M1 Mac External Display - Fuzzy Fonts & Colors - YPBPR vs RGB

[aednichols]

why won't Apple just let us force RGB?

There is no way to know. Our best bet is to file Feedbacks. My often-repeated suggestion:

Filed FB8946046 through Feedback Assistant. I encourage anyone affected to also file, referencing this number.

Make sure your problematic display is connected at the time of writing the feedback so that it is present in the system profile sent to Apple.

Bug Reporting - Apple Developer

Now with Feedback Assistant available on iPhone, iPad, Mac, and the web, it’s easier to submit effective bug reports and request enhancements to APIs and tools.

developer.apple.com

 

[aednichols]

P2715Q
After macos beta 11.4, the RGB mode is displayed correctly

Bye bye Ypbpr,

but
This RGB is just a way for Dell to communicate,
When I use DisplayCAL to calibrate the color, when the RGB is adjusted to its normal degree, the color displayed by the monitor is strange (towards green)

Interesting, this is the first report I've heard on 11.4. A bit lazy to install betas myself.

 

[Kotze203]

Interesting, this is the first report I've heard on 11.4. A bit lazy to install betas myself.

I installed 11.4 today (super easy) and the two times I turned on my MacBook since then it was in RGB. Will report back to tell if it ever went back to YPbPr.

 

[Kotze203]

I installed 11.4 today (super easy) and the two times I turned on my MacBook since then it was in RGB. Will report back to tell if it ever went back to YPbPr.

So it is the next day and I have turned off and on my MacBook probably like 3 times and it is still on RGB. I am pretty hopeful, but I also know that it might just be random because it was definitely sometimes working BEFORE updating to 11.4. Anyways, I encourage everyone to try it.

 

[Martin_tintin]

As I've said few times in this thread, there is no difference in font look between RGB and YPbPr (unless your monitor is using overscan for YPbPr). My Dell U2518D keeps changing RGB and YPbPr mode daily. Just colors seem more saturated in YPbPr mode even mine still seem to display full 0-255 range even then.

Maybe your Dell S3220DGF acts the same way as mine? If your monitor goes in YPbPr mode try restart your Mac, if still the same then try power off/on your Mac, that usually works in mine. Sometimes I need to do that several times, and sporadically even power down my monitor, but eventually I get RGB mode and it stays until maybe next power off or restart.

There have difference if you calibrate your monitor.
Displaycal can't recognize your monitor model it will just recognize your monitor as a TV.
For a content creator / design field that is not acceptable for color management / color calibrations.

 

[0906742]

There have difference if you calibrate your monitor.
Displaycal can't recognize your monitor model it will just recognize your monitor as a TV.
For a content creator / design field that is not acceptable for color management / color calibrations.

Yeah, that obviously is an issue if calibration software forces to TV calibration, there are obvious difference between computer and TV settings. Probably it tries to make it 16-235 range and maybe even different type gamma and color space, so in that case YPbPr might not work at all.

 

[GJtn7]

There have difference if you calibrate your monitor.
Displaycal can't recognize your monitor model it will just recognize your monitor as a TV.
For a content creator / design field that is not acceptable for color management / color calibrations.

This DPReview forums thread has an interesting discussion on the issue of calibration. A Manager / Lead Developer from calibration company Datacolor explains how YUV is not an issue.

There is also this statement by Benq on Reddit saying it’s not an issue with their SW series monitors.

As a side note, I seem to be getting a correct dynamic range output from the M1 MacBook Pro now (over HDMI). It looks close to identical to the output from our old Intel MacBook Pro with the RGB edid override applied. All monitor colour tests look fine now and the Benq monitor is auto detecting 0-255 range (16-235 a week or so ago). The M1 MacBook Pro was recently updated to 11.3.1 and also had DisplayLink Manager installed to use a Dell USB-C dock at work, but not used with our monitor at home.

 

[SpitUK]

I have ordered one of these and it’s being delivered tomorrow…

DM431K bmiiipx - Tech Specs | Monitors | Acer United States

DM431K bmiiipx

www.acer.com

Ordered a USB-C to DisplayPort cable as well.
Hopefully it fixes it with my M1 Mac Mini.

 

[mmackowiak]

I believe I am coming with some good news. Dell U2520D was working only in YPbPr mode on macOS 11.3.1, however on 11.5 beta it works in RGB all the time, without any issues! Unfortunately it only works with M1 Mini connected using USB-C<>USB-C cable, with HDMI<>HDMI it still sticks to YPbPr format.

 

[Sxr71]

I believe I am coming with some good news. Dell U2520D was working only in YPbPr mode on macOS 11.3.1, however on 11.5 beta it works in RGB all the time, without any issues! Unfortunately it only works with M1 Mini connected using USB-C<>USB-C cable, with HDMI<>HDMI it still sticks to YPbPr format.

Oh man. Like I have enough ports on this to burn one for the display. I'll tell you it will get fixed when the new model arrives.

