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Apple_Robert

Contributor
Sep 21, 2012
35,645
52,430
In a van down by the river




 

casperes1996

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2014
7,597
5,769
Horsens, Denmark
I mean, there's also the fact that light doesn't move in a straight line, really. It sort of floods out, right. So even if the LED is right under the LCD panel and the LED right next to it is turned off, it might still push some light over I guess
 

A_Flying_Panda

macrumors regular
Oct 27, 2017
187
94




I’m not discussing IF there is blooming, I’m talking about why the blooming is so bad.

if you look at this picture from the other post around the dot, and compare it to the mini-LED size from ifixit‘s teardown video, it’s very clear that some dimming zones that are supposed to be completely black are still being lit up.
If the dimming zones are so big that the entire blooming around the dot is only 4 dimming zones, sure the blooming is normal and nature because they have to lit up the dot in the middle. But the fact is this is WAYYYYY bigger than 4 dimming zones. Some zones away from the dot are still bing lit up despite there’s no ’picture’ on it.
is it a software problem or what?


8F16535A-A1AD-40F2-BD96-3D329D4D2908.jpeg
 

Apple_Robert

Contributor
Sep 21, 2012
35,645
52,430
In a van down by the river
I’m not discussing IF there is blooming, I’m talking about why the blooming is so bad.

if you look at this picture from the other post around the dot, and compare it to the mini-LED size from ifixit‘s teardown video, it’s very clear that some dimming zones that are supposed to be completely black are still being lit up.
If the dimming zones are so big that the entire blooming around the dot is only 4 dimming zones, sure the blooming is normal and nature because they have to lit up the dot in the middle. But the fact is this is WAYYYYY bigger than 4 dimming zones. Some zones away from the dot are still bing lit up despite there’s no ’picture’ on it.
is it a software problem or what?


View attachment 1787671
I realize that. The point of me posting the links was because the threads posted discuss your question in some of the posts within. I was trying to make it easier for you to peruse and find answers.
 

A_Flying_Panda

macrumors regular
Oct 27, 2017
187
94
I mean, there's also the fact that light doesn't move in a straight line, really. It sort of floods out, right. So even if the LED is right under the LCD panel and the LED right next to it is turned off, it might still push some light over I guess
I see what you are saying, it does make sense but i dont think it’s no.1 reason…..


btw, physics tells light does travel in a straight line. Physics.
 
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LFC2020

macrumors P6
Apr 4, 2020
16,874
38,037
Another blooming thread ?‍♂️ Please don’t get the bloomers started again ?‍♂️
 

casperes1996

macrumors 604
Jan 26, 2014
7,597
5,769
Horsens, Denmark
btw, physics tells light does travel in a straight line. Physics.
OK, yeah bad phrasing on my part. - It travels in many straight lines is what I'm getting to, in more than one straight angle unless it's like a laser. If you just turn on an LED the light goes in all perceivable paths out, right? Straight lines, but several of them
 

profcutter

macrumors 68000
Mar 28, 2019
1,550
1,296
Because each dimming zone is responsible for lighting 2155 pixels. Roughly a 45x50 square. It’s not like one zone lights up 4 pixels. That box you see is one zone.
 

CrownSeven

macrumors member
Aug 14, 2008
86
56
I am not a fan boy. In fact I’d say I’m a MS fan boy. Just got a 12.9. Love it. All you folks complaining about blooming are smoking something heavenly. The screen is amazing with HDR content. And still excellent without it. Blooming? Jesus its the nature of the technology. My 55” LG OLED does the same god damn thing. Oh and I don’t really see any. Unless I want to pull out a microscope.
 

