iPad Pro iPad design: needs to significantly evolve. Surface Pro X has it beat.

[Kal-037]

The ipad pro 3rd gen is... very fragile, much more than other ipads, and I am certain Apple will try to address this by making the 4th gen stronger, as they did with iphone 6s and as they made thicker the iphone 11 pro to give more battery life... (function over form seems to be coming back at last...)

on paper yes because 2mm is thinner and thin bends... 😉 *but barely.
I’ve never seen an issue (I’ve only heard a complaints here on this website.) There are no bends at all my personal one, or Apple Stores and Best Buy (when working at Best Buy I never had a single return for a bent or warped iPad.)
It’s getting old with this #BendGate crap too it is way too over blown of an issue, because anything that’s that is thin is going to bend even 7075 Aluminum will still bend too... it’ll be a little bit harder but we’re talking tiny percentages My Air 2 and IPad Pro both can get bent or broken in half like nothing. Go to YouTube and search bend tests for Air 2-current Ipad.

I’m not Doubting anybody’s problems just was saying it is not a huge issue like everyone makes it out to be.

 

[Digitalguy]

on paper yes because 2mm is thinner and thin bends... 😉 *but barely.
I’ve never seen an issue (I’ve only heard a complaints here on this website.) There are no bends at all my personal one, or Apple Stores and Best Buy (when working at Best Buy I never had a single return for a bent or warped iPad.)
It’s getting old with this #BendGate crap too it is way too over blown of an issue, because anything that’s that is thin is going to bend even 7075 Aluminum will still bend too... it’ll be a little bit harder but we’re talking tiny percentages My Air 2 and IPad Pro both can bent bent or broken in half like nothing. Go to YouTube and search bend tests for Air 2-current Ipad.

I’m not Doubting anybody’s problems just was saying it is not a huge issue like everyone makes it out to be.

just go and look the jerryrig videos of ipad mini 5 vs ipad pro. Ipad mini 5 is a very thin device but Zach didn't even manage to break it and he is a strong guy, while the pro broke in half like a biscuit

 

[rowspaxe]

Completely disagree.

The redesigned iPad Pros still look better than the Surface Pro X.

not wrapped in a smart case!
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I am listening to the same story every year.


"Surface this, Surface that...iPad is doomed, yada, yada..."

...and iPad keeps selling like hotcakes, while Surface is having same market share for years.


Some reality check before writing such sensational posts wouldn't hurt. Let's start from this: Surface X is not iPad competitor. Those are two devices in their own category.

Many ipads now sell for 329 dollars

 

[aevan]

just go and look the jerryrig videos of ipad mini 5 vs ipad pro. Ipad mini 5 is a very thin device but Zach didn't even manage to break it and he is a strong guy, while the pro broke in half like a biscuit

If I ever get an iPad that I intend to break with my arms, I will take that into account. Fortunately for me, I am not into breaking devices like Jerryrigeverything, more using them as they are intended to be used, so I'm good. My 3rd gen iPad Pro has served me great for almost a year, I've been using it everywhere, carrying it around in bags and backpacks.... still as straight as the day I got it. Probably my most favorite Apple device.
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It’s about comparing a feature and a few others against the iPad and asking about those coming to iPad, and innovation.

Well, the latest iPad Pros, with ProMotion, True Tone, Liquid Retina, Pencil 2, insane A12X - are all about innovation. So is Surface X in many ways, but I still find it lacking in many areas to iPad Pro.

 

[Kal-037]

just go and look the jerryrig videos of ipad mini 5 vs ipad pro. Ipad mini 5 is a very thin device but Zach didn't even manage to break it and he is a strong guy, while the pro broke in half like a biscuit

I have... people are not accounting or just forgetting basic physics or “Deflection” that’s in play here.

An object that is thin But shorter in length won’t bend as easily as a longer one that is also thin.
trying to karate chop a 3’ board va 1’ board... (I’ve tried, and the 3’ gets broken more easily while the smaller one doesn’t.)

