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DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
13,051
6,984
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Windows on ARM works very well, and x86 and amd64 emulation works well too. The SQ3 comes out this year, and WoA will have first class android support with no instruction emulation required. All of this is a threat to apple.

You’ll get Android support yet it will NOT be ‘first class’ like you claimed. Win11 specifically will only support Android apps via the Amazon Android App Store. Meaning: not the fully Android app suite, and yet, initially, another store to go through.

When that partnership doesn’t quite pan out, or differences in directions no longer align, you’ll see a change in Android app support.

To me, in my eyes, this was a slow progression for Windows as it was a knee-jerk reaction. This isn’t a threat to Apple and the iPad, it’s about keeping up. Right now Microsoft is focusing on the UI of Windows to make it look more inviting, yet how much work was done for finger accuracy, spacing of core menus, how third party apps’ menus will work for touch or multi-touch?!

Right now you’re only focusing on Microsoft hardware and Windows 11 … you’re forgetting about how the apps will work, not thinking if apps will need a rewrite to work optimally on SQ3 or Surface Pro 7 and upcoming 8.
 
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DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
13,051
6,984
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Opinions like yours never make a lot of sense to me...

Why should people stop trying to expand the boundaries of technology??

When the iPhone launched Steve Jobs was against third party apps. People complained and pushed Apple to expand the envelope. I can't imagine the iPhone growing to where it has today without third party app support.

The industry as a whole is moving to more convergence between tablets and traditional computers. There is no way to slow that march as you see with Windows 11. Apple is holding back, but I'm not convinced they can hold back forever. Well they could, but they'd end up losing their position in the tablet market if they do outside of specific workflows that are stronger on iPadOS (like digital art).

No matter where the industry goes or where Apple goes. People asking for the boundaries to be pushed is a healthy and good reality.

Um … this industry as a whole moving to more convergence between tablets and traditional computers has been going on in the Windows OS world for over 2 decades now!

Traders using tablets from Compaq, HP inside the NYSE - have Peep at Batman (the one with Bane and his crew robbing the NYSE, recall the bankers had tablets?!). Those were first WinCE devices. Microsoft continued with Windows 98SE, then Windows 7 and Windows 8. If memory serves they ALL used stylii and were complete JUNK! Inefficient for data entry, navigation and manipulation of data.

After Apple’s iPad debuted and real dedicated apps where being made - THANK YOU DEVELOPERS - Microsoft seemed VERY stagnant with Windows 8 and slowly began trying again with their own Surface lineup.

Hardware convergence literary was being perfected by HP … they’ve been making Windows OS based 2-in-1 for years, and perfected the double-hinge to what is famously re-iterated and further improved/copied by Asus ZenBook‘s, Dell XPS 2-in-1 13” and Microsoft trying to re-invent with the Fulcrum hinge.

I find it VERY hard for Microsoft to really beat Apple at the tablet game, just as much as I see Apple beating Microsoft on the desktop game (in terms of full functionality and end user engagement; Win in corporate setting beats macOS but for personal nah).

Remember most people use Windows just cause they use it at work.
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,641
4,468
A stylus is what you used on a Palm Pilot or PalmOS device (prior to WebOS), a PocketPC or simple Cassiopeia PDA. Non-capacitive or sorry transitive screens with a layer of film over them (prior to that same transistor film with air between it and the glasss). That’s a stylus - made for an era when screens where too small, OS was never optimize for touch input - where using even your finger or nail was painful and slow.

A pen/pencil in tablets today are pressure sensitive work with capacitive screens and are NOT the major point for navigation. These are VERY much like, equal to, and in some use cases better than a Wacom tablet.

Notice how 1st to 4th generation Android smartphones also didn’t use a stylus (in the traditional sense)? After the 6.2” screens THEN you saw Samsung issue the Note series using a stylus. Even prior to the note series Samsung was very picky when implementing a style on a touch screen smartphone, they preferred the PocketPC phone edition to the poor PalmOS flip-phone they made. Some where released but had very poor sales.
The argument "Apple pencil proves that Apple can change their mind" is indeed a big historical misunderstanding of what Jobs meant by stylus back in 2007....
 
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Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,641
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Yeah laptops and desktops are form factors optimized for productivity *for most people. The touch tablet form factor is fundamentally at a disadvantage. They’re better for portability, but bad for text entry, which is necessary for productivity for most people. Until we invent something better than keyboards, the only way to make tablets good at text entry is by physically turning them into a laptop, but it’s always going to be a compromised one. And touch is more intuitive and fun, but in a touch UI with larger targets, menu items have to be buried deeper, which requires more time to access. And touch requires more movement and holding up one’s arm which adds up to significant extra energy spent throughout a workday. One can add a mouse/trackpad and have a dual UI (no small feat), but again, the only way to make tablets better for productivity is by turning them into compromised laptops, and, if pushed far enough, it will eventually compromise the tablets as well.

