Is the new Mac Pro a failure?

[-hh]

...
Instead of a meaningless poll, here's a genuine idea for you folks so unhappy with the nMP: start one of those internet petitions outlining what the next Mac Pro should be. Get even a 100,000 signatures - that might actually send a message to Apple.

And the value of 100,000 was picked ... because 22,000 wasn't already enough of a message?

After all, this thread (& vote) is hardly the first time that the state of Apple's support for the Mac Pro has come up.

Sorry that this just feels to me like YA moving of the Goal Posts as an attempt to remain in denial...


-hh

 

[AidenShaw]

how many of this 233 users actually own a MP ? I bet less than 50 .... maybe less than 20.

If the majority of the voters are calling the MP6,1 a "failure" - why would you expect them to have purchased one?

 

[Max(IT)]

And the value of 100,000 was picked ... because 22,000 wasn't already enough of a message?

After all, this thread (& vote) is hardly the first time that the state of Apple's support for the Mac Pro has come up.

Sorry that this just feels to me like YA moving of the Goal Posts as an attempt to remain in denial...


-hh

Considering the limited number of Mac Pro sold, even 10,000 would be enough of a message ....

But on a forum like this you couldn't probably find 100 unhappy "real MP" users.
Most of the complainers are just bashers/computer geeks looking for a gaming machine.

There are some real users not happy about the MP 6,1 and they explained their reasons here, but as usual the most vocal are not real users.

 

[thefredelement]

And the value of 100,000 was picked ... because 22,000 wasn't already enough of a message?

After all, this thread (& vote) is hardly the first time that the state of Apple's support for the Mac Pro has come up.

Sorry that this just feels to me like YA moving of the Goal Posts as an attempt to remain in denial...


-hh

But the same people bring up the same points.

 

[Max(IT)]

If the majority of the voters are calling the MP6,1 a "failure" - why would you expect them to have purchased one?

you are here since a while and you know perfectly well that the vast majority of the voters here aren't the target of MP's market, no matter how it is made.

 

[linuxcooldude]

If the majority of the voters are calling the MP6,1 a "failure" - why would you expect them to have purchased one?

I wouldn't expect a soccer mom with an iPhone to buy one either.

 

[mcnallym]

What "he-man-nMP-haters-club-agenda'athon?"
View attachment 604160

Can tell that isn't real. A real one wouldn't be black like the nMP, would be silver like the cMP they love!

 

[MrJandali]

The new Mac Pro is a big success in technical terms since it is a masterpiece of engineering.

Show me a personal computer just approximately as:

- light
- compact
- calm
- economical
- powerful

And all of that at the same time !!!

Please let me know if there is such a PC anywhere out on this planet.

Now combine 4 of those 5 virtues, same question. Anyone ?

Okay, substract another one: Give me just 3 of them, three... I´m curious if you will find such a PC.

And even more, the nMP is also:
- made of highest premium quality (very stable, reliable, durable, easily repairable)
(please open the thing up and dive in, you´ll see what I mean then)
- nicely upgradeable (RAM, SSD easy, CPU a bit tricky but doable, GPU just in theory though)

I mean, this thing has a power supply inside strong enough to drive 12 Cores, 2 GPUs in any way...

If you think about those facts very carefully and compare them you will have to come to the conclusion that this PC is the best PC that was ever built, even up to today. I give a sh** on Apples self adulation but this PC is so freakin´cool it´s a pain to see people grousing about it. The only things to grouse about here are price and the non-existance of a consumer version with less pricey parts in it and the non-availability of graphic cards. Otherwise this would be the very new PC for most people on the planet and push Apple to No. 1 in PC market, too. But Apple is not aware of its value, too, obviously.

Think about it.

 

[Zwhaler]

I own a very nice 5,1. I upgraded it so much that I don't really have anything left to do to it. It has gotten a lot of use over the past four years. Here is my experience with a 6,1

It was the quad core, 32GB RAM, D700s. I was using it to edit a short film.