Explanation of “Deflection”...


“When one grabs a twig and tries to break it, the ends are pulled together to bow the stick till it breaks.
The deflection (‘bending’) of a stick is proportional to the cube of its length. So, with the same force, a stick of length 𝐿
will be deflected 8 times less than a stick of length 2𝐿 with the same force.
Now, one side of a bent twig is stretched and the other side is contracted. This stretching/contraction is proportional to the deflection, and when it reaches a limit (Breaking stress), the twig breaks.
So what's happening here is that as you shorten the twig, you lose the capacity to generate deflection, and thus it becomes harder to break.”
-PSE.com

*Not being condescending here... but if you do a google search or talk to a physics professor it/they will say and explain the same thing.

so in fact the newer iPads are just as strong as the 10.5” pro. As the 10.5” bends just as easily in the video compared to the newer one with Jerryrig.

Again, the fact the smaller pro bends and breaks as easily as the new Pros proves they are no weaker than their predecessors... and I’d argue maybe even stronger by a tiny marginal amount.

 

[booksbooks]

If I ever get an iPad that I intend to break with my arms, I will take that into account. Fortunately for me, I am not into breaking devices like Jerryrigeverything, more using them as they are intended to be used, so I'm good. My 3rd gen iPad Pro has served me great for almost a year, I've been using it everywhere, carrying it around in bags and backpacks.... still as straight as the day I got it. Probably my most favorite Apple device.
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Well, the latest iPad Pros, with ProMotion, True Tone, Liquid Retina, Pencil 2, insane A12X - are all about innovation. So is Surface X in many ways, but I still find it lacking in many areas to iPad Pro.

How specifically is it lacking compared to the iPad Pro.
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I have... people are not accounting or just forgetting basic physics or “Deflection” that’s in play here.

An object that is thin But shorter in length won’t bend as easily as a longer one that is also thin.
trying to karate chop a 3’ board va 1’ board... (I’ve tried, and the 3’ gets broken more easily while the smaller one doesn’t.)

Explanation of “Deflection”...


“When one grabs a twig and tries to break it, the ends are pulled together to bow the stick till it breaks.
The deflection (‘bending’) of a stick is proportional to the cube of its length. So, with the same force, a stick of length 𝐿
will be deflected 8 times less than a stick of length 2𝐿 with the same force.
Now, one side of a bent twig is stretched and the other side is contracted. This stretching/contraction is proportional to the deflection, and when it reaches a limit (Breaking stress), the twig breaks.
So what's happening here is that as you shorten the twig, you lose the capacity to generate deflection, and thus it becomes harder to break.”
-PSE.com

*Not being condescending here... but if you do a google search or talk to a physics professor it/they will say and explain the same thing.

so in fact the newer iPads are just as strong as the 10.5” pro. As the 10.5” bends just as easily in the video compared to the newer one with Jerryrig.

Again, the fact the smaller pro bends and breaks as easily as the new Pros proves they are no weaker than their predecessors... and I’d argue maybe even stronger by a tiny marginal amount.

I dropped my iPad Pro and was surprised by how much damage their was: the aluminum really bent badly. Like cheap pop can style. I had the Apple keyboard cover on and it was dropped from waist height.

Also, Apple has faced criticism over the iPad Pro, in some cases, having a slight visible bend in the body from new.

From my experience and looking at drop tests, it’s a fragile device.

 

[booksbooks]

Microsoft haven’t changed the underlying pen tech in their pens since then, basically since they switched away from Wacom. It’s understandable because most people don’t care. We have tested numerous styluses and all Surface pens in our studio (except the slim one), I can tell they act the same and are not so good for art as Wacom Pro Pens and the Apple Pencil.