So rather than long periods of productivity, tablets are optimized for shorter bursts of interaction, which makes them ideal side devices and consumption devices. Like you said, the software reflects that. Apple has been pushing iOS/iPadOS further, allowing more people to use iPads as their main productivity device. And Apple will always continue to add more functionality, but likely on an increasingly smaller scale, like the yearly updates of macOS. iPadOS seems to be entering maturity.

I’d also like to mention, though the main and obvious benefit to making the iPad more Mac-like seems to be that for those who use both devices, they get to have/carry just one device—but even that isn’t completely true. The Magic Keyboard is in essence a device itself, bulky and heavy, except with the major disadvantage of being a paperweight without an iPad attached. An ultrabook laptop and a light tablet (if one needs the tablet in addition) together would be only slightly bulkier/heavier, but would have the advantages of being non-compromised devices fully functional without each other, but also more functional together.

*There are cases though where the tablet form factor is necessary for productivity—when needing pen input (though this can sometimes be mitigated by old fashioned pen and paper and scanning), when needing the back camera (though this can sometimes be mitigated by using one’s phone camera and integration like Continuity), when needing to work mobile on one’s feet, or when needing a side computer. But Apple probably sees these as adequately covered by the iPad and other solutions, and/or too niche in the grander scheme of things to make Macs dedicated to them.

Note- I’m really only talking about the fundamental attributes of the tablet form factor, not circumstantial advantages of the iPad (eg. cellular data, better screen).


The reason why ipadOS cannot be a replacement for macOS for everyone is that they have a different set of focuses and priorities. Mixing them would compromise one or both. Apple has already been adding a compromised Mac experience to the iPad in the form of various added features, only because thus far it’s been a tolerable compromised experience, and probably more importantly it hasn’t compromised the iPad experience significantly. But there has to be a point where adding Mac functionality would start to significantly compromise the iPad experience (eg. worse battery life, bulkier device, take up too much storage, slow down). It seems that’s the point that Apple is avoiding.
These arguments holds for non pro iPads, not so much for iPad pro....
iPad pro has already the same speed and can have the same storage as Macs, the only argument could be made for battery life and therefore bulkiness, but I am sure many pro users would gladly take the added bulk of a Macbook air sized battery (around 20-25% more battery) to get much more functionality and no slowdown...
And the argument that having exclusive features for iPad pro would be a PR nightmare made by some people (not your here) is an argument I don't buy at all...
Also there is a lot that can be done on iPadOS to give it much more functionality (once a Magic keyboard is added) without compromising the use with touch. And on this we can agree to disagree. I believe that the iPad is not intrinsically less productive than a Mac as you say.
The argument of Apple not wanting people to stop buying Macs and iPads is a much more credible one....
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,641
4,468
I think you're taking your niche, extreme use-case and presuming it applies to most people.

SPOILER: It doesn't.

People who want/need MacOS on an iPad are an utterly tiny, insignificant, yet loud minority.
I don’t know who you are talking to, but I agree and have said it many times, people wanting MacOS on iPad pro are a tiny and loud minority. People wanting a much more productive iPad pro are a much larger number
 

Ludatyk

macrumors 603
May 27, 2012
5,960
5,130
Texas
Yeah laptops and desktops are form factors optimized for productivity *for most people. The touch tablet form factor is fundamentally at a disadvantage. They’re better for portability, but bad for text entry, which is necessary for productivity for most people. Until we invent something better than keyboards, the only way to make tablets good at text entry is by physically turning them into a laptop, but it’s always going to be a compromised one. And touch is more intuitive and fun, but in a touch UI with larger targets, menu items have to be buried deeper, which requires more time to access. And touch requires more movement and holding up one’s arm which adds up to significant extra energy spent throughout a workday. One can add a mouse/trackpad and have a dual UI (no small feat), but again, the only way to make tablets better for productivity is by turning them into compromised laptops, and, if pushed far enough, it will eventually compromise the tablets as well.
I’m confused by this.

I have a physical keyboard for better text entry… and I feel that enhances the tablet form not compromises it. I’m still able to interact with the screen. Same with adding a trackpad, it gives me another selection of input. This idea that it compromises tablets… doesn’t make much sense. However that might be your perspective, I view it as an advantage.