TheRoadRunner

Suspended
Oct 7, 2020
83
163
United Kingdom
Owning a 12.9” M1 pro myself, I do think the issue has been blown out of proportion. The only time I’ve seen blooming is when you’re in a dark environment and the screen is bright, so a large difference in brightness, and 99% of the time I‘m not using it in such circumstances. HDR contents looks so amazing on the pro it makes the 1% worth it in my opinion.
 

the5rivers

macrumors newbie
May 20, 2021
23
13
I am on day 2 of using my 12.9 iPad and there’s definitely blooming but only under specific conditions and not during general everyday use. I see it in a pitch black room on zero or 100 brightness in the notes app and pretty much anywhere there’s a black background with some UI elements. if you’re sensitive to it you’ll notice it but again only in very specific situations or apps.

I don’t see it at all during the day. Videos look amazing especially hdr. Screen is fantastic otherwise. I went from a 2018 iPad Pro 11 to this and the size and screen are absolutely worth it.
 

Artsketch

macrumors 6502
Oct 22, 2019
330
268
There is blooming on all Mini LED displays but I use my iPad in a well-lit room instead of watching movies with maximum brightness in total darkness and avoid dark mode. So there isn’t really any noticeable blooming.
 

Mcckoe

macrumors regular
Jan 15, 2013
170
352
To answer your question i think we need to backup a bit and understand: how the tech works, why blooming occurs because of the tech, and how software is being used to eliminate the majority of it.

How the tech works: It is actually quite complex, and a radical change from other LCD techs in the past. If you watch the iFixit breakdown, you can see the backlight on its own now looks like a monochromic low resolution version of the image you see on the screen. This occurs because the LEDs alone are given enough resolution to be seen(~2500 zones worth to be precise). You might think that this level of control has always been available; it has not, and is a major accomplishment, even this late in the LCD screen’s lifespan.

Why Blooming Occurs because of the tech: Blooming is a cause of “light bleed” or observable light being somewhere it should not be. In an OLED screen: light is created at source for every sub-pixel. In an LCD screen: light is created by a backlight and pushed through color changing sub-pixels. The main problem with OLED is amount of filter that is required to create the image(if your unfamiliar with the current tech, White light is used with a filter for each sub-pixel: so ~70% of produced light is filtered to produce the required level of brightness for every color; this is the limiting factor in brightness of most OLED screens). With LCD because your light and image are created in parallel, the area in between allows for bleeding or blooming to occur. With ~2500 zones the new XDR screen can reach impossible blacks, but this also means any light created on these blacks are held to the same impossible starting point(LCDs always have starting point in it’s contrast ratio). So, there will always be blooming of some degree in LCD displays. That said, the human eye can only see so much contrast, and in most situations the new XDR screen on the iPad Pro shouldn’t really experience it(extreme low-light, or cameras with better than human abilities).

Software: this is the biggest issue with LCD tech. Because LCD doesn’t just create the image like OLED, it requires a bit more “hands on” work from the programming side of things(Think: Contrast Starting point, color interactions, new max brightness levels, reflections, etc). Essentially every color palette has to be re-ranged, and even certain textures have to be completely recreated. Most of the blooming your seeing is software related. As LCD tech matures the software gets more and more in tune with the display tech’s limitations, as this tech is fairly new; expect the majority of what your seeing to be solved.

What can never be solved: “The Halo Effect“ If you have never used an apple Micro-LED screen before: this effect can be a bit jarring, but the human eye ignores it fairly quickly… essentially, apple uses a 4 LED zone for its backlight. The LEDs are offset a bit in the zone so the LEDs all fit into each other creating a higher concentration of overall LEDs and less dark area in the zone, but this comes at a cost, as the edge of the screen has ~50% as many LEDs as the next available row… this creates the precipitation of a slightly darker edge than rest of the display or a “halo” of darkness around the edge. Honestly, this is a small price to pay for almost perfect contrast in darker areas and elimination of most blooming.
 

briko

macrumors regular
Oct 20, 2015
115
422
Maybe both camps are correct?

What if some iPads legitimately have more bloom than others? It could be a manufacturing variances on the backlight panels, or it could even be a software issue. That would explain why some users are swearing about the blooming issue, while others are insisting that the blooming is minimal because *their iPad* looks okay.