Sorry buddy, it is how it is. You can wish it all you want, and Surfaces are sure nice devices, but their pen technology is just not as good for art. For note taking - sure, it’s all the same, but art? Nope. This is why almost no one uses a Surface Pro for art, while almost every digital artist out there is either on Wacom or iPad. Deal with it.

WRONG.

• 2012: first generation. Magnetic attachment to a Surface device.
• 2014: MS moves to Ntrig Pen technology. 256 levels of pressure on the tip.
• 2015: new version of the Pen. Latency drops to 45 MS. Paired with the Surface Pro 4: 1024 levels of pressure on its tip.
• 2017: NEW VERSION of the Pen. 4096 levels of pressure with 1024 levels of TILT sensitivity, which was not available on previous generations. It has 21 milliseconds of latency.

Now, here's an artist's review from 2017. "Overall, when it comes to drawing with the Surface Pen, it's very enjoyable. Both [Apple Pencil and Surface Pen] are very capable, both are very capable devices, they are very evenly matched... however if you want to do a bit more... personally I would recommend the Surface Pro because of the desktop os and the desktop functionality."

 

[booksbooks]

Review of iPad Pro and Surface Pro.

"Didn't feel intuitive... didn't feel natural... the glass started to accumulate... microabrasions. When the [Apple] Pencil would catch these small little nicks, it would skip and you would feel that. It wasn't ideal for drawing."

"The heat can accumulate over time and you can feel it off of the screen and the back of the iPad."

"One thing I've gotten from feedback from professional people... the device didn't really give them the power of what Photoshop offered in terms of the rendering techniques they wanted to do..."

On Surface Pro: "The glass I do like quite a bit. Because the nib has a little bit of a softer rubber to it... it doesn't necessarily scratch into the glass [like on the iPad]."

"I feel like this is a much better device a a replacement for your computer".

And for anyone about to post: BUT, BUT... Adobe is bringing the real Photoshop to iPad! Ya!

LOL. Then reality hits. It was supposed to be available this year in 2019, announced all the way back at the Max conference in 2018. And there's reality:

Photoshop CC for iPad may not be what you’re expecting

“Feature-wise, it feels like a beefed-up cloud-based version of their existing iPad apps and not ‘real Photoshop’ as advertised,” one tester, who declined to be named, told the site.

"According to Belsky, the feature set that “Rocket” testers have been using isn’t the same as what will be available in the final release. Even so, he concedes that some features Photoshop pros might assume they’ll find in the iPad app won’t necessarily be present. Instead, Adobe plans to build out functionality over time."

In other words, vapourware.

Photoshop CC For iPad May Not Be What You're Expecting

The

www.slashgear.com

 

[omelet1978]

I personally like the keyboard on the Surface Pro tablets.

Rather than build a stand into the iPad, just a keyboard case that is similar to that and of high quality. I've seen a couple on Amazon but they looked a bit cheap. The keyboard folio is my biggest frustration with the iPad Pro since it's not very good for long term typing. If they just came out with a better one (this is one option for that) it would solve a lot of problems.

Sorry if someone mentioned this earlier, I did not read through all 5 pages of this thread lol.

 

[subjonas]

The kickstand is nice but there are tradeoffs so I’m not sure. Actually if I had my choice, for my 12.9” ipp I’d rather have a fixed keyboard base with a display that folded back 180 degrees. This is for three reasons: 1) I use the keyboard more often than not, 2) at 12.9” I don’t use it casually even as a tablet so I don’t mind the permanent weight, and 3) I get very annoyed with the floppy keyboard.

 

[Farrellcollie]

I don't care so much about a kick stand -but I do want a detachable keyboard with a track pad and the ability to use the mouse function properly and not just the half-assed implementation apple has now

 

[booksbooks]

The kickstand is nice but there are tradeoffs so I’m not sure. Actually if I had my choice, for my 12.9” ipp I’d rather have a fixed keyboard base with a display that folded back 180 degrees. This is for three reasons: 1) I use the keyboard more often than not, 2) at 12.9” I don’t use it casually even as a tablet so I don’t mind the permanent weight, and 3) I get very annoyed with the floppy keyboard.