When Apple decided to put an effort into adding keyboard/mouse support…. I was reluctant to go that route, but now I prefer to use keyboard/mouse input with the iPad over touch. Using a physical keyboard unlocks keyboard shortcuts as well… I’ve been using iPadOS 15 and it brings enhancements to multitasking via keyboard shortcuts. And then there’s gestures via the trackpad. Haven’t even brought up Apple Pencil perks.
 

Flabasha

macrumors 6502
Dec 21, 2011
357
441
I think you're taking your niche, extreme use-case and presuming it applies to most people.

SPOILER: It doesn't.

People who want/need MacOS on an iPad are an utterly tiny, insignificant, yet loud minority.
Possibly, but as someone who is loving his first Windows machine, which is a tablet computer, I find the benefits may be too compelling for Apple to miss entirely. Simply put, I love having the ability to write and draw on my actual computer.

Bottom line for me, the regular iPad is a fantastic machine for Apple’s vision of iOS. But an iPad Pro is completely pointless.
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,915
13,259
Possibly, but as someone who is loving his first Windows machine, which is a tablet computer, I find the benefits may be too compelling for Apple to miss entirely. Simply put, I love having the ability to write and draw on my actual computer.

Bottom line for me, the regular iPad is a fantastic machine for Apple’s vision of iOS. But an iPad Pro is completely pointless.

I guess they should just stop making Lexuses and Acuras since Toyotas and Hondas can also get folks from point A to point B just fine.
 
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Flabasha

macrumors 6502
Dec 21, 2011
357
441
I guess they should just stop making Lexuses and Acuras since Toyotas and Hondas can also get folks from point A to point B just fine.
Lexus and Acura provide improved luxury and performance. iPad Pro, at this point, only provides a higher price tag, unless you enjoy watching benchmarking programs.

This is from an owner of two iPad Pros and two iPads.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,824
2,193
Ad blockers for Safari mobile are poop and Safari isn’t a full desktop browser so not all web apps fully work or work at all. Unless it specifically gets full desktop browser and uBlock Origin nothing changes.

Steam Deck is a better iPad since it’s a tablet that can also serve as a desktop replacement with built in controllers/touch pads and unlocked so besides running SteamOS it can also run Windows, Linux and maybe even MacOS straight from the mouths of Steam staff (see YouTube FAQ) with a full desktop browser and play proper AAA games along with retro games with Retroarch which Apple blocks on iPadOS.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1118310/RetroArch/

I don’t really see how the Steam Deck really differs from something like the GPD Wiz 2. Plus, the specs are multiple generations back, so the iPad Pro is likely to outperform it in sheer computational power. It’s also specced for gaming, which the iPad really isn’t (iPad is more of a general purpose device). I don’t really consider that screen size or form factor to be a tablet, either. I know I wouldn’t really want to read websites on my Switch’s display. Coupled with x86’s heat dissipation issues, I think the Steam Deck is all sizzle but no steak. There’s far more value to a Surface Pro than the Steam Deck as a tablet substitute, in my opinion (especially when your justification for claiming it as an iPad substitute is that it can run Windows, well, so can a Surface Pro). If you want to take PC games on the go at a reduced visual quality (it applies customizations automatically, but it’s still applying customizations that reduce the computational workload), sure, go ahead, but it’s clear that a Steam Deck isn’t really an adequate substitute for 90% of what most people use tablet computers or even Windows laptops for.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,824
2,193
Lexus and Acura provide improved luxury and performance. iPad Pro, at this point, only provides a higher price tag, unless you enjoy watching benchmarking programs.

This is from an owner of two iPad Pros and two iPads.
The increase in screen size is nothing to sneeze at, especially for those situations where the iPad already makes sense as a laptop replacement.
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,915
13,259
Lexus and Acura provide improved luxury and performance. iPad Pro, at this point, only provides a higher price tag, unless you enjoy watching benchmarking programs.

This is from an owner of two iPad Pros and two iPads.

The current iPad Pros have a base storage of 128GB and offer capacities up to 2TB. Meanwhile, you can't go higher than 128GB on the basic iPad. Not having to constantly worry about what stuff to delete to make room for other content is a major convenience factor for me.

Also, better speakers, better display, option for bigger display and extra RAM. On my 4GB RAM and lower iPads, I pretty much have to hard reset at least once a week to either prevent or fix glitches particularly in Safari.