First disappointment: No internal speakers. Not a big deal, but kind of annoyed me when I was attempting to use them.

Second disappointment: Final Cut Pro X was laggy compared to my computer. Don't ask me why, because it didn't make any sense. I was editing Sony A7S footage so nothing overly strenuous, and it was only 1080p. Moving the playhead and trying to hit play expecting the software to be super snappy was not! I wasn't expecting this from the high clock speed quad core model. Not much RAM was being used so it wasn't that. The D700s didn't seem to make much of a difference in snappiness of the program.

Third disappointment: After finishing the editing session, all of the stuff was saved/organized and a week or so later when I returned to the project to adjust the credits, the project was missing! Luckily I knew how to restore a fresh library from FCP's backups system so I was able to restore it. But having the project disappear like that was completely uncalled for. This could very well be a problem with FCP 10.2.2 and not the hardware, but it doesn't make sense since my 5,1 runs older 10.1 (due to not having Yosemite) and it runs way snappier and less buggy than this.

Overall the machine ran poorer than mine while editing and I was not impressed at all. I really don't know how to explain this but that was my experience. It was like I was getting the performance of an iMac, not a Mac Pro. I was running two displays that were around 19"20" each, which isn't much. My 5,1 runs a 27" and a 19" off of a single R9 280X.

 

[filmak]

I own a very nice 5,1. I upgraded it so much that I don't really have anything left to do to it. It has gotten a lot of use over the past four years. Here is my experience with a 6,1

It was the quad core, 32GB RAM, D700s. I was using it to edit a short film.

First disappointment: No internal speakers. Not a big deal, but kind of annoyed me when I was attempting to use them.

Second disappointment: Final Cut Pro X was laggy compared to my computer. Don't ask me why, because it didn't make any sense. I was editing Sony A7S footage so nothing overly strenuous, and it was only 1080p. Moving the playhead and trying to hit play expecting the software to be super snappy was not! I wasn't expecting this from the high clock speed quad core model. Not much RAM was being used so it wasn't that. The D700s didn't seem to make much of a difference in snappiness of the program.

Third disappointment: After finishing the editing session, all of the stuff was saved/organized and a week or so later when I returned to the project to adjust the credits, the project was missing! Luckily I knew how to restore a fresh library from FCP's backups system so I was able to restore it. But having the project disappear like that was completely uncalled for. This could very well be a problem with FCP 10.2.2 and not the hardware, but it doesn't make sense since my 5,1 runs older 10.1 (due to not having Yosemite) and it runs way snappier and less buggy than this.

Overall the machine ran poorer than mine while editing and I was not impressed at all. I really don't know how to explain this but that was my experience. It was like I was getting the performance of an iMac, not a Mac Pro. I was running two displays that were around 19"20" each, which isn't much. My 5,1 runs a 27" and a 19" off of a single R9 280X.

Is it possible to know about your 5,1 specs please?
Just to have something for comparison.
Thank you.

 

[rawweb]

I own a very nice 5,1. I upgraded it so much that I don't really have anything left to do to it. It has gotten a lot of use over the past four years. Here is my experience with a 6,1

It was the quad core, 32GB RAM, D700s. I was using it to edit a short film.

First disappointment: No internal speakers. Not a big deal, but kind of annoyed me when I was attempting to use them.

Second disappointment: Final Cut Pro X was laggy compared to my computer. Don't ask me why, because it didn't make any sense. I was editing Sony A7S footage so nothing overly strenuous, and it was only 1080p. Moving the playhead and trying to hit play expecting the software to be super snappy was not! I wasn't expecting this from the high clock speed quad core model. Not much RAM was being used so it wasn't that. The D700s didn't seem to make much of a difference in snappiness of the program.

