Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Is the new Mac Pro a Failure for traditional Mac Creative and Professional customers


  • Total voters
    417
Status
Not open for further replies.
it's not production ready technology yet.. far from it by the looks of it..
and even further still, none of the industry standard design software makes (any) use of it.

we're looking at at least 5-10 years until this is ready for the big time..

you just found out about it a few days ago.. have absolutely nothing useful for it.. yet whining like this over it? cmon dude.

you're talking like "only PC and windows will have VR tech".. and that's far from the truth.
technology spans across all platforms. history should show you this.
 
Yep, I wonder why the AR/VR subject has come up? Maybe to start another endless discussion?
Because it is the next big thing. It is going to be more then just games.

Imagine being able to work around a model as you design it. You don't need to zoom in you walk up and take a look at it.

It could be a game changer for 3D games, modeling and even CAD.

I know I'm buying one right away and going to put together a basic CAD tool as a proof of concept. I have the old IDE version that I can convert fairly quickly.

Edit:

The funny thing is. Gee my machine I built is setup to be able to use one graphics card per eye for Oculus rift. :D It ought to be interesting trying to hem and haw and go on about how the late 2013 Mac Pro is even close to adequate.

I keep hearing that it is a Final Cut Pro machine. That's great I'm glad out of all the professional uses they focused on one task for a general purpose device. The worst part is I bet if Final Cut was available for Windows the Mac Pro would be put to shame there too.
 
Last edited:
fwiw:

-------
https://www.macrumors.com/2015/05/15/oculus-rift-development-os-x/

"Oculus Rift Development on OS X 'Paused' to Focus on Strong Windows Launch"
[...]
"today's news of a delayed launch on Mac and Linux will undoubtedly be disappointing for many fans. For those interested in seeing what sort of system requirements the virtual reality headset will require on Windows PC's, check out Binstock's full blog post here."
 
Well Flat Five, i worked recently on some VR projects myself and had to switch to Windows to do the job. OSx was not working great with it and the lack of good drivers where a big problem. So whats behind a "strong Windows launch"? Maybe the lack of hardcore GPU in any Apple machine could be an thing. For sure, a much bigger market with Windows could be a thing.. and its getting clear with the latest info, that u need a very fast GPU to have a good VR experience.

Things that peak around the corner with an older system like the nMP that it can fail when 2015 / 2016 tech needs to be powered. We all know that things can go very fast in tech land. I am worried for the Apple users (creators / programmers) , that they will not be happy.

I worked with the DK2 kit and it was really fun to walk around in the very near (PC) future. I am curious where Apple will be when VR in Q1 / Q2 - 2016 kicks in.

Ps: U say that it will take atleast 5 - 10 years before this technology is good enough, than you are so absolutely not knowing what your saying. Almost every developer i work with, are hardcore working on VR stuff all-ready for 1 year. It will explode very soon. New GPU's are underway that outperforms the latest generation nvidia (Pascal) and that is just a new range of GPU for the next year. I give it 2 years and it will be as normal as you do a 360 video now on youtube, to walk through your new to build home at your chair, with your (i)phone that is VR-ready (or what ever they will call it) on your head.

Is this all about the nMP? Maybe, maybe not. Fact is that VR is a big thing, huge market, huge future, and with an Professional workstation like the nMP, you should be worried where its going to and you have to switch to Windows for most of the time. (at this moment)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hamado
So far, all of the major APIs for VR are on Windows platform. And that may be the main reason why there is no VR on OS X ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: linuxcooldude
So far, all of the major APIs for VR are on Windows platform. And that may be the main reason why there is no VR on OS X ;)

In the beginning, there where OSX drivers (Oculus) but stopt updating it. I think, with a PC its a bit more easier to develop such things because you can play with the PC configuration. Latest news was that the Rift prefer an very fast GPU + that the VR glasses are a bit more expensive as they would be in the first place. Early adopters may have to update there GPU to.
 
