iPad Pro iPad design: needs to significantly evolve. Surface Pro X has it beat.

[DNichter]

Unfortunately it’s not that simple as you make it to be... I would gladly move to ipads pro for everything but they are far from being able to replace laptops professionally... File management is still miles away and those old apps (like MS Office apps) are also miles away from the ipad apps. Plus the countless business apps that simply do not exist for IpadOS (and many do not even exist for MacOS to be honest, but at least on mac you can either run windows, which is a bad idea, or run them in a virtual machine, which is not an option for ipad).

Not everyone needs legacy file systems and software. Personally I don’t think the devices should even be compared (topic of the thread), but just because a device can’t do one off tasks or every task, doesn’t mean it can’t be better.

 

[Digitalguy]

Not everyone needs legacy file systems and software. Personally I don’t think the devices should even be compared (topic of your thread), but just because a device can’t do one off tasks or every task, doesn’t mean it can’t be better.

I can be better at some things. Other than maybe some "creators" most professionals (and if you read carefully that's what I was talking about) need a good file system and legacy software, so ipads can be an addition not a replacement of their (mainly windows) desktop OS machines. Their are definitely not suitable (let alone better) to replace computers in business environments and for a lot of professionals. I didn't start this thread of comparison. I am just saying that what you said is way too simplistic

 

[DNichter]

I can be better at some things. Other than maybe some "creators" most professionals (and if you read carefully that's what I was talking about) need a good file system and legacy software, so ipads can be an addition not a replacement of their (mainly windows) desktop OS machines. Their are definitely not suitable (let alone better) to replace computers in business environments and for a lot of professionals. I didn't start this thread of comparison. I am just saying that what you said is way too simplistic

My bad, thought you started the thread. I work in a corporate environment managing 60 people and I’ve full adopted using only an iPad for my business. It’s definitely not for everyone and I am not saying that it will replace all traditional laptops, just that it’s a better overall device for the reasons I mentioned. The surface is just another laptop, just like any other. The iPad has the ability to be much more than that, depending on the user and the task.

 

[Digitalguy]

My bad, thought you started the thread. I work in a corporate environment managing 60 people and I’ve full adopted using only an iPad for my business. It’s definitely not for everyone and I am not saying that it will replace all traditional laptops, just that it’s a better overall device for the reasons I mentioned. The surface is just another laptop, just like any other. The iPad has the ability to be much more than that, depending on the user and the task.

Look, you don't need to convince me that the ipad is an awesome device. I am already convinced. I have 7 ipads, that kind of shows it... I would like it to do more, but there are things it cannot do in a business environment (as you mention too). I have several businesses. One is a dance school and in that the ipad has replaced pen and paper, mp3 players and even smartphones. But my main business is in the financial and banking sector and there there is no way I can use the ipad (my clients work with windows software and I ipad cannot help with that). And most businesses use windows software.... I also teach at University and give training in various countries and again for that I need a laptop. Ipads are not good enough with presentations even if they are close.... I hope the ipad will improve to a point (with ipados 14/15 etc.), where, other than running windows software, which it will never do, it can use external monitors as a desktop device (and therefore use mouse properly), the file apps is improved to a level where it's equivalent to as desktop file manager / finder including for dropbox and other cloud services without the need to use the apps themselves (so far it's way too buggy). There is still a lot of improvement that can and hopefully will be made to make the ipad more useful in a business environment. I have said elsewhere that Microsoft has no competitor for the ipad pro 11, the surface pro x will be a more direct competitor to the 12.9 but we know nothing about it, this thread is way too premature... It may be as powerful as the A12X but we don't know, and last as long. But as much as Apple needs to improve its file app, Microsoft has a lot of work to improve the file explorer for touch... Nobody should expect most Windows third party apps to become touch friendly nor anyone should expect most third party ios apps to become mouse friendly or external monitor friendly, at least not in the short to medium term.