Third disappointment: After finishing the editing session, all of the stuff was saved/organized and a week or so later when I returned to the project to adjust the credits, the project was missing! Luckily I knew how to restore a fresh library from FCP's backups system so I was able to restore it. But having the project disappear like that was completely uncalled for. This could very well be a problem with FCP 10.2.2 and not the hardware, but it doesn't make sense since my 5,1 runs older 10.1 (due to not having Yosemite) and it runs way snappier and less buggy than this.

Overall the machine ran poorer than mine while editing and I was not impressed at all. I really don't know how to explain this but that was my experience. It was like I was getting the performance of an iMac, not a Mac Pro. I was running two displays that were around 19"20" each, which isn't much. My 5,1 runs a 27" and a 19" off of a single R9 280X.

First, the 6,1 has internal speakers. Not really sure why you would want to use them in any mac for pro work though...screenshot attached. Second, I use a 5,1 and 6,1 every day. I edit 4k video on the 6,1 and have never experienced 'laggy' behavior as you're describing. You weren't using a external usb hard drive to do this were you? Your third complaint sounds more like poor user media management/software issues than a complaint against an actual computer.

 

[Max(IT)]

I own a very nice 5,1. I upgraded it so much that I don't really have anything left to do to it. It has gotten a lot of use over the past four years. Here is my experience with a 6,1

It was the quad core, 32GB RAM, D700s. I was using it to edit a short film.

First disappointment: No internal speakers. Not a big deal, but kind of annoyed me when I was attempting to use them.

Second disappointment: Final Cut Pro X was laggy compared to my computer. Don't ask me why, because it didn't make any sense. I was editing Sony A7S footage so nothing overly strenuous, and it was only 1080p. Moving the playhead and trying to hit play expecting the software to be super snappy was not! I wasn't expecting this from the high clock speed quad core model. Not much RAM was being used so it wasn't that. The D700s didn't seem to make much of a difference in snappiness of the program.

Third disappointment: After finishing the editing session, all of the stuff was saved/organized and a week or so later when I returned to the project to adjust the credits, the project was missing! Luckily I knew how to restore a fresh library from FCP's backups system so I was able to restore it. But having the project disappear like that was completely uncalled for. This could very well be a problem with FCP 10.2.2 and not the hardware, but it doesn't make sense since my 5,1 runs older 10.1 (due to not having Yosemite) and it runs way snappier and less buggy than this.

Overall the machine ran poorer than mine while editing and I was not impressed at all. I really don't know how to explain this but that was my experience. It was like I was getting the performance of an iMac, not a Mac Pro. I was running two displays that were around 19"20" each, which isn't much. My 5,1 runs a 27" and a 19" off of a single R9 280X.

We don't know anything about your 5,1 configuration, but we know something about your 6,1 configuration.
You opted for the more powerful D700 and just a quad core ? It seems unbalanced to me ...
I'm not really an expert in the field, but FCP X running slow on a MP 6,1 doesn't seem very credible.
I'm not even commenting on the internal speaker. They are there and they are useless as every internal speaker on every computer.

 

[whodatrr]

OK, I'll bite...

- light

This is of little of no concern for me, and I'd trade it in a heartbeat for extensibility. I don't know about you, but I don't carry my main workstation or desktop around with me much.

- compact

This is of marginal concern for me. yes, it's an accomplishment, but one I don't care much about. Again, I'd trade it in a second, for a bit more extensibility.

- calm

This one I do care about, and Apple did a great job here. Assuming, of course, by calm you mean quiet. I agree... well done, Apple!

- economical

By what measure? My math has it a heck of a lot more expensive than PC counterparts, even in the workstation class. And, as more of a prosumer, it's outrageously priced. Plus, there's the fact that it's more or less a disposable system that I'll have to ditch when its weakest link becomes a problem, vs something on the PC side that will allow me to upgrade that weak link.

- powerful

Again, by what measure? 2+ year old architecture, CPUs, GPUs, and very limited on the GPU side. I/O is also behind, especially considering that external I/O is the only path to upgrade.