Perfectly reasonable to get a PC to do VR. In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to get a PC to do anything that you feel the Mac isn't good at, this isn't a contest. The hypothetical Tower Mac 2016 would still have needed to Bootcamp into Windows to run this stuff. Much easier just to have a dedicated PC to do it, especially when it's all at the SDK stage. And, if you're doing Oculus right now, you're either a developer or a hardcore early adopter hobbyist and you're paying a premium anyway. This isn't the mainstream VR experience - that will come when the GPUs in consoles and midrange laptops are up to it and the glasses are half the price.
 
Perfectly reasonable to get a PC to do VR. In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to get a PC to do anything that you feel the Mac isn't good at, this isn't a contest. The hypothetical Tower Mac 2016 would still have needed to Bootcamp into Windows to run this stuff. Much easier just to have a dedicated PC to do it, especially when it's all at the SDK stage. And, if you're doing Oculus right now, you're either a developer or a hardcore early adopter hobbyist and you're paying a premium anyway. This isn't the mainstream VR experience - that will come when the GPUs in consoles and midrange laptops are up to it and the glasses are half the price.

yes, this! but that fase will come soon all-ready.
 
Well Flat Five, i worked recently on some VR projects myself and had to switch to Windows to do the job. OSx was not working great with it and the lack of good drivers where a big problem. So whats behind a "strong Windows launch"? Maybe the lack of hardcore GPU in any Apple machine could be an thing. For sure, a much bigger market with Windows could be a thing.. and its getting clear with the latest info, that u need a very fast GPU to have a good VR experience.

Things that peak around the corner with an older system like the nMP that it can fail when 2015 / 2016 tech needs to be powered. We all know that things can go very fast in tech land. I am worried for the Apple users (creators / programmers) , that they will not be happy.

I worked with the DK2 kit and it was really fun to walk around in the very near (PC) future. I am curious where Apple will be when VR in Q1 / Q2 - 2016 kicks in.

Ps: U say that it will take atleast 5 - 10 years before this technology is good enough, than you are so absolutely not knowing what your saying. Almost every developer i work with, are hardcore working on VR stuff all-ready for 1 year. It will explode very soon. New GPU's are underway that outperforms the latest generation nvidia (Pascal) and that is just a new range of GPU for the next year. I give it 2 years and it will be as normal as you do a 360 video now on youtube, to walk through your new to build home at your chair, with your (i)phone that is VR-ready (or what ever they will call it) on your head.

Is this all about the nMP? Maybe, maybe not. Fact is that VR is a big thing, huge market, huge future, and with an Professional workstation like the nMP, you should be worried where its going to and you have to switch to Windows for most of the time. (at this moment)

+1 +1 +1

Funny hearing all this "Oh, it's not important, Apple still has everyone beat on thin & shiny, so that's OK" when it is SO obviously a bunch of (putrid) Kool Aid. VR will be THE new tech this year.

Apple insisting that drivers get written for 4 year old GPUs or their renamed mobile GPUs was enough reason to move the party to Windows. The ship has sailed.
 
Funny hearing all this "Oh, it's not important, Apple still has everyone beat on thin & shiny, so that's OK"
except nobody is, you know, saying that.
i get how you wish that's what people were saying because then you may have some valid points but again.. nobody is saying that.. or even implying that.
[doublepost=1452483485][/doublepost]
VR will be THE new tech this year.
without a doubt, it will be one of the most exciting technologies to come out of this decade.

but it will not be THE tech this year.
in case you haven't noticed, the current implementation requires some rather prominent and awkward looking headgear.
do you really think that's going to go mainstream?

those things are like the 'bad' aspects of google glasses x1000
 
I'll accept that you are the expert on this.
except is takes nothing but a casual observation to realize these are rather prominent and awkward looking.

Screen Shot 2016-01-10 at 11.49.36 PM.png


are you actually disagreeing with this?


.
 