Disclaimer: I don't have a dog in this race. I don't own the new iPad Pro and I'm not ready to upgrade to it yet either. But I am interested in learning about this technology if it ever comes to the MacBook Pro. I've also been lurking these threads for a while, and seeing the 2 sides of this debate talk past each other gets tiresome.

I'm just confused because some of the images I'm seeing look really crisp, while others appear to show extra backlight zones lit up when they should be off.
 

briko

macrumors regular
Oct 20, 2015
115
422
That box you see is one zone.
I think that lit up box is clearly more than one zone. In fact, it looks like it could be 16 zones to me. Even at 45x50 pixels, the zones should be much smaller than that. Look at the corner-curve of the display. The radius of that curve is about 1/2 the width of each dimming zone.

1622973632881.png


-- Edit --

Here is a picture I just threw together:

ipad.jpg


This is what I'm talking about. Forget about camera exposure, I'm just looking at which zones are on and off. You can clearly see where the zones are fully off. I did my best to line the grid up with the image perspective.

Why are all of these zones turned on? It looks like it isn't making use of the full backlight resolution. Again, I'm not claiming that all the iPads have overblown blooming, and I don't think the technology is inherently bad. But something odd is going on with *this* particular iPad in the photo. I haven't seen the backlight doing this in other pictures. Maybe it's just happening to a small percentage of devices?
 
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Royksöpp

macrumors 68020
Nov 4, 2013
2,409
4,024
I am not a fan boy. In fact I’d say I’m a MS fan boy. Just got a 12.9. Love it. All you folks complaining about blooming are smoking something heavenly. The screen is amazing with HDR content. And still excellent without it. Blooming? Jesus its the nature of the technology. My 55” LG OLED does the same god damn thing. Oh and I don’t really see any. Unless I want to pull out a microscope.
These people are not using it solely for watching video. There has been no complaints on that aspect. It's mostly been day to day use on dark mode. It's perfectly acceptable for a device such as a TV to have blooming because it's almost impossible to tell when watching video. The iPad is not a TV, so blooming will be significantly more noticeable on a static image. There is a reason why this technology has only been used on TV's.
 

Lategamer

macrumors member
May 12, 2021
43
53
So for my understanding the Mini-LED technology let the device control the brightness or even full switch off for each and every single local dimming zone. The ipad pros have 10,000 mini LED and 2500 zones. Which means each zone is incredibly small, about the size of a rice (see ifixit tear down video).

the blooming appears when there is both bright and dark on the same dimming zone. if that is the case, the blooming would only be 1 dimming zone wide at its maximum. But this is not what we are seeing. From the pictures online and my own experience, the blooming is a much much thicker ring around the bright object, which means the dimming zones that are displaying completely black pictures are also lit up.

Maybe there is a software problem? Or can anyone explain the technology reason behind it for me?

The problem is contrast.

We have blooming every day on the normal iPad Pro. But as the background "black" is a "dark grey", we don't notice it. When the black is black, it's noticeable. And particularly so, when the ambient light is low.

So, it's all about contrast.
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
I’m not discussing IF there is blooming, I’m talking about why the blooming is so bad.

if you look at this picture from the other post around the dot, and compare it to the mini-LED size from ifixit‘s teardown video, it’s very clear that some dimming zones that are supposed to be completely black are still being lit up.
If the dimming zones are so big that the entire blooming around the dot is only 4 dimming zones, sure the blooming is normal and nature because they have to lit up the dot in the middle. But the fact is this is WAYYYYY bigger than 4 dimming zones. Some zones away from the dot are still bing lit up despite there’s no ’picture’ on it.
is it a software problem or what?