Light, compact, and calm - yes, it is all of this. Calm I appreciate, but the other two don't rock my world (YMMV). These are however, great attributes for a mobile system, which explains why we now have two 12" rMBs in our family. But i don't care so much about Light and compact in a desktop or workstation.

I will bet that there are some users for whom weight and compactness are important (eg. creative pros carrying their workstations back & forth between home and office), but I'm not one of them. They are certainly "nice to have" features, but not worth the trade-off, to me. Again, YMMV.

Economical and Powerful, I would contend.

The new Mac Pro is a big success in technical terms since it is a masterpiece of engineering.

Show me a personal computer just approximately as:

- light
- compact
- calm
- economical
- powerful

And all of that at the same time !!!

Please let me know if there is such a PC anywhere out on this planet.

Now combine 4 of those 5 virtues, same question. Anyone ?

Okay, substract another one: Give me just 3 of them, three... I´m curious if you will find such a PC.

And even more, the nMP is also:
- made of highest premium quality (very stable, reliable, durable, easily repairable)
(please open the thing up and dive in, you´ll see what I mean then)
- nicely upgradeable (RAM, SSD easy, CPU a bit tricky but doable, GPU just in theory though)

I mean, this thing has a power supply inside strong enough to drive 12 Cores, 2 GPUs in any way...

If you think about those facts very carefully and compare them you will have to come to the conclusion that this PC is the best PC that was ever built, even up to today. I give a sh** on Apples self adulation but this PC is so freakin´cool it´s a pain to see people grousing about it. The only things to grouse about here are price and the non-existance of a consumer version with less pricey parts in it and the non-availability of graphic cards. Otherwise this would be the very new PC for most people on the planet and push Apple to No. 1 in PC market, too. But Apple is not aware of its value, too, obviously.

Think about it.

 

[filmak]

I'm not really an expert in the field, but FCP X running slow on a MP 6,1 doesn't seem very credible.
I'm not even commenting on the internal speaker. They are there and they are useless as every internal speaker on every computer.

Second disappointment: Final Cut Pro X was laggy compared to my computer.

I would agree that 6,1 has no problem with FCPX.
Perhaps something else unrelated to 6,1 was involved, like a slow portable hd, a codec problem, other tasks running at the same time, a software installation problem ( the project's disappearance may be an indication) etc.

As I understand this nMP was not yours, so it was in uncontrolled by you condition (?), your setup (5,1) may be better maintained and optimized.

Zwhaler I really think that something else was the cause of the worst performance, not the 6,1, but in any case I would like to know about your 5,1 setup to be sure.

And about the speaker missing, yes, there is a speaker installed, suitable for the startup chime.

 

[996085]

Considering the limited number of Mac Pro sold, even 10,000 would be enough of a message ....

But on a forum like this you couldn't probably find 100 unhappy "real MP" users.
Most of the complainers are just bashers/computer geeks looking for a gaming machine.

There are some real users not happy about the MP 6,1 and they explained their reasons here, but as usual the most vocal are not real users.

What is a "real MP" user?

 

[996085]

The new Mac Pro is a big success in technical terms since it is a masterpiece of engineering.

Show me a personal computer just approximately as:

- light
- compact
- calm
- economical
- powerful

And all of that at the same time !!!

Please let me know if there is such a PC anywhere out on this planet.

Now combine 4 of those 5 virtues, same question. Anyone ?

Okay, substract another one: Give me just 3 of them, three... I´m curious if you will find such a PC.

And even more, the nMP is also:
- made of highest premium quality (very stable, reliable, durable, easily repairable)
(please open the thing up and dive in, you´ll see what I mean then)
- nicely upgradeable (RAM, SSD easy, CPU a bit tricky but doable, GPU just in theory though)

I mean, this thing has a power supply inside strong enough to drive 12 Cores, 2 GPUs in any way...