 

[Kotze203]

I believe I am coming with some good news. Dell U2520D was working only in YPbPr mode on macOS 11.3.1, however on 11.5 beta it works in RGB all the time, without any issues! Unfortunately it only works with M1 Mini connected using USB-C<>USB-C cable, with HDMI<>HDMI it still sticks to YPbPr format.

Can confirm, haven't had YPbPr a single time since upgrading to 11.4 even.

 

[Robospungo]

I believe I am coming with some good news. Dell U2520D was working only in YPbPr mode on macOS 11.3.1, however on 11.5 beta it works in RGB all the time, without any issues! Unfortunately it only works with M1 Mini connected using USB-C<>USB-C cable, with HDMI<>HDMI it still sticks to YPbPr format.

Is text pixelated on that display using Mac OS?

I’ve considered buying a 24” 1440p monitor for potential future use with an M1 Mac, but have heard bad things about Apple’s removal of subpixel antialiasing.

 

[Kotze203]

Is text pixelated on that display using Mac OS?

I’ve considered buying a 24” 1440p monitor for potential future use with an M1 Mac, but have heard bad things about Apple’s removal of subpixel antialiasing.

Yes it is not ideal. Looks a little washed out.

 

[0906742]

Anyone managed to get fonts looking perfect using 2560x1440 in 2K (2560x1440 panel) monitors?

I'm currently have font smoothing set to 0 and it is better than default but far from what it looks in Windows using the same monitor + resolution. I guess one more thing to test would be using command to set font smoothing old style, I though I saw script for that somewhere and I guess Tinkertools have that option(?). Would that improve fonts?

 

[0906742]

Is text pixelated on that display using Mac OS?

I’ve considered buying a 24” 1440p monitor for potential future use with an M1 Mac, but have heard bad things about Apple’s removal of subpixel antialiasing.

I have Dell U2518D (2560x1440 panel) and text is very bad with Mac OS default settings. I don't expect it looking any different in any other 2K (2560x1440 panel) monitors.

However I got it tolerable by using terminal command to set font smoothing to 0 (default is 2 and it made fonts look weird fuzzy and bold looking). Still text is more or less blocky with tweaked setting but that with extra CSS script for Safari made it somewhat more usable for me.

Anyway, as I mentioned in my previous message maybe one more thing could improve a bit but I'm afraid only getting 4K or above monitor is what gives you fonts looking like what you get in Mac's with build in displays...
So unless you already own a 2K monitor IMHO I don't think it would be good choice to buy one for Mac use these days, unless they do something to give fonts looking like what you get in Windows.

 

[Robospungo]

I have Dell U2518D (2560x1440 panel) and text is very bad with Mac OS default settings. I don't expect it looking any different in any other 2K (2560x1440 panel) monitors.

However I got it tolerable by using terminal command to set font smoothing to 0 (default is 2 and it made fonts look weird fuzzy and bold looking). Still text is more or less blocky with tweaked setting but that with extra CSS script for Safari made it somewhat more usable for me.

Anyway, as I mentioned in my previous message maybe one more thing could improve a bit but I'm afraid only getting 4K or above monitor is what gives you fonts looking like what you get in Mac's with build in displays...
So unless you already own a 2K monitor IMHO I don't think it would be good choice to buy one for Mac use these days, unless they do something to give fonts looking like what you get in Windows.

Thanks. Looks like the outrageously expensive LG 4k Ultrafine is my only option, as I don't want to go any higher than 24".

 

[0906742]

Thanks. Looks like the outrageously expensive LG 4k Ultrafine is my only option, as I don't want to go any higher than 24".

Yeah, I would be happy with 24"-25" 4K monitor myself too but there are not many good options. Mentioned LG Ultrafine seems good choice but I would be using the same monitor on my two Windows PC's too, and that model really lack additional inputs and is in many ways optimized only for Mac use.

Too bad since my U2518D (25") is otherwise very good monitor and excellent factory calibration.
So I'm eyeing for 27" Dell U2720Q 4K and probably will get that eventually.
Still testing whether I could find a way to optimize my current one for Mac too. It just depend so much what I'm doing with it, like this Macrumors page with my tweaked settings look very good but some web sites very bad, seems it is depending on what kind of settings are defined in web page code. Too bad that Mac OS font smoothing setting is not automatically working the same in every situations...

 

[DevPod]

I've managed to get my Dell U2720Q consistently running RGB for a few days now, running an M1 Mac Mini. The monitor going to sleep doesn't reset it back to YPBPR, nor does putting the Mac Mini to sleep.

To force the initial switch to RGB, I did the following:

• Using the monitor OSD, switch the HDR mode from OFF to DisplayHDR.
• Navigate to System Preferences > Display, and below the resolution scaling menu you should see a check box labelled High Dynamic Range: Automatically adjust the display to show high dynamic range content. The box should be unchecked by default - go ahead and check this box.
• You'll notice that the monitor colour is now somewhat washed out. Ignore this, we'll revert it back to normal in a few steps.
• Restart your M1 Mac.
• When it boots back up, log in, and check your monitor OSD. The colour output should still be YPBPR.
• Navigate back to System Preferences > Display, and uncheck the High Dynamic Range check box.
• Your Display Colour Profile will also have reset back to default. Go ahead and switch this back to Display P3 (my default colour profile of choice.
• Using your monitor OSD, revert the HDR mode from DisplayHDR back to OFF.
• Once your monitor resets, you should see that it is now displaying in RBG and not YPBPR.