Right now, I alternate between the following:

Air 3 (A12, 3GB, 256GB)
Air 4 (A14, 4GB, 256GB)
2017 Pro 10.5 (A10X, 4GB, 512GB)
2017 Pro 12.9 (A10X, 4GB, 512GB)
2021 Pro 12.9 (M1, 16GB, 1TB)

The older/lower end iPads work fine for the most part but the 2021 Pro offers smoother operation. Some webpages like Amazon's browsing history are very laggy on my older iPads but is OK on the 2021 Pro. Still not instantaneous but at least not unbearably slow.

Also, I've often had Excel reload on 4GB RAM when switching between Excel and Safari (need to copy data between the two). Haven't had that issue yet on the 2021 Pro.
 

iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
2,014
2,257
There is very little talk about compute heavy operations with the iPad. Exporting videos or aminations from Keynote take minutes for 10 minutes animations/movies on an A10X. The ipad is fast enough when it start doing exports in seconds instead. Not even the M1 exports in seconds I believe.

I have been playing games (vacation!) like civ vi and xcom2 on an A10X, 4 gb. Reloads are frequent and loading a saved game feels like it takes forever. An M1 iPad with more RAM would likely be very beneficial in these scenarios.

No the iPP 2021 is not an overkill hardware wise and the M2 will not be either. If you are not needing the power of the M1 iPP, buy an Air.
 
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Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,641
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iPad pro offers a ton of hardware advantages over the air 4 and even more over the iPad 8. And they bring tangible benefits (speaks, promotion, more RAM and less reloads, more speed). It is a premium devices and that’s what pro means for Apple, premium….(not professional or productive)
Personally I don’t think this will change because they don’t want it to overlap with Mac too much so that people will keep on buying both.
Having said that, there is nothing wrong in pointing out that from a productivity point of view, iPadOS lacks a lot of features, which again is fine for the base and even mid range iPads… but it’s understandable that people would like at least the pro to have some special features that would make it more productive. What’s wrong IMO is to deny this as it being just a wish of a couple of nerds… I think it‘s a wish of many iPad pro users, especially those that also have accessories like the magic keyboard
 
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Flabasha

macrumors 6502
Dec 21, 2011
357
441
The current iPad Pros have a base storage of 128GB and offer capacities up to 2TB. Meanwhile, you can't go higher than 128GB on the basic iPad. Not having to constantly worry about what stuff to delete to make room for other content is a major convenience factor for me.

Also, better speakers, better display, option for bigger display and extra RAM. On my 4GB RAM and lower iPads, I pretty much have to hard reset at least once a week to either prevent or fix glitches particularly in Safari.

Right now, I alternate between the following:

Air 3 (A12, 3GB, 256GB)
Air 4 (A14, 4GB, 256GB)
2017 Pro 10.5 (A10X, 4GB, 512GB)
2017 Pro 12.9 (A10X, 4GB, 512GB)
2021 Pro 12.9 (M1, 16GB, 1TB)

The older/lower end iPads work fine for the most part but the 2021 Pro offers smoother operation. Some webpages like Amazon's browsing history are very laggy on my older iPads but is OK on the 2021 Pro. Still not instantaneous but at least not unbearably slow.

Also, I've often had Excel reload on 4GB RAM when switching between Excel and Safari (need to copy data between the two). Haven't had that issue yet on the 2021 Pro.
True, the iPad Pro range offers a larger screen, so if you’re looking for that element, I’d advise anyone to buy a used first gen iPad Pro. My first gen 12.9 flies at anything I can throw at it, so I’m selling my 2020. Plus, the original iPad Pro has FINGERPRINT ID, which I’d pay an extra $200 just to have back ?
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,641
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True, the iPad Pro range offers a larger screen, so if you’re looking for that element, I’d advise anyone to buy a used first gen iPad Pro. My first gen 12.9 flies at anything I can throw at it, so I’m selling my 2020. Plus, the original iPad Pro has NO FACE ID, which I’d pay an extra $200 for ?
As a owner of the first and 3rd gen 12.9 I'd say the 3rd gen offers much more.
1. USB C (the biggest deal for me)
2. 100gr lighter and more compact (another big deal)
3. pencil 2
4. promotion
5. compatibility with the magic keyboard
6. BT 5.0 (big deal for me as I can use airpods anywhere in the house, with no issue with range)
7. faster in some demanding web pages (like gmail, youtube etc.) Most people don't realize since they just use the apps. The first gen struggles sometimes
8. Neural engine, allows new features likes live text, spatial audio etc. (only from A12 and above)

I don't like faceid either and have disabled it, but many do...
 