If you think about those facts very carefully and compare them you will have to come to the conclusion that this PC is the best PC that was ever built, even up to today. I give a sh** on Apples self adulation but this PC is so freakin´cool it´s a pain to see people grousing about it. The only things to grouse about here are price and the non-existance of a consumer version with less pricey parts in it and the non-availability of graphic cards. Otherwise this would be the very new PC for most people on the planet and push Apple to No. 1 in PC market, too. But Apple is not aware of its value, too, obviously.

Think about it.

Calm? What the hell is calm?

 

[filmak]

Calm? What the hell is calm?

calm is the opposite of hell...

 

[MrJandali]

OK, I'll bite...

- light

This is of little of no concern for me, and I'd trade it in a heartbeat for extensibility. I don't know about you, but I don't carry my main workstation or desktop around with me much.

- compact

This is of marginal concern for me. yes, it's an accomplishment, but one I don't care much about. Again, I'd trade it in a second, for a bit more extensibility.

- calm

This one I do care about, and Apple did a great job here. Assuming, of course, by calm you mean quiet. I agree... well done, Apple!

- economical

By what measure? My math has it a heck of a lot more expensive than PC counterparts, even in the workstation class. And, as more of a prosumer, it's outrageously priced. Plus, there's the fact that it's more or less a disposable system that I'll have to ditch when its weakest link becomes a problem, vs something on the PC side that will allow me to upgrade that weak link.

- powerful

Again, by what measure? 2+ year old architecture, CPUs, GPUs, and very limited on the GPU side. I/O is also behind, especially considering that external I/O is the only path to upgrade.

Light, compact, and calm - yes, it is all of this. Calm I appreciate, but the other two don't rock my world (YMMV). These are however, great attributes for a mobile system, which explains why we now have two 12" rMBs in our family. But i don't care so much about Light and compact in a desktop or workstation.

I will bet that there are some users for whom weight and compactness are important (eg. creative pros carrying their workstations back & forth between home and office), but I'm not one of them. They are certainly "nice to have" features, but not worth the trade-off, to me. Again, YMMV.

Economical and Powerful, I would contend.

Oh sorry. My English is not the best as it seems.

calm = quiet

economical = in terms of power consumption

powerful = as measured by the other virtues
(for a unit that light, compact, durable, quiet etc...)

Well, of course any person cares about something different. But that doesn´t matter. In a review you spotlight different types of features and not everyone cares about any feature. Today many people do care a lot about size, weight etc..

 

[whodatrr]

But Apple has been down this road before...

While some absolutely loved this path, the majority of the market didn't bite.

But yes, there were some die-hards for whom the death of that little cube crushed.

Oh sorry. My English is not the best as it seems.

calm = quiet

economical = in terms of power consumption

powerful = as measured by the other virtues
(for a unit that light, compact, durable, quiet etc...)

Well, of course any person cares about something different. But that doesn´t matter. In a review you spotlight different types of features and not everyone cares about any feature. Today many people do care a lot about size, weight etc..

 

[996085]

Oh sorry. My English is not the best as it seems.

calm = quiet

economical = in terms of power consumption

powerful = as measured by the other virtues
(for a unit that light, compact, durable, quiet etc...)

Well, of course any person cares about something different. But that doesn´t matter. In a review you spotlight different types of features and not everyone cares about any feature. Today many people do care a lot about size, weight etc..

That's because Apple moved all that power consumption to external enclosures. The nMP is a "work of engineering" merely because they took so much out of it.

 

[whodatrr]

True, that.

That's because Apple moved all that power consumption to external enclosures. The nMP is a "work of engineering" merely because they took so much out of it.

 

[ixxx69]

First, the 6,1 has internal speakers. Not really sure why you would want to use them in any mac for pro work though...screenshot attached. Second, I use a 5,1 and 6,1 every day. I edit 4k video on the 6,1 and have never experienced 'laggy' behavior as you're describing. You weren't using a external usb hard drive to do this were you? Your third complaint sounds more like poor user media management/software issues than a complaint against an actual computer.