What tradeoffs are there with the built-in kickstand?

 

[subjonas]

What tradeoffs are there with the built-in kickstand?

From what I can see, the tradeoffs are: added weight and thickness of the kickstand and hinge, takes up more table space with a keyboard cover folded out, probably not as stable on uneven surfaces, moving parts increase risk of breakage, and probably added R&D and manufacturing costs will be passed on to the customer. It adds a great benefit too, but it just depends on the person whether it wins out. I think if there were only benefits and zero tradeoffs, Apple probably would have added it.

 

[richinaus]

From what I can see, the tradeoffs are: added weight and thickness of the kickstand and hinge, takes up more table space with a keyboard cover folded out, probably not as stable on uneven surfaces, moving parts increase risk of breakage, and probably added R&D and manufacturing costs will be passed on to the customer. It adds a great benefit too, but it just depends on the person whether it wins out. I think if there were only benefits and zero tradeoffs, Apple probably would have added it.

and for me every trade off is worth it. It is the single most annoying thing not having a flexible kickstand on the iPad [I use it primarily for drawing at work]. I use a marker to prop up my iPad at the right angle as I can't stand the covers.

 

[kamikazeeMC]

Review of iPad Pro and Surface Pro.

Haven't watched this one, thanks. Some good insight.

"didn't feel natural... the glass started to accumulate... microabrasions."

Ideally products should come perfect out of the box, but he was able to address this with a screen protector, maybe people will make softer nibs for the Pencil, I've read you can cover the nib with something. Then again this is a preference regarding feeling (scratching the screen to which you can feel is a problem) and other people are completely fine with this. What he couldn't change was the pressure sensitivity of the Surface Pen where he liked the Wacom and Apple Pencil more.

"the device didn't really give them the power of what Photoshop offered in terms of the rendering techniques they wanted to do"

He goes on further to explain with investment of time and skill you could get similar quality. Photoshop has been out for a long time, people are just use to workflow so naturally you will get more out of it. As for Photoshop on iPad it can stay vaporware for all I care, I'm keen to get into the Affinity suite. Maybe with time they can cover the gap with Adobe.

"I feel like this is a much better device a a replacement for your computer"

As it should be, it's running a desktop OS. I don't think nor should the iPad be a replacement. Some people are able to get away with the restrictions of iOS and make it their only computer. The downside of desktop class applications on a tablet device, the UI and UX aren't fully catered to touch, relying on keyboard shortcuts for efficiency.

Some other points he made (I'm looking at this from an art perspective).

• He found himself using the Surface as a sit down computer doing everyday tasks more, and taking it less on location to actually draw with.
• The Surface Pen is still not as good as the Wacom and Pencil (and this was the gen 1 Pencil he was using, Gen 2 is down to 9ms under iOS 13 seems you bring up the Surface Pen specs so much).
• The stylus held the Surface back, couldn't get the quality he wanted in his art unless he connected a tablet (to a tablet haha).
• The iPad was very comparable to Wacom devices.

 

[Kal-037]

How specifically is it lacking compared to the iPad Pro.
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I dropped my iPad Pro and was surprised by how much damage their was: the aluminum really bent badly. Like cheap pop can style. I had the Apple keyboard cover on and it was dropped from waist height.

Also, Apple has faced criticism over the iPad Pro, in some cases, having a slight visible bend in the body from new.

From my experience and looking at drop tests, it’s a fragile device.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not implying it is a super device but I am saying that this device is not made of weaker aluminum or glass.
I’m just tired of all the people telling others not to buy the iPads because they are more breakable than paper...
when that’s not true... it’s possible iPads can bend, but the new ones won’t just suddenly bend by itself.

