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kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,824
2,193
I feel naked without uBlock Origin along with lack of full desktop browser on the iPad not-so-Pro so it's not a good device either for internet surfing, YouTube, etc. And, despite the fake hype, gaming still looks like mobile crapplet vs AAA. Going to hop on Steam and try to preorder the Deck to replace it since it's a much better value, device and isn't locked down.

https://store.steampowered.com/steamdeck
Safari Extensions (which would enable things like uBlock Origin) have already been announced for iOS 15. Additionally, there are already Safari ad blockers that block trackers, and Safari has its own built in tracker protection.

Additionally, the Steam Deck and iPad are hardly competitors unless you only play games and browse the web. Plus, I highly doubt that the Steam Deck isn’t locked down. If you can install games from storefronts other than Steam, that could change things, but Valve has no business interest in letting you sideload or load from non-Steam front ends. Valve annoys me because of the slack PC gamers give them that they’d give to no other company, despite Valve being just as consumer unfriendly as EA.
 
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kave

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2012
567
308
Sweden
Windows on ARM works very well, and x86 and amd64 emulation works well too. The SQ3 comes out this year, and WoA will have first class android support with no instruction emulation required. All of this is a threat to apple.
Try find any proper buisness apps for an Android Tablet that you would like to use. I have an Surface Book 2 13 ” which I have probably used 5 hours the last two years. Yet it is super slow. Even trying to read magazines in .pdf format is an extreme frustration. On our iPad Air 2 it just flies through.
 
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Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,641
4,468
Try find any proper buisness apps for an Android Tablet that you would like to use. I have an Surface Book 2 13 ” which I have probably used 5 hours the last two years. Yet it is super slow. Even trying to read magazines in .pdf format is an extreme frustration. On our iPad Air 2 it just flies through.
Not my experience, my Surface Book 2 15in is very fast, A12 like speed, while the air 2 is extremely laggy.
Now if you are comparing a non touch optimized app like adobe reader with an app like Apple book for pdf, and the non touch friendly app is very frustrating, then sure, but that has nothing to do with speed....
 

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,617
11,292
Safari Extensions (which would enable things like uBlock Origin) have already been announced for iOS 15. Additionally, there are already Safari ad blockers that block trackers, and Safari has its own built in tracker protection.

Additionally, the Steam Deck and iPad are hardly competitors unless you only play games and browse the web. Plus, I highly doubt that the Steam Deck isn’t locked down. If you can install games from storefronts other than Steam, that could change things, but Valve has no business interest in letting you sideload or load from non-Steam front ends.

Ad blockers for Safari mobile are poop and Safari isn’t a full desktop browser so not all web apps fully work or work at all. Unless it specifically gets full desktop browser and uBlock Origin nothing changes.

Steam Deck is a better iPad since it’s a tablet that can also serve as a desktop replacement with built in controllers/touch pads and unlocked so besides running SteamOS it can also run Windows, Linux and maybe even MacOS straight from the mouths of Steam staff (see YouTube FAQ) with a full desktop browser and play proper AAA games along with retro games with Retroarch which Apple blocks on iPadOS.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1118310/RetroArch/

 
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Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,641
4,468
Ad blockers for Safari mobile are poop and Safari isn’t a full desktop browser so not all web apps fully work or work at all. Unless it specifically gets full desktop browser and uBlock Origin nothing changes.

Steam Deck is a better iPad since it’s tablet that can also serve as a desktop replacement with built in controllers/touch pads and unlocked so besides running SteamOS it can also run Windows, Linux and maybe even MacOS straight from the mouths of Steam staff (see FAQ YouTube) with a full desktop browser and play proper AAA games along with retro games with Retroarch which Apple blocks on iPadOS.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1118310/RetroArch/


https://store.steampowered.com/app/1118310/RetroArch/
a desktop replacement that only works when docked and that cannot be used as a laptop with 7in screen and no keyboard and it's probably one of the worst tablet experience ever.
It's great value for what is meant to be, but based on your logic any Windows device is better than an iPad...
 