 

[DNichter]

Look, you don't need to convince me that the ipad is an awesome device. I am already convinced. I have 7 ipads, that kind of shows it... I would like it to do more, but there are things it cannot do in a business environment (as you mention too). I have several businesses. One is a dance school and in that the ipad has replaced pen and paper, mp3 players and even smartphones. But my main business is in the financial and banking sector and there there is no way I can use the ipad (my clients work with windows software and I ipad cannot help with that). And most businesses use windows software.... I also teach at University and give training in various countries and again for that I need a laptop. Ipads are not good enough with presentations even if they are close.... I hope the ipad will improve to a point (with ipados 14/15 etc.), where, other than running windows software, which it will never do, it can use external monitors as a desktop device (and therefore use mouse properly), the file apps is improved to a level where it's equivalent to as desktop file manager / finder including for dropbox and other cloud services without the need to use the apps themselves (so far it's way too buggy). There is still a lot of improvement that can and hopefully will be made to make the ipad more useful in a business environment. I have said elsewhere that Microsoft has no competitor for the ipad pro 11, the surface pro x will be a more direct competitor to the 12.9 but we know nothing about it, this thread is way too premature... It may be as powerful as the A12X but we don't know, and last as long. But as much as Apple needs to improve its file app, Microsoft has a lot of work to improve the file explorer for touch... Nobody should expect most Windows third party apps to become touch friendly nor anyone should expect most third party ios apps to become mouse friendly or external monitor friendly, at least not in the short to medium term.

That’s fair and your points are valid. For me, the iPad Pro is perfect for what it was made to be. With the Surface, it’s still trying to straddle that line between a laptop and a tablet, and I don’t find it to be particularly better than any other Windows laptop.

 

[Digitalguy]

That’s fair and your points are valid. For me, the iPad Pro is perfect for what it was made to be. With the Surface, it’s still trying to straddle that line between a laptop and a tablet, and I don’t find it to be particularly better than any other Windows laptop.

I tend to agree with you. I bought into the surface concept (surface 2, now sold, surface pro 3 and 3, still have them, they don't get much use) early but haven't bought the latest (and improved versions) because I don't believe in the concept anymore. The main issue is the combo of kickstand and keyboard cover, which while great on paper is not good in practice. Also, Microsoft has not pushed LTE enough, as Apple has done with ipads.
Having said that I have to acknowledge some achievements that MS has made. Like making a full i5 fanless and making it work at full potential. In terms of passive cooling MS has done miracles with the much less mobile intel chips. And now their are pushing Windows on Arm, which is another thing that will move the industry forward, despite all the criticism by all the traditional intel fans. Maybe at some point they'll make a product I'll want to buy. For now it's ipads + laptops + desktop for me.

 

[DNichter]

I tend to agree with you. I bought into the surface concept (surface 2, now sold, surface pro 3 and 3, still have them, they don't get much use) early but haven't bought the latest (and improved versions) because I don't believe in the concept anymore. The main issue is the combo of kickstand and keyboard cover, which while great on paper is not good in practice. Also, Microsoft has not pushed LTE enough, as Apple has done with ipads.
Having said that I have to acknowledge some achievements that MS has made. Like making a full i5 fanless and making it work at full potential. In terms of passive cooling MS has done miracles with the much less mobile intel chips. And now their are pushing Windows on Arm, which is another thing that will move the industry forward, despite all the criticism by all the traditional intel fans. Maybe at some point they'll make a product I'll want to buy. For now it's ipads + laptops + desktop for me.

My company gives out Surface's and there are nothing but problems with them. I used it for a business trip once and it was fine, but pretty much the same as any Windows laptop. The fanless i5 is definitely impressive, but I just don't buy any sort of hype with this device.

 

[philosophree]

I know that this is tagged as iPP, but I live with my mini 5 as my sole personal computing device. Its design really hasn't evolved, but it does practically everything I want it to even with it's chin and fivehead. Now, I would love a mini iPP design - without a kickstand. Thinness is definitely key with relation to portability/minimizing volume of space needed, plus I would add a case for protection anyway...

 

[Smici]

New hands-on video

 

[mr_jomo]

This is certainly going to be an interesting device. Disregarding any opinions on kick-stand this looks like the first time Microsoft is closing in on design-parity with the iPads.

I'm not totally sold on Windows on ARM yet. Reviews around November 04-05 will tell us what we need to know in terms of performance, limitations and battery life.

Price is - at least over here - comparable when you bundle the tablet, keyboard and pen for the Pro X and an iPP 2018.

So far, I'm intrigued and interested in a (semi)full Windows unit comparable in price and design to the 2018 iPP 12.9.

Reviews will be very interesting reading in a couple of weeks!