If Apple isn't offering something you want, buy something else. It's not like Apple is the only computer manufacturer out there. I personally feel that quite many people complaining on these boards are Windows users that made the switch to Mac when they got their first iPhone and then realized they couldn't do everything they wanted on the machine.
I'm using my machine to do work as well as normal private usage, I don't need huge GPU performance for either of that.

I see loads of comments about gaming on a Mac Pro and then about it being too expensive not to support games.

Seriously? did those people buy their Mac Pro as some status thing? I know a few persons who actually did just that, they got the most expensive Mac they could just to show off, then their usage for it was to browse the web and watch pirated tv shows in vlc... Something even a low end MacBook Air could do... Which they also realized a few months later when they sold their Mac Pro and bought a cheaper machine....

Personally I've always said that I buy computers that I can save up to in 3 months. Whatever that gets me I'll get. this time around it will be about $3000-3500, no reason to put more than 3 months worth of savings into a computer ... If I was using it for just surfing the web and watching movies I'd buy a Mac mini.
I did the same when I was a student, usually it got me a mid range pc or as in 2005 a Mac mini (the cheapest pc I ever got was ~$300).


Don't really know what I wanted with this post, mostly complain about people buying computers they don't even use to 10% of their potential for ********s of money just to get some
sort of trophy to show off to their friends.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ManuelGomes
[MOD NOTE]
A number of posts were removed, due to the thread degenerating into bickering.

Please remember the MacRumors Rules for Appropriate Debate
Respect

Guidelines: Show respect for your fellow posters. Expect and accept that other users may have strongly held opinions that differ from yours. In other words, basic human courtesy.

Rules:
  1. Name-calling. Name-calling falls into the category of insults and will be treated as such according to the forum rules, your own opinion about another member notwithstanding. You can't call a bigot a bigot, a troll a troll, or a fanboy a fanboy, any more than you can call an idiot an idiot. You can disagree with the content of another member's statement or give your evidence or opinion to dispute their claims, but you may not make a negative personal characterization about that member.
  2. Insults. Slurs and insults against groups of people based on negative-stereotyping and obvious generalizations fall into the category of trolling and will be treated as such.
  3. Taunting. Mocking or taunting another forum member is not acceptable. Posts that ridicule another member or obviously exaggerate or misstate their views may be removed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cerberusss
EDIT: currency conversion fix.

At the risk of dragging us back to the topic at hand, i.e. the nMP, I really don't get the stuff-everything-into-one-case philosophy any more.

Probably because the paradigm is being misapplied.

The "all in one case" is not the capability - - it is merely the implementation.

The capability itself is an effective means of providing a flexible architecture to suit different work environments & needs...and a key word here is "effective". This means that the 'cost' of affording XYZ capability change/enhancement should be commensurate with the overall system...and this encompasses not only fiscal cost ($ or £), but also other factors, such as size, noise level, interfaces, environmental compatibility...a whole bunch of stuff.

When the nMP was released, that seemed to me to be the writing on the wall for internal storage.

Yes, it did seem that way ... until one actually sharpened your pencil to look at the ramifications of this 'future' that it represented.

The 2013 nMP lacked a 10Gbit Ethernet port, so that protocol as a means of implementing effective high performance data storage wasn't an option (per se ... today, its a $300/node option on the desktop side).

Similarly, it lacked any TB ports on its front, so even the concept of "Sneaker Net" transport between systems failed the most basic User Interface (UI) test.

Furthermore, because of the relatively high expense of TB, the cost of external storage was higher too.

It seemed obvious to me then and far more so now that M.2 is the way to go for fast storage. So what's the point of having room for legacy spinning rust in a new machine?

M.2 is merely the implementation of a capability (fast storage) .. so where is there the implementation to enhance fast storage such as by having open M.2 expansion ports? When none are present, just what is the alternative to provide said capability? Right: it is once again those expensive & hard to reach TB ports on the back of the machine.