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rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,915
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True, the iPad Pro range offers a larger screen, so if you’re looking for that element, I’d advise anyone to buy a used first gen iPad Pro. My first gen 12.9 flies at anything I can throw at it, so I’m selling my 2020. Plus, the original iPad Pro has FINGERPRINT ID, which I’d pay an extra $200 just to have back ?

I have the 12.9 2nd gen and even that stutters/lags at times so no thanks. I'm happy with my 12.9 5th gen while keeping the 2nd gen for backup.

Besides, 256GB is the max capacity on 12.9 1st gen. At that screen size, I prefer having at least 512GB.
 
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rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,915
13,259
7. faster in some demanding web pages (like gmail, youtube etc.) Most people don't realize since they just use the apps. The first gen struggles sometimes

Agreed. Even the 2nd gen stutters on Gmail, too. I prefer the website to the app and some of these websites have gotten quite demanding.
 
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sparksd

macrumors G3
Jun 7, 2015
9,988
34,224
Seattle WA
Lexus and Acura provide improved luxury and performance. iPad Pro, at this point, only provides a higher price tag, unless you enjoy watching benchmarking programs.

This is from an owner of two iPad Pros and two iPads.

No, it also provides improved performance in a number of apps.
 

Mendota

macrumors 6502a
Jan 9, 2019
617
1,209
Omaha
It’s not. There are no game changer apps like Procreate, Vectornator, LumaFusion.
On Windows you can run Painter, Rebelle, 3D studio Max, etc. Let's not get carried away. I like Procreate, but it can't began to hold the light to Corel Painter or Rebelle. In addition Clip Studio Paint coming to Android changes the landscape in as far as professional digital art for that platform.
 
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Mendota

macrumors 6502a
Jan 9, 2019
617
1,209
Omaha
Already happened for me… I’m 48, a creative professional, and never owned a Windows computer, until now. I got so f@*%ing frustrated with not being able to find files I sent to my iPad Pro, I did the unthinkable…I decided to try a Galaxy Book Pro 360, just as an experiment, figuring I’d probably hate it and return it… I haven’t touched my iPad Pro since. It’s now on Craigslist, soon to be followed by my $4,500 16” MacBook Pro. I’ll still get an M1 Mac mini, just to have a Mac, but that’s it.

It took an insanely bad Apple OS to drive me to Windows, but that’s just how profoundly awful iPadOS is.
I have the Samsung Galaxy Flex from last year. It is a lovely machine. Good luck to you on your journey. There is a world of wonderful graphic software waiting for you.
 

Mendota

macrumors 6502a
Jan 9, 2019
617
1,209
Omaha
I get 5 hours of intense Procreate drawing on my 2 year old battery in my iPad Pro. And I would take these 5 hours over 6 hours on Galaxy devices or any other, really, nothing comes close to Apple Pencil and Procreate.
Actually I have to disagree. Wacom actually does have the best options for drawing hands down. Most artists agree on that. nTrig is in third place at this time, but it is still quite useable. In addition Procreate is a nice mobile app, but it does not stand up to what can be obtained on the desktop. It does not come close to Corel Painter, Full Photoshop, and Rebelle.
 
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Mendota

macrumors 6502a
Jan 9, 2019
617
1,209
Omaha
I speak for myself.

As an iPad user since day 1 in 2010 and having bought the highest end model iPad Pros since they first launched in 2015 with the 2020 12.9 iPad Pro fullest specs

Spent thousands and thousands of dollars on paid applications, third party and first party peripherals over the 10 years I have finally had enough.

- I'm sick and tired of Apple's closed wall gardened environment on iOS running the iPad.

- Most of the time having to compromise or taking extra steps in how to do things compared to many things that come naturally on Macs.

- NO choice but to use what is available on one App Store, having to side load apps that I want and have jailbroken in the past to get more functionality out of my iPad Pros


I am switching to a Windows tablet as soon as Microsoft masters Windows 11 for the tablet touch interface both portrait and in landscape.

I want control over my device, flexibility in the Operating environment with openness to allow me to install and modify what I want and be not restricted by the software only the hardware.


Apple is more interested in protecting it's iOS App Store cash cow on the iPad Pro with no plans on putting MacOS on the iPad Pro models or opening iOS on the iPad with more choice of App stores.


It's time to consider the alternatives because getting Apple to have a more open OS on the iPad Pros at least is beating a dead horse.


Looking forward to what Microsoft can do with Windows 11 and tablet hardware.
At last someone else sees it. Apple will never open the file system because that would allow the installation of apps outside of the app store. By the way I enjoy the iPad pro as an side device with it small apps, but in no way does it replace a desktop or the software that run on desktops.
 
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