IowaLynn

macrumors 68020
Feb 22, 2015
2,145
589
Try find any proper buisness apps for an Android Tablet that you would like to use. I have an Surface Book 2 13 ” which I have probably used 5 hours the last two years. Yet it is super slow. Even trying to read magazines in .pdf format is an extreme frustration. On our iPad Air 2 it just flies through.
I stopped using Surface Go (4/64) as it was sluggish and struggled to do anything. On a lark installed W11 and low and behold it runs fine — mire like my Go2 8/128 model. Breathed new life into it. So there is hope.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,141
7,119
In my opinion, it was a mistake to put the M1 in the iPad Pro. We did not get Logic Pro or Final Cut Pro, and iPadOS still makes the M1 pointless. The 2018 iPad Pro was WAY overpowered for the iPad OS. We have no indication that things are going to change, and if they are when they will change. It is entirely pointless for the M1 to be in the iPad Pro even if things change 3 years from now as we will have a newer M* processor that will be far better.
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,915
13,259
In my opinion, it was a mistake to put the M1 in the iPad Pro. We did not get Logic Pro or Final Cut Pro, and iPadOS still makes the M1 pointless. The 2018 iPad Pro was WAY overpowered for the iPad OS. We have no indication that things are going to change, and if they are when they will change. It is entirely pointless for the M1 to be in the iPad Pro even if things change 3 years from now as we will have a newer M* processor that will be far better.

So what, Apple should do the same thing as Intel and provide practically no CPU improvement for the 3rd year in a row?

That's messed considering at that point, even their $600-700 iPhones (and upcoming $400 SE3) will be faster than a $2.4K iPad Pro.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
8,141
7,119
So what, Apple should do the same thing as Intel and provide practically no CPU improvement for the 3rd year in a row?

That's messed considering at that point, even their $600-700 iPhones will be faster than a $2.4K iPad Pro.
How about make their operating system support the hardware they are making? You are essentially paying MORE for that better hardware when the OS cripples it. You like paying more for no benefit? This is like buying a i9 computer for JUST notepad.
 

The Game 161

macrumors Nehalem
Dec 15, 2010
30,974
20,168
UK
I don't know what Apple's plans are for the iPad and MacOS, if any. But I can't believe that Apple crammed an M1, 2TB storage and 16GB of RAM in an iPad Pro, just to keep running mildly better versions of the current iPadOS.
Yeah there’s something bigger in place just not yet…I think the working from home has caused some stuff to be pushed back and to me that’s iPadOS
 

sparksd

macrumors G3
Jun 7, 2015
9,988
34,224
Seattle WA
In my opinion, it was a mistake to put the M1 in the iPad Pro. We did not get Logic Pro or Final Cut Pro, and iPadOS still makes the M1 pointless. The 2018 iPad Pro was WAY overpowered for the iPad OS. We have no indication that things are going to change, and if they are when they will change. It is entirely pointless for the M1 to be in the iPad Pro even if things change 3 years from now as we will have a newer M* processor that will be far better.

Logic Pro or Final Cut Pro? I could care less. There are other apps that benefit from improved performance - LumaFusion, Photoshop, Lightroom, to name a few.
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,915
13,259
How about make their operating system support the hardware they are making? You are essentially paying MORE for that better hardware when the OS cripples it. You like paying more for no benefit? This is like buying a i9 computer for JUST notepad.

The thing is just because it's not running the software you want doesn't mean the M1 (and extra RAM in particular) is of no benefit. Some webpages that can get unbearably laggy (e.g. Amazon browsing history) on a 2017 iPP are much faster on the 2021 iPP.

On my favorite epub reader, parsing a Dropbox folder with 30K+ epubs finishes faster on the 2021 iPP than the 2020 iPP.

Besides, it's not like Apple lowers prices for their older models before they release a new one. I'd much rather have M1+8GB RAM for $799 than a practically 3-year old A12Z+6GB RAM for the same price. I'm not really paying more for M1 than I would've for A12Z. I just get better performance for the same price point. The Mini-LED display does have a $100 premium, though.

If the A12X/Z + 4-6GB RAM offers sufficient performance? Then the release of the M1 iPad means lower prices on older models. ?‍♀️
 
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ofarlig

macrumors 6502a
Jun 23, 2015
931
1,148
Sweden
And my 2018 iPad Pro does just fine with those apps. M1 and 16GB of RAM doesn't make or break these apps.

You can notice a difference even when just browsing and switching between apps, reloads are way less common for one and it is snappier. Noticing a difference in every day tasks from my 2020 Pro.
 
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kave

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2012
567
308
Sweden
The thing is just because it's not running the software you want doesn't mean the M1 (and extra RAM in particular) is of no benefit. Some webpages that can get unbearably laggy (e.g. Amazon browsing history) on a 2017 iPP are much faster on the 2021 iPP.

On my favorite epub reader, parsing a Dropbox folder with 30K+ epubs finishes faster on the 2021 iPP than the 2020 iPP.