If spinning rust means that much to you, is £120 for a 4 bay RAID 5 eSATA enclosure really that terrible?

When you do the math, yes.

Because that £120 (= $175) expense is above and beyond the costs of the "spinning rust" drives themselves...plus before you've also paid for the TB-eSATA adaptor ($73 = £50). For example, simplistically assume four internal drives at $150 each versus the cost of the same put into that enclosure: the cost for the capability grows from (4 * $150) to (4 * $150 + $175 + $73) --> $600 vs $848--> 1:1.42 ... that's a 40% cost growth just to maintain the same level of capability!.

Having switched to a Qnap GBE (which is far slower than eSATA) NAS, all it took was a minor workflow change and the office here is notably more organised.

And we've had this conversation before: the hitch is still that 10Gbit Ethernet isn't cheap yet, as neither the cMP nor nMP shipped with it.

In the same way, I really don't get people screaming that they need PCIe slots. Everything is already there on Thunderbolt.

With the same basic capability costing substantially more when implemented through TB.

The only example anyone has managed to give of something that's beyond Thunderbolt is an M.2 RAID card that delivers 5GBps+ ...

The performance bar will always be on the move (and the bleeding edge will be expensive). I am a bit concerned that saying 5GBps+ may be a bit of a misnomer because that's faster than the nMP's internal blade's performance (approx. 1.5GBps in sequential), which threatens to then be the system level bottleneck.

And while ~1.5GBps of the nMP's internal blade is vastly better than what the cMP did out-of-the-box, much of this was due to neglect in the cMP not getting its SATA-II 0.3GBps interface to at least SATA-III...but this observation on its own is side-stepping this discussion's primary point, namely that the cMP's architectural design was an enabler for flexibility. Case in point: using post-OEM solutions, the cMP was able to double its 0.3GBps to 0.6-0.7GBps way back in 2012, and there was another doubling in 2015 to where a cMP can now match/beat the nMP's 1.5GBps:

http://barefeats.com/hard200.html

BTW, also do take heed to note that the deployment of this capability has been constrained ... commercially, not technologically.


-hh
 
Last edited:
EDIT: currency conversion fix.



Probably because the paradigm is being misapplied.

The "all in one case" is not the capability - - it is merely the implementation.

The capability itself is an effective means of providing a flexible architecture to suit different work environments & needs...and a key word here is "effective". This means that the 'cost' of affording XYZ capability change/enhancement should be commensurate with the overall system...and this encompasses not only fiscal cost ($ or £), but also other factors, such as size, noise level, interfaces, environmental compatibility...a whole bunch of stuff.



Yes, it did seem that way ... until one actually sharpened your pencil to look at the ramifications of this 'future' that it represented.

The 2013 nMP lacked a 10Gbit Ethernet port, so that protocol as a means of implementing effective high performance data storage wasn't an option (per se ... today, its a $300/node option on the desktop side).

Similarly, it lacked any TB ports on its front, so even the concept of "Sneaker Net" transport between systems failed the most basic User Interface (UI) test.

Furthermore, because of the relatively high expense of TB, the cost of external storage was higher too.



M.2 is merely the implementation of a capability (fast storage) .. so where is there the implementation to enhance fast storage such as by having open M.2 expansion ports? When none are present, just what is the alternative to provide said capability? Right: it is once again those expensive & hard to reach TB ports on the back of the machine.



When you do the math, yes.

Because that £120 (= $175) expense is above and beyond the costs of the "spinning rust" drives themselves...plus before you've also paid for the TB-eSATA adaptor ($73 = £50). For example, simplistically assume four internal drives at $150 each versus the cost of the same put into that enclosure: the cost for the capability grows from (4 * $150) to (4 * $150 + $175 + $73) --> $600 vs $848--> 1:1.42 ... that's a 40% cost growth just to maintain the same level of capability!.