For instance my iPad Air 2 and 2016 iPad Pro are warped despite being in good cases and treated like babies. But the back of the Air 2 did get scratched terribly when I had a Best Buy employee install a protector instead of myself and he slid the iPad on the table and then as I lifted it, the back was scratched so badly that it looked like an eagle took it’s claws to it.
The new iPads are as tough/weak as other thin iPads... Bendgate has done much more damage than just informing people about potential damage.
It actually has invaded everybody’s subconscious due to seeing those non-stop posts and comments whether legitimate or not... and we often don’t realize it. *not saying that’s occurring with you, but it happens to a large majority of people (including myself.) It’s a similar effect to being a hypochondriac but everyone can experience it at times.

I just want people to remember logic, common sense, and physics still exist, and should be thought about before just believing every “iPad bent” post or thread.

 

[zhenya]

Review of iPad Pro and Surface Pro.

"Didn't feel intuitive... didn't feel natural... the glass started to accumulate... microabrasions. When the [Apple] Pencil would catch these small little nicks, it would skip and you would feel that. It wasn't ideal for drawing."

"The heat can accumulate over time and you can feel it off of the screen and the back of the iPad."

"One thing I've gotten from feedback from professional people... the device didn't really give them the power of what Photoshop offered in terms of the rendering techniques they wanted to do..."

On Surface Pro: "The glass I do like quite a bit. Because the nib has a little bit of a softer rubber to it... it doesn't necessarily scratch into the glass [like on the iPad]."

"I feel like this is a much better device a a replacement for your computer".

And for anyone about to post: BUT, BUT... Adobe is bringing the real Photoshop to iPad! Ya!

LOL. Then reality hits. It was supposed to be available this year in 2019, announced all the way back at the Max conference in 2018. And there's reality:

Photoshop CC for iPad may not be what you’re expecting

“Feature-wise, it feels like a beefed-up cloud-based version of their existing iPad apps and not ‘real Photoshop’ as advertised,” one tester, who declined to be named, told the site.

"According to Belsky, the feature set that “Rocket” testers have been using isn’t the same as what will be available in the final release. Even so, he concedes that some features Photoshop pros might assume they’ll find in the iPad app won’t necessarily be present. Instead, Adobe plans to build out functionality over time."

In other words, vapourware.

Photoshop CC For iPad May Not Be What You're Expecting

The

www.slashgear.com

You are still stuck on the ‘spec wars’ like it’s 1999 and not realizing that it’s the actual experience of using the device that matters. AEVan clearly has a deep understanding of using both systems and you do not. My experience as an artist using both devices mirrors exactly their comments. Your attached video means nothing because a basic capacitive stylus, or my finger for that matter, are fully capable of drawing gigantic crayon lines like that. It’s when you actually try to use the device for fine detail that the experience of using the Surface pen falls apart. Specs or not.

 

[booksbooks]

Haven't watched this one, thanks. Some good insight.


Ideally products should come perfect out of the box, but he was able to address this with a screen protector, maybe people will make softer nibs for the Pencil, I've read you can cover the nib with something. Then again this is a preference regarding feeling (scratching the screen to which you can feel is a problem) and other people are completely fine with this. What he couldn't change was the pressure sensitivity of the Surface Pen where he liked the Wacom and Apple Pencil more.


He goes on further to explain with investment of time and skill you could get similar quality. Photoshop has been out for a long time, people are just use to workflow so naturally you will get more out of it. As for Photoshop on iPad it can stay vaporware for all I care, I'm keen to get into the Affinity suite. Maybe with time they can cover the gap with Adobe.


As it should be, it's running a desktop OS. I don't think nor should the iPad be a replacement. Some people are able to get away with the restrictions of iOS and make it their only computer. The downside of desktop class applications on a tablet device, the UI and UX aren't fully catered to touch, relying on keyboard shortcuts for efficiency.

Some other points he made (I'm looking at this from an art perspective).