View attachment 1787671
please take that picture with a professional camera not with a smartphone one....a prof camera always are more closed to what the eye really can see
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
Here the difference from picture taken by a smartphone and a professional camera (Hint: the prof camera will be closer to the reality of what the eye can see)
This blooming scenario began with some low tech users that took a picture with an iphone or something similar and posted to the internet and now everybody is making from this a "big" deal/issue when in the reality it isnt
For now mini-Led is the better display tech for the professionals and bigger displays until micro_led will be a real thing when they will figure it out how to shrink the pixels
 

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hammie14

macrumors regular
Mar 18, 2010
247
145
UK
I think that lit up box is clearly more than one zone. In fact, it looks like it could be 16 zones to me. Even at 45x50 pixels, the zones should be much smaller than that. Look at the corner-curve of the display. The radius of that curve is about 1/2 the width of each dimming zone.

View attachment 1787775

-- Edit --

Here is a picture I just threw together:

View attachment 1787779

This is what I'm talking about. Forget about camera exposure, I'm just looking at which zones are on and off. You can clearly see where the zones are fully off. I did my best to line the grid up with the image perspective.

Why are all of these zones turned on? It looks like it isn't making use of the full backlight resolution. Again, I'm not claiming that all the iPads have overblown blooming, and I don't think the technology is inherently bad. But something odd is going on with *this* particular iPad in the photo. I haven't seen the backlight doing this in other pictures. Maybe it's just happening to a small percentage of devices?

This is my image of my iPad Pro, and I posted about it in a different topic, My iPad only started blooming badly like that after i did a DFU iOS restore on my iPad (due to other problems!). My iPad was not as bad before this and i even commented when i first got it that blooming was no where near as bad people where making out, but after the restore its much worse.

Before the DFU restore the zones high-lighted red would not of been on / or would definitely be a lower brightness.

57C4B4FC-ACA2-4674-93A0-11391DFEB0A1.jpeg
 

briko

macrumors regular
Oct 20, 2015
115
422
This is my image of my iPad Pro, and I posted about it in a different topic, My iPad only started blooming badly like that after i did a DFU iOS restore on my iPad (due to other problems!). My iPad was not as bad before this and i even commented when i first got it that blooming was no where near as bad people where making out, but after the restore its much worse.

Before the DFU restore the zones high-lighted red would not of been on / or would definitely be a lower brightness.

View attachment 1787808

Yes, thank you. I was trying to point out with the grid that the outer perimeter of led zones shouldn’t be lit up like this.

I acknowledge that there will always be some blooming, but I think some people here are mischaracterizing what we are trying to point out.

It almost looks like some iPads are rendering the backlight at half resolution. So some iPads are getting much worse blooming than others.

I’m sorry that issue happened to you after that DFU restore, but maybe that means it’s a software issue that will be fixed in the future?
 

hammie14

macrumors regular
Mar 18, 2010
247
145
UK
I’m sorry that issue happened to you after that DFU restore, but maybe that means it’s a software issue that will be fixed in the future?

Yeah I’m hoping so, I have setup a return with apple and they have accepted to take back my magic keyboard too, I can’t get to the UPS point until Wednesday so I’m going so see if i can drop iOS 15 on it after the WWDC keynote (as long as they release a beta).

I’m really in two minds to return it, one hand i really love the device and its awesome in pretty much every other way (upgraded from a 2016 iPP) but i also think £1800 for the iPad, keyboard and pencil is a lot for something i‘m not completely happy with!
 
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briko

macrumors regular
Oct 20, 2015
115
422
Yeah I’m hoping so, I have setup a return with apple and they have accepted to take back my magic keyboard too, I can’t get to the UPS point until Wednesday so I’m going so see if i can drop iOS 15 on it after the WWDC keynote (as long as they release a beta).

I’m really in two minds to return it, one hand i really love the device and its awesome in pretty much every other way (upgraded from a 2016 iPP) but i also think £1800 for the iPad, keyboard and pencil is a lot for something i‘m not completely happy with!

I feel you. I’d probably return it too if I was in the same boat, especially since the issue developed after the restore.

I’m wondering if there was a screen calibration that got wiped by the DFU restore. It would be interesting to see a picture of your iPad next to another freshly unboxed one to see if there is a variation in the backlight.
 
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