 

[rui no onna]

I usually have the iPad propped on my stomach or lap so the kickstand would just dig into flesh. Rarely have the iPad on a desk or flat, stable surface. I wouldn't want a non-removable kickstand that that I wouldn't use adding to thickness and weight to the device. If they're gonna make the device heavier, I'd rather the extra weight go to the battery.

I don't care if Apple releases an iPad with built-in kickstand as long as they also continue making versions without kickstand.

 

[Skika]

Surface is both a poor tablet and a poor laptop roled into one device. Ipad is just an excellent tablet.

 

[aevan]

I found this post today by accident (it was on the front page of the forum), a user who has generally nice things to say about the Surface Pro 7, but shares the industry-prevalent opinion that the Surface Pen is just not as good as the Apple Pencil. They mention very apparent lag. Personally, for me, the jankiness of the lines was a bigger issue, but I also noticed lag compared to the Pencil - even though Microsoft claims it's only 21ms.

The poster also mentions how the Surface is noticeably heavier than the iPad and that the kickstand adds to the thickness. The poster is ok with that, but still, it is a fact if you care about weight, especially considering tablets are often held with raised arms. Not an issue if you use the Surface as a laptop (which it mostly is), but not so good for a tablet.

Again, this all comes down to needs and personal preference, but it just shows that there is no clear advantage to Surface design compared to the iPad Pro, as claimed by the OP of this thread. It depends on how you use your device and what your requirements are.

So, enjoy your devices, people. For me, nothing wrong with iPad Pro's design, I love it. I also like the new Surface Pros, but not as much.

 

[muzzy996]

SMH why reign in the subject back to kickstand and then engage another off topic discussion about whether or not the surface is a poor tablet/laptop?

 

[rowspaxe]

Surface is both a poor tablet and a poor laptop roled into one device. Ipad is just an excellent tablet.

,,,and a horrible laptop, rolled into to origami coverlet that is a laughable keyboard--with no trackpad

 

[KarmaRocket]

I don't think a kickstand for the iPad Pro would be a bad thing if it didn't add too much weight or bulk. I think Apple could come out with something a bit more elegant. If Apple came out with a cover like the Samsung Tab 6 that might be a better option. Just something more durable and polished. You purchase it if you want something like that etc.

I don't think the kickstand on the surface devices is bad. It's actually nice to have a device that's durable enough that I don't need to purchase a cover. I would rather have that on an every day portable device if it didn't add significant weight. Honestly, if you add a cover and keyboard to an iPad Pro, the weight might be similar to a Surface Pro with keyboard.

People here seem to be arguing over personal opinion. We all have our personal preferences. Doesn't mean one is better than the other. If the other person persists on being right, just ignore them. Most of the posts here have turned into a stream of arguments that just derails the thread into gibberish. Relax people

 

[Aydy]

,,,and a horrible laptop, rolled into to origami coverlet that is a laughable keyboard--with no trackpad

This is just ridiculous and completely untrue. MS have excelled with the X and there’s no denying.

It’s not for me. I’m an iPad guy & probably will be for life but I do enjoy demoing other platforms from time to time and can assure you the Sp X is a serious piece of kit which most definitely deserves the praise and it’s place on the contenders list.

Out of curiosity, Have you demoed the X for any length of time to come to the conclusion that it’s “horrible”? Like I say, it’s not for me due to my iOS setup but having used a surface on occasion (my brothers) and spent time at length with him demoing the proX I can confidently accept that it is a serious bit of kit that excels in functionality and getting the job done. I get that’s it’s all subjective. Each to his own but we can all appreciate when contender devices bring it and MS have been no slouch, previously but it’s safe to say with Spx they have knocked it out of the park.

It’s okay to appreciate both and alternatives

 

[polbit]

This is just ridiculous and completely untrue. MS have excelled with the X and there’s no denying.

It’s not for me. I’m an iPad guy & probably will be for life but I do enjoy demoing other platforms from time to time and can assure you the Sp X is a serious piece of kit which most definitely deserves the praise and it’s place on the contenders list.

Out of curiosity, Have you demoed the X for any length of time to come to the conclusion that it’s “horrible”? Like I say, it’s not for me due to my iOS setup but having used a surface on occasion (my brothers) and spent time at length with him demoing the proX I can confidently accept that it is a serious bit of kit that excels in functionality and getting the job done. I get that’s it’s all subjective. Each to his own but we can all appreciate when contender devices bring it and MS have been no slouch, previously but it’s safe to say with Spx they have knocked it out of the park.