• He found himself using the Surface as a sit down computer doing everyday tasks more, and taking it less on location to actually draw with.
• The Surface Pen is still not as good as the Wacom and Pencil (and this was the gen 1 Pencil he was using, Gen 2 is down to 9ms under iOS 13 seems you bring up the Surface Pen specs so much).
• The stylus held the Surface back, couldn't get the quality he wanted in his art unless he connected a tablet (to a tablet haha).
• The iPad was very comparable to Wacom devices.

• The pressure sensitivity of the Surface Pen is effectively the same as the new Apple Pencil.
• People are used to more than workflow: there are specific features of Photoshop that people need that are not present on mobile versions. There's other software out there like Affinity Photo, etc. but it still doesn't match the power of Photoshop. My wife has been a Photographer for 30 years and has the iPad Pro with Gen 2 pencil and Affinity Photo... there are several gaps.
• Desktop class applications aren't great for touch, agreed. That's why the Surface keyboard with large, multi-touch trackpad takes care of it...
• It's true that the performance of the pen is also reliant on software. There has been wide variability on my iPad Pros when it comes to things like latency and overall reliability of drawing. I used pretty much all the drawing applications and have had both Gen 1 and Gen 2 and different Pros, including the latest one. Some applications were terrible and in many ways unusable. The support for the Apple Pencil has been lackluster with Apple's own Apps like iWork Apps not even being able to be used with it for some time until more recently.

Interestingly, the Apple Pencil gets very poor reviews (e.g., on Apple's site). ~40% 1 star reviews. Highlights of poor reviews: scratching the glass; latency/choppy line draws; falls off the magnet easy; too fragile; pairing/connectivity issues.
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You are still stuck on the ‘spec wars’ like it’s 1999 and not realizing that it’s the actual experience of using the device that matters. AEVan clearly has a deep understanding of using both systems and you do not. My experience as an artist using both devices mirrors exactly their comments. Your attached video means nothing because a basic capacitive stylus, or my finger for that matter, are fully capable of drawing gigantic crayon lines like that. It’s when you actually try to use the device for fine detail that the experience of using the Surface pen falls apart. Specs or not.

How am I stuck in spec wars. Specifically show am I am stuck in spec wars.

How do I not clearly have a deep understanding of using both systems (I actually have used both devices and different generations for years) and started this thread.

How, specifically, does the Surface Pen fall apart when using it.

 

[zhenya]

How am I stuck in spec wars. Specifically show am I am stuck in spec wars.

How do I not clearly have a deep understanding of using both systems (I actually have used both devices and different generations for years) and started this thread.

How, specifically, does the Surface Pen fall apart when using it.

You keep repeating specs of the Surface Pen vs. the Pencil over and over again as if that means something. It doesn’t. What matters is how they feel when you use them. The Surface Pen simply is not accurate enough for natural drawing with fine detail. There is a persistent offset between where the nib sits on the glass and where your line is. It’s small, and they’ve improved it with time, but it’s still there, and worse, it varies with the angle you hold the pen at, which orientation you hold the Surface in, etc. The Pencil is absolutely like drawing with a real pencil in this regard. It puts the mark where I put the tip every single time. I do primarily sketching in pencil and ink, and the Apple Pencil is capable of convincingly re-creating this experience in the digital realm. The Pen isn’t.

 

[aevan]

WRONG.

• 2017: NEW VERSION of the Pen. 4096 levels of pressure with 1024 levels of TILT sensitivity, which was not available on previous generations. It has 21 milliseconds of latency.

Yes, I have been testing the 2017 pen and it feels worse then the Pencil for drawing. That reviewer you shown is clearly entitled to their opinion, but I disagree and so do many artists. Reviewers that I trust, like Brad Colebow agree with me. Here is Brad's review of the Surface Pro 6 and the latest Surface Pen (I set the time, it's at 4:12):

If you don't want to watch the video (but you should, he is a great reviewer of drawing hardware), here is what he said (I shortened some sentences a bit, but it's a direct quote)

"I still like this pen, but I gotta say I don't love this pen anymore. I've gotten spoiled by the Apple Pencil and and some of the Wacom alternatives....