Besides, it's not like Apple lowers prices for their older models before they release a new one. I'd much rather have M1+8GB RAM for $799 than a practically 3-year old A12Z+6GB RAM for the same price. I'm not really paying more for M1 than I would've for A12Z. I just get better performance for the same price point. The Mini-LED display does have a $100 premium, though.

If the A12X/Z + 4-6GB RAM offers sufficient performance? Then the release of the M1 iPad means lower prices on older models. ?‍♀️
May I ask which epub reader? I am always struggling with transferring to the iPad and that solution would be great.
 

sparksd

macrumors G3
Jun 7, 2015
9,988
34,224
Seattle WA
Lightroom is quite crappy on Ipad OS even on the m1 for retouch. As soon as you do something image is blurred for a little while which drives me crazy.

What kind of images are you seeing that with? I don't see that with Canon RAW or iPhone ProRAW images or JPEGs from any source. (2021 12.9 Pro)
 

rui no onna

Contributor
Oct 25, 2013
14,915
13,259
May I ask which epub reader? I am always struggling with transferring to the iPad and that solution would be great.

Marvin 3/sxs. Unfortunately, it's been abandonware since 2017. I still like it better than the alternatives.
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
6,252
6,727
Nothing is being held back.

The iPad form factor does not have the potential so may pretend that it does. It is perfectly suited to be the type of device that it already is.

There is no massive swath of users that are intereted in using iPad solely as a primary work device, and doing heavy work. People who buy iPads do so specifically to have a consumption device that they can maybe get some work done on. Some that have very light work needs get all their work done.

The laptop and desktop form factors continue to be the devices where work gets done, so the OS they run continues to reflect that.

iPad continues to be used as a Netflix device with light work duty, so the OS continues to reflect that.

It is not a chicken/egg scenario. It does not require Apple to "make it happen" for the flood gates to suddenly open. Apple already knows. They can see it in the usage patterns of the devices. And they have just enough foresight to know that you can never be truly productive with a touch device. It just isn't adequate for that.

For other reasons we can't comprehend or codify, this form factor is just not the major workhorse form factor. It is a toy more than a tool, even though it has some pretty great tools. And it always will be. AND, that is perfectly fine.
Yeah laptops and desktops are form factors optimized for productivity *for most people. The touch tablet form factor is fundamentally at a disadvantage. They’re better for portability, but bad for text entry, which is necessary for productivity for most people. Until we invent something better than keyboards, the only way to make tablets good at text entry is by physically turning them into a laptop, but it’s always going to be a compromised one. And touch is more intuitive and fun, but in a touch UI with larger targets, menu items have to be buried deeper, which requires more time to access. And touch requires more movement and holding up one’s arm which adds up to significant extra energy spent throughout a workday. One can add a mouse/trackpad and have a dual UI (no small feat), but again, the only way to make tablets better for productivity is by turning them into compromised laptops, and, if pushed far enough, it will eventually compromise the tablets as well.

So rather than long periods of productivity, tablets are optimized for shorter bursts of interaction, which makes them ideal side devices and consumption devices. Like you said, the software reflects that. Apple has been pushing iOS/iPadOS further, allowing more people to use iPads as their main productivity device. And Apple will always continue to add more functionality, but likely on an increasingly smaller scale, like the yearly updates of macOS. iPadOS seems to be entering maturity.

I’d also like to mention, though the main and obvious benefit to making the iPad more Mac-like seems to be that for those who use both devices, they get to have/carry just one device—but even that isn’t completely true. The Magic Keyboard is in essence a device itself, bulky and heavy, except with the major disadvantage of being a paperweight without an iPad attached. An ultrabook laptop and a light tablet (if one needs the tablet in addition) together would be only slightly bulkier/heavier, but would have the advantages of being non-compromised devices fully functional without each other, but also more functional together.

*There are cases though where the tablet form factor is necessary for productivity—when needing pen input (though this can sometimes be mitigated by old fashioned pen and paper and scanning), when needing the back camera (though this can sometimes be mitigated by using one’s phone camera and integration like Continuity), when needing to work mobile on one’s feet, or when needing a side computer. But Apple probably sees these as adequately covered by the iPad and other solutions, and/or too niche in the grander scheme of things to make Macs dedicated to them.

Note- I’m really only talking about the fundamental attributes of the tablet form factor, not circumstantial advantages of the iPad (eg. cellular data, better screen).