And we've had this conversation before: the hitch is still that 10Gbit Ethernet isn't cheap yet, as neither the cMP nor nMP shipped with it.



With the same basic capability costing substantially more when implemented through TB.



The performance bar will always be on the move (and the bleeding edge will be expensive). I am a bit concerned that saying 5GBps+ may be a bit of a misnomer because that's faster than the nMP's internal blade's performance (approx. 1.5GBps in sequential), which threatens to then be the system level bottleneck.

And while ~1.5GBps of the nMP's internal blade is vastly better than what the cMP did out-of-the-box, much of this was due to neglect in the cMP not getting its SATA-II 0.3GBps interface to at least SATA-III...but this observation on its own is side-stepping this discussion's primary point, namely that the cMP's architectural design was an enabler for flexibility. Case in point: using post-OEM solutions, the cMP was able to double its 0.3GBps to 0.6-0.7GBps way back in 2012, and there was another doubling in 2015 to where a cMP can now match/beat the nMP's 1.5GBps:

http://barefeats.com/hard200.html

BTW, also do take heed to note that the deployment of this capability has been constrained ... commercially, not technologically.


-hh

A point for thunderbolt is its versatility. You are right that thunderbolt peripherals carry extra cost but they will now work with any Apple (or PC with thunderbolt) product. If you are managing IT for a large company you can simply distribute the 10 Gbe thunderbolt connections to the users who need them. You don't have to worry about whether they are using a mac pro or a macbook pro, just hand them the adapter and they can plug it in. The same thing applies for external storage and in this case you can offer someone more drives than they could physically fit in most PC cases.

In terms of "sneaker net," I don't think a forward thinking machine should be designed around the idea that external drives will be the primary method of shuffling around data to and from other machines. If a user desires it that badly simply get a usb or thunderbolt hub that sits on the desk and is easy to access.
 
It really becomes easy when thinking that TB3 is a total new connector and for every cable, you now need an adapter. This is truly "pro" and "hassle free", right? RIGHT, APPLE?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tuxon86
To wrap misconceptions about Apple, VR, and Rift I will say this.

There is a very big possibility that Oculus is not developing for OS X because... it is very likely that Apple is preparing their own VR hardware.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/apples-virtual-reality-vr-rumours-images-3601447/

And there is a word, that AMD provided few months ago for Apple engineering samples of their APUs, or custom designed hardware. What for? Apple TV/Console from Apple that can run VR.

Metal comes here into play, also.

Im writing this because right now, I can.
 
It really becomes easy when thinking that TB3 is a total new connector and for every cable, you now need an adapter. This is truly "pro" and "hassle free", right? RIGHT, APPLE?

USB currently has 11 different connectors. Its inevitable with changing technology.



To wrap misconceptions about Apple, VR, and Rift I will say this.

There is a very big possibility that Oculus is not developing for OS X because... it is very likely that Apple is preparing their own VR hardware.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/apples-virtual-reality-vr-rumours-images-3601447/

And there is a word, that AMD provided few months ago for Apple engineering samples of their APUs, or custom designed hardware. What for? Apple TV/Console from Apple that can run VR.

Metal comes here into play, also.

Im writing this because right now, I can.

I know Apple is looking into VR technology and have seen some of their patents on it. But I think the main reason for focusing on Windows is because of the larger market share and adoption rate it will bring. Considering it will also start with gaming first also better on a window platform for now.

But its interesting in perhaps if Apple will incorporate VR in perhaps a television. I don't see VR in an AppleTV as the large requirements needed, so perhaps a different box for that.
 
Last edited:
USB has currently 11 different connectors. Its inevitable with changing technology.
I was going to give an example of display output connectors: VGA, DVI-I, DVI-D, DVI-A (and dual/single out of the first two), Displayport, mini-displayport, hdmi, mini-hdmi, micro-hdmi and so on.
But your example was better as it is the same protocol :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: linuxcooldude
Status
Not open for further replies.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.