It’s okay to appreciate both and alternatives

I believe the comment was about the iPad, not the Surface Pro X, since SP does have a trackpad, and the Apple Cover does not...

 

[rowspaxe]

This is just ridiculous and completely untrue. MS have excelled with the X and there’s no denying.

My remark was (i thought) obviously about the ipad and smart cover. I am a surface fan, but the pen tech comes up a little short for art--esp inking--and it will never be fixed because of the number of devices
MS is currently employing it on.

Surface X holds promise, but now it seems Surface Go and Surface Studio--maybe SurfaceBook--are being
suspended or cancelled. I think Duo and Neo will flop. Windows X is the new Windows 8. So we might be down to the Laptop, Surface Pro and Surface X in 3 years.

I own the Surface Laptop 2, and really like it.
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Another strawman you erect is falsely stating implicitly that the multitude of covers for the iPad support a wide number of angles in both portrait and landscape.

The number of angles is a little overblown. What's true is that smartcover form factor is garbage

 

[booksbooks]

Review of Surface Pro 7 vs. the iPad Pro. The following two markers will apply to the SP X as well.

Kickstand being better over things like the smart keyboard cover on the iPad Pro due to the kickstand being built-in and having multiple angles.

On the Surface Pen and Apple Pencil being "really close" and that you can't really notice any lag on the Surface Pen. And there is no discernible line wobble on his drawing on the Surface either. This marker also includes him picking the Surface keyboard over the iPad smart cover as well.

 

[Aydy]

My remark was (i thought) obviously about the ipad and smart cover. I am a surface fan, but the pen tech comes up a little short for art--esp inking--and it will never be fixed because of the number of devices
MS is currently employing it on.

Surface X holds promise, but now it seems Surface Go and Surface Studio--maybe SurfaceBook--are being
suspended or cancelled. I think Duo and Neo will flop. Windows X is the new Windows 8. So we might be down to the Laptop, Surface Pro and Surface X in 3 years.

I own the Surface Laptop 2, and really like it.
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The number of angles is a little overblown. What's true is that smartcover form factor is garbage

Apologies for the misunderstanding. My bad 🤗

 

[aevan]

Review of Surface Pro 7 vs. the iPad Pro.

I can see the reviewer considers both devices very close in several areas and the conclusion is that "which one is better" comes down to personal opinion and preference. What I've been claiming all along. In other words: no, iPad design doesn't need to "evolve" as an objective fact. To quote Lebowski for the second time on this forum: that's just, like, your opinion, man.


Btw, I know this is all about the kickstand, but since you mentioned the Pen in that review, no, it hasn't been fixed. The reviewer you quoted is obviously not an artist. Here is the part about the Pen from someone who knows a good stylus from bad (I timestamped it, 5:25):

"What I don't like is the pen itself, it's just not that good". You can clearly see the wobble. If you don't feel like watching the video, here's a pic:

Also, the initial pressure is bad. Clearly, Microsoft needs to improve the pen if it wants this to be used by professional artists. Which I hope they do. Maybe it's better on the Surface Pro X - but I doubt it.

 

[Dave245]

At the end of the day you have opened a thread on the iPad section of the forum, most people are going to be biased in favour of the iPad. I include myself in this, I owned the Surface Pro 6, while it was an ok machine i didn't love it like i do with the iPad. I wasn't a fan of the Surface Pen (i much prefer Apple Pencil).

However there are things about the Surface Pro that i did like, the kickstand was awesome and the full keyboard is better than Apple's smart keyboard. But for me Windows was the big issue, i'm just not a fan.

 

[booksbooks]

The iPad is generally a stillborn product out of the box given its blank slate design.

 

[JayMysterio]

My remark was (i thought) obviously about the ipad and smart cover. I am a surface fan, but the pen tech comes up a little short for art--esp inking--and it will never be fixed because of the number of devices
MS is currently employing it on.

This.

The iPad is generally a stillborn product out of the box given its blank slate design.

Perhaps that blank slate design is all that is necessary.

By using such a basic design it means any variety of individuals can find a way to adapt the product for their own specific needs. Which would explain the ridiculous amount of third party support for iPad for niche users to the mass market.

There's a reason why the KISS principle was so widely accepted, and is still applicable 50+ years later.