Apple wants us to buy both a MacBook and an iPad, so-- by design-- they make a worse MacBook and a worse iPad. This has worked well for them so far, but now they've made the iPad hardware too good, and they face real competition for once thanks to Microsoft in the Surface Pro + W11. I think over the next few years Apple will have no choice but concede on iPadOS, and to actually open it up.
Are you saying Apple could have made the original 2010 iPad hardware as good as the 2021 iPad Pro but purposely didn’t? You don’t think it took technological progress to get the iPad where it is now?

Because Apple never changed their minds. Just like they will never make a stylus or a big screen phone.

Oh. Wait.
Not saying Apple can’t change their minds, but your examples may not be the best. Apple still doesn’t make the stylus that they were referring to. And market pressures caused them to go back on making big phones, but so far we don’t see market pressures being at play here. There seems to be a lot of techies making noise online, but that doesn’t equate to loss of revenue.

Picked up an M1 iPad Pro to see the state of iPadOS. Verdict is Apple have intentionally made it worse and worse over time to force you to buy two devices, a Macbook and iPad, since it's more profitable than giving you one integrated device running MacOS. A $1100 iPad Pro can't keep an active SSH session in the background for more than 30 seconds with iPadOS/iOS 13+ that a $10 Raspberry Pi Zero W can do infinitely without issue. Down from 3 minutes with iOS 7+ and 10 minutes with iOS 5+.
I’m not familiar with your example. Do you have other examples of how Apple has been making ipadOS worse and worse? Apple has been adding more and more Mac-like functionality—split screen, files app, mouse support, external monitor support, etc.—so if anything it seems like they’re helping people not have to buy a Mac. If they were making the iPad worse and worse, wouldn’t they just be risking losing iPad sales? Who is forced to buy an iPad?

I know that I’m not buying an iPad until Apple really let iPadOS fly.

Until they do, For me, iPad still remains mostly an iPhone with a bigger canvas.

And it seems that the main reason that they’re holding iPad back, is because they’re migrating macOS to M1 and they don’t want to cannibalise the sales of their new products.

I simply cannot think of another valid reason as to why iPadOS is so constrained.
This has been said by others before, but the iPhone can also be seen as a tiny iPad, both devices very functional and the only required devices for some people.
The reason why ipadOS cannot be a replacement for macOS for everyone is that they have a different set of focuses and priorities. Mixing them would compromise one or both. Apple has already been adding a compromised Mac experience to the iPad in the form of various added features, only because thus far it’s been a tolerable compromised experience, and probably more importantly it hasn’t compromised the iPad experience significantly. But there has to be a point where adding Mac functionality would start to significantly compromise the iPad experience (eg. worse battery life, bulkier device, take up too much storage, slow down). It seems that’s the point that Apple is avoiding.
 

DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
13,051
6,984
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I like the concept of the Surface Pro. I have had three different Intel Surface Pros. The software has actually been more than adequate. But the hardware has always been a bit flakey. For instance, when turned off, it would turn on suddenly. Once it happened in my bag, and when I opened the bag, the battery was dead and it was hot as hell in the bag. An LTE version I had, the LTE modem would disappear randomly and you had to go into the BIOS to turn if off and on again. And after patching overnight, on occasion it wouldn't reboot, it would turn off.

I don't know about the X, but MS needs to fine tune their Intel hardware.

Sounds like terrible Drivers (pathetic considering Microsoft has THE biggest partnership and should have THE best insight) & BIOS … really sad Microsoft is STILL that bad with drivers.

At work same issues with custom well designed Windows 10 1909 build. I’m just waiting for issues of swollen batteries like we’ve been seeing with HP EliteBook 840 G5-G6’.
 

DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
13,051
6,984
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Because Apple never changed their minds. Just like they will never make a stylus or a big screen phone.

Oh. Wait.

A stylus is what you used on a Palm Pilot or PalmOS device (prior to WebOS), a PocketPC or simple Cassiopeia PDA. Non-capacitive or sorry transitive screens with a layer of film over them (prior to that same transistor film with air between it and the glasss). That’s a stylus - made for an era when screens where too small, OS was never optimize for touch input - where using even your finger or nail was painful and slow.

A pen/pencil in tablets today are pressure sensitive work with capacitive screens and are NOT the major point for navigation. These are VERY much like, equal to, and in some use cases better than a Wacom tablet.

Notice how 1st to 4th generation Android smartphones also didn’t use a stylus (in the traditional sense)? After the 6.2” screens THEN you saw Samsung issue the Note series using a stylus. Even prior to the note series Samsung was very picky when implementing a style on a touch screen smartphone, they preferred the PocketPC phone edition to the poor PalmOS flip-phone they made. Some where released but had very poor sales.
 
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