....Unfortunately, numbers don't tell the story how good a stylus is or isn't. For example, 4000 levels of pressure is good but you don't really need them.... the one thing I don't understand here is the latency. 21ms sounds great, but that great latency doesn't really show up on your drawing. I'm not sure why, across all the painting apps I tried, there's still some lag."

And the most important thing:

"....The big thing with the Surface pen is the jitter.... we haven't seen any improvements in that area either. As you can see from my test here, it's not bad - but if you're coming from the world of Apple Pencil or you're used to using a Wacom tablet, you're gonna see it and you're gonna feel it"


I can say that my experience matches his completely. Especially the jitter thing. Apple Pencil is just better and you can feel it. And that's even before the latency update (when Brad was reviewing the Surface Pro 6, Apple Pencil used to be 21ms, now with iPadOS it's even better at insane 11ms).


So, yeah, Apple Pencil feels better for art. Is is better for art. That may change one day, but today, it is what it is.
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Post evidence that supports your claims that the Surface Pen is not accurate enough for drawing.

Check the video in my post above.

I mean, dude, why are you insisting on this so much? Surface Pro is still a good device. A great device. It's better at some things than the iPad and worse at others. It's worse at drawing - but still good. If you like it, get it and enjoy it. That's all there is to it.

 

[polbit]

I have both, Surface Pro 6 and 12.9 iPad Pro, use them both and can't imagine not having one or the other. I just want to comment on one aspect, the keyboard cover. The Surface one is simply in a league of its own. The keyboard is better than it has any right to be, materials are nicer, and the glass trackpad is fantastic. I honestly don't understand why Apple can't come up with something better than what they are selling. Maybe with next gen iPad Pros...

 

[0989382]

I will smash your argument right now. Ready? The SPX has the iPad Pro beat in relation to a set of things, and one of those is a kickstand.

Still waiting for you to smash it.... * yawn *

 

[booksbooks]

This is what I was talking about above. This isn’t about specs. This is about how the device actually behaves in use. You can’t ‘post evidence’ to support that subjective opinion. But the fact is that many artists and people who really pay attention to this stuff generally agree that the Pencil is superior.

To me, as an artist, the difference is huge. Obvious with the first stroke I make. The fact that the specs on paper don’t reflect this tells me that a) Microsoft is either being generous with their specs, or Apple is underselling theirs, and b) that the specs that make the real difference are not published by either company. (For example the amount of offset between the tip and the line produced - this is immediately apparent with the Pen in actual use - but there is no published spec that defines it.)

If you can’t tell the difference in how these two devices perform in actual use, that’s on you, not us.

Nothing to do with specs. Post data/evidence to support your claim: “But the fact is that many artists and people who really pay attention to this stuff generally agree that the Pencil is superior.”

 

[akash.nu]

Not sure if I’m missing something here, but doesn’t the burden of proof lie on the absurd claimant rather than the defendant?!

 

[aevan]

I will smash your argument right now. Ready? The SPX has the iPad Pro beat in relation to a set of things, and one of those is a kickstand.

I mean, if you want a kickstand. I don't want a kickstand on my tablet. How is that not a personal, subjective opinion? It's totally valid if you want one, sure. But it's a matter of preference. I prefer a thinner device that I can attach a cover to - I love how I can take off my Smart Folio whenever I want, and use it to elevate my iPad when I need to.

So, the SPX does not have the iPad Pro beat in terms of a kickstand, because having it is actually a negative for some.

As for other things, well, we'll have to see how it fares in the really important things: screen quality, performance, stylus input, battery life, etc. We still don't know, so, um, yeah - at least wait until it's out, ok? Then you can at least pretend you're objective.