without a doubt, create great art on them. However, I expect a big company like Microsoft to do better (just like I expect Apple to) and this is why every year I'm hoping they will create a Surface Pen that is better for artists. I don't know if they will, but if we pretend it's the same as current industry champions just because we want our favorite products to be best at everything, we'll actually never get there. So believe what you will, and cite numbers all you want, it is what it is.

 

[johannnn]

Its hard drive is easily accessible and replaceable by the User.

Does people seriously care about this? Tech moves forward so quickly, there's no way I'll have any tech more than 3 years. How often does SSDs break within 3 years?

I actually see this as a downside. This means they could have made the machine thinner and lighter if it wasn't removable.

 

[Freakonomics101]

Fast charging is actually really bad for long term health of the battery and given Apple’s support cycle it’s wise for them to not support that. Especially since the upgrade cycle for iPads is way slower than iPhones. Even until this year they didn’t provide fast charging blocks in the box.

Couldn’t agree more. Wireless charging makes the phone become rather warm.

 

[Digitalguy]

The argument can be made in reveres, to me it is illogical to call upon Apple to be more like Microsoft or a Microsoft product. When infact Microsoft has spent the last 10+ years trying to be more like Apple. Opening up retail locations, offering their own branded Surface products.
Microsoft managers must have been saying gee, we should be more like Apple.

and here we are on the iPad forums, and someone’s great idea, is to call upon Apple to be more like Microsoft.

Steve Jobs, just rolled over in his grave.

Man, how is this relevant to what I said????
I made some points and you didn't even touch them. The argument in reverse? What you said has nothing to do with what I said!
Why you guys have to always turn things into Apple vs Microsoft?
I know I am on Macrumors and there are a lot of Apple fanboys here, and I am also on other websites where there are a Microsoft fanboys who hate on Apple. But how sad is the world with people like this?
Who cares who copied who? The surface exist because the ipad was created, and the ipad pro exists because of the Surface. And that's a good thing! Competition pushes companies to make better products!
I am happy to take the best of Windows laptops and the best of Ipads to fulfill my needs. And I hope both Microsoft and Apple will keep making great product to win us, consumers.
You guys are a waste of time to talk to, since you don't listen to arguments and don't even address them, you just try to turn the discussion into a defense of your favorite brand

 

[CrazyForCashews]

Completely disagree.

The redesigned iPad Pros still look better than the Surface Pro X.

 

[muzzy996]

Does people seriously care about this? Tech moves forward so quickly, there's no way I'll have any tech more than 3 years. How often does SSDs break within 3 years?

I actually see this as a downside. This means they could have made the machine thinner and lighter if it wasn't removable.

It’s not about breakage. The goal is for one to save a few hundred bucks buying a smaller storage capacity now and then a year or two down the line upgrade to a faster and larger capacity drive for less. SSD’s only get faster and cheaper per gig year after year so it makes sense from that standpoint. At the same time the only variation in production would be which outsourced drive is placed into the unit which could cut down on the production costs of the tablet.

The Pro X is smack dab in the middle of a current gen iPad Pro and an iPhone 11 in terms of thickness so it’s plenty thin enough already.

 

[StellarVixen]

I am listening to the same story every year.


"Surface this, Surface that...iPad is doomed, yada, yada..."

...and iPad keeps selling like hotcakes, while Surface is having same market share for years.


Some reality check before writing such sensational posts wouldn't hurt. Let's start from this: Surface X is not iPad competitor. Those are two devices in their own category.

 

[muzzy996]

I am listening to the same story every year.


"Surface this, Surface that...iPad is doomed, yada, yada..."

...and iPad keeps selling like hotcakes, while Surface is having same market share for years.


Some reality check before writing such sensational posts wouldn't hurt.

Yup neither will go away, they each serve their purpose so there’s no need to sensationalize things.

 

[jclardy]

The iPad should get a kickstand for the sole reason of increasing portability. The iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard case make the iPad Pro nearly as thick as a MacBook Pro. Putting the hinge on the body means the Smart Keyboard doesn't have to wrap around the device like a book anymore.

 

[Digitalguy]

The iPad should get a kickstand for the sole reason of increasing portability. The iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard case make the iPad Pro nearly as thick as a MacBook Pro. Putting the hinge on the body means the Smart Keyboard doesn't have to wrap around the device like a book anymore.

it's a matter of trade-offs, personally I don't think it's a good idea, as the keyboard would no longer work as a cover, or if so it would take much more space, like a surface. And the ipad would still be as thick as with the current smart keyboard (you would have to make it thicker to add a kickstand anyway) and the keyboard would be hanging when you pick it up. Having said that I prefer the previous generation smart keyboard as it's lighter and makes the ipad more balanced and usable on your lap.

 

[booksbooks]

I am listening to the same story every year.


"Surface this, Surface that...iPad is doomed, yada, yada..."

...and iPad keeps selling like hotcakes, while Surface is having same market share for years.


Some reality check before writing such sensational posts wouldn't hurt. Let's start from this: Surface X is not iPad competitor. Those are two devices in their own category.

Strawman. This post has never said the iPad is doomed. It’s about comparing a feature and a few others against the iPad and asking about those coming to iPad, and innovation.

It says nothing about sales predictions either.

 

[Arquet]

If the new ipad pros came with 2 usb c ports, even if the a13x is a slight upgrade, i would still buy that in a heartbeat.

im super tempted by the surface pro X as well, but its on a qualcomm and windows isnt made for touch. So im waiting for reviews before i buy it. Running full windows apps is tempting as hell because i use autocad and office at work, plus, im taking some programming lessons as a hobby at night, being able to run a compiler and visual studio is nice.

But it runs qualcomm so who knows if full desktop apps will run on it.

That said, windows is not a touch OS at its core... i tried the surface pro 6 before and it just doesnt seem intuitive in terms of note taking on the fly or freehand drafting. I use goodnotes 5 and morpholio trace alot, and concepts when i need to draft some ideas.

Waiting on reviews now...