What's particularly revealing about this is I would bet that the vast majority of people calling the nMP a failure are users like Zwhaler who really don't know any better and join the popular narrative that the nMP is a failure, but when you actually hear the reasons, it's like... oh that has nothing to do with the design of the nMP, you just didn't know what you were doing.

That's not in any way to discredit the folks who have legitimate gripes, etc., but as someone who's seen this kind of stuff for 30 years, more often than not, it's "user error". Macs, PCs, OSX, Windows, it's all the same (well actually, there's nothing worse than wannabe Mac fanboys). Tons of people with little actual knowledge and experience will pontificate as though they're an expert, and then you dig a little deeper and realize they don't know what they're talking about (and that's not directed at Zwhaler, I'm just using his post as a topic point).

 

[AppleDroid]

What is a "real MP" user?

Someone who buys one to support their work/business, gets a tax write-off, and doesn't spend 20hrs a week stalking the MP boards to post the same, tired, comments on every single thread?

 

[whodatrr]

And then there's the flip-side of the argument, where Apple is supposed to be the solution that "just works", which is why we pay a premium for it. the speakers should have just worked, without the poster having to do much of anything about it, and apparently they didn't. The Apple Software should have just run faster on Apple hardware, without the user having to do much about it, and apparently it did not. for the most part, we don't buy macs because we want to fiddle with stuff, we buy them because we want them to just work. And with the nMP hasn't Apple made trade-offs (eg. a lack of extensibility) to take that model to the extreme?

It reminds me of a usability session 25 or so years ago, when we hired a few test users to try to install our Mac Software. There were a dozen or so of us behind one-way glass, as users came into the test room to try to install our software. We had three users lined up, which was supposed to take about two hours. An hour and a half into trying, the first user just up and quit the program, saying she didn't need or want the fee, without having gotten anywhere with our software.

And those of us on the other side of the glass quickly went from muttering "stupid user" to "stupid us". Again, we pay a premium for Macs to just work, especially if the whole stack if Apple hardware and software. If, for example, the internal speaker didn't work, I don;t see that as a user error, but Apple's.

What's particularly revealing about this is I would bet that the vast majority of people calling the nMP a failure are users like Zwhaler who really don't know any better and join the popular narrative that the nMP is a failure, but when you actually hear the reasons, it's like... oh that has nothing to do with the design of the nMP, you just didn't know what you were doing.

That's not in any way to discredit the folks who have legitimate gripes, etc., but as someone who's seen this kind of stuff for 30 years, more often than not, it's "user error". Macs, PCs, OSX, Windows, it's all the same (well actually, there's nothing worse than wannabe Mac fanboys). Tons of people with little actual knowledge and experience will pontificate as though they're an expert, and then you dig a little deeper and realize they don't know what they're talking about (and that's not directed at Zwhaler, I'm just using his post as a topic point).

 

[996085]

What's particularly revealing about this is I would bet that the vast majority of people calling the nMP a failure are users like Zwhaler who really don't know any better and join the popular narrative that the nMP is a failure, but when you actually hear the reasons, it's like... oh that has nothing to do with the design of the nMP, you just didn't know what you were doing.

That's not in any way to discredit the folks who have legitimate gripes, etc., but as someone who's seen this kind of stuff for 30 years, more often than not, it's "user error". Macs, PCs, OSX, Windows, it's all the same (well actually, there's nothing worse than wannabe Mac fanboys). Tons of people with little actual knowledge and experience will pontificate as though they're an expert, and then you dig a little deeper and realize they don't know what they're talking about (and that's not directed at Zwhaler, I'm just using his post as a topic point).

Is it user error that the nMP doesn't have slots? Is it user error the nMP doesn't have internal storage? Is it user error the nMP is limited to a single CPU? Frankly I have seen no one complain about the performance of the nMP as it relates to what it is. It's what it isn't that its detractors have an issue with.