It's been about 3/4 days now with no issues, still running in RGB. The only thing that does seem to reset it back to YPBPR is changing the display resolution scaling, after which I just followed the above steps again to switch back to RGB.

Hope this can be a help to those running a Dell U2720Q with their M1 machines!

 

[DevPod]

Anyone managed to get fonts looking perfect using 2560x1440 in 2K (2560x1440 panel) monitors?

I'm currently have font smoothing set to 0 and it is better than default but far from what it looks in Windows using the same monitor + resolution. I guess one more thing to test would be using command to set font smoothing old style, I though I saw script for that somewhere and I guess Tinkertools have that option(?). Would that improve fonts?

I used to run a U2520D display (25" at 2K), and I used TinkerTool to do just that. It does make fonts look marginally better, but they're still not amazing. You can also play around with the Sharpness settings on your monitor OSD if you want to further tweak the look.

But at the end of the day, there's only really so much you can do to improve text clarity on a 1440p display. I eventually grew tired of it and purchased a U2720Q (27" at 4K), and the difference in font clarity is night and day. I run it at a scaling of "looks like" 1440p with font smoothing set to 0, and from a normal sitting distance the text clarity and sharpness is indistinguishable to that of a Macbook display, it's honestly pretty amazing.

I would absolutely recommend making the switch to a 4K display with a higher DPI if text clarity is important to you, you won't regret it and your eyes will thank you.

 

[SpitUK]

Fixed all my issues moving to an Acer 43” 4K monitor with DisplayPort.

 

[gogoggoo]

Is text pixelated on that display using Mac OS?

I’ve considered buying a 24” 1440p monitor for potential future use with an M1 Mac, but have heard bad things about Apple’s removal of subpixel antialiasing.

I tried the U2520D and P2721Q in store with my M1 Air, went with the 4k P2721Q in the end because the text was visibly less clear on the U2520D. Decided to give up a bit of colour accuracy but you can go for the U2720Q too.

 

[0906742]

I tried the U2520D and P2721Q in store with my M1 Air, went with the 4k P2721Q in the end because the text was visibly less clear on the U2520D. Decided to give up a bit of colour accuracy but you can go for the U2720Q too.

I considered too P2721Q but I think I want P3 monitor so probably end up getting U2720Q. I checked price history and saw it has been sold few times close to the price what that other model is currently, so hopefully that happens again soon.

Can you comment how fonts look in P2721Q when you select 2560x1440 looks like resolution? Is it much worse than 1920x1080 looks like resolution which would be the best as 2x scaling instead of 1.5x scaling at 2560x1440?
Can you see any difference in fonts between the two looks like resolutions? Does it still look like what you see in Apple build in displays?

Also do you have Windows machine connected to same monitor? I have two Windows PC I need to connect also and I'm not sure how Windows 10 will look like when using 3840x2160 with 150% font scaling that would equal to 2560x1440 fonts... This is hard choice since Windows 10 currently has excellent fonts with my U2518D running at native 2560x1440, so probably quite a big tradeoff coming from that when using 4K monitor.

 

[Sarpanch]

I considered too P2721Q but I think I want P3 monitor so probably end up getting U2720Q. I checked price history and saw it has been sold few times close to the price what that other model is currently, so hopefully that happens again soon.

Can you comment how fonts look in P2721Q when you select 2560x1440 looks like resolution? Is it much worse than 1920x1080 looks like resolution which would be the best as 2x scaling instead of 1.5x scaling at 2560x1440?
Can you see any difference in fonts between the two looks like resolutions? Does it still look like what you see in Apple build in displays?

Also do you have Windows machine connected to same monitor? I have two Windows PC I need to connect also and I'm not sure how Windows 10 will look like when using 3840x2160 with 150% font scaling that would equal to 2560x1440 fonts... This is hard choice since Windows 10 currently has excellent fonts with my U2518D running at native 2560x1440, so probably quite a big tradeoff coming from that when using 4K monitor.

Our use case and setup seems to be quite similar. I have been using Dell U2518D for a few years and while it worked amazingly well till macOS High Sierra, the text clarity has been an issue since Mojave.

Things got worse with Catalina and Big Sur as enabling or disabling CGFontRenderingFontSmoothingDisabled has no effect at all. At least with Mojave, text improves by using this command

defaults write -g CGFontRenderingFontSmoothingDisabled -bool NO

With my Windows work laptop, the text clarity is much better. I understand it’s because Windows and macOS use different rendering methods (macOS is more about accuracy and Windows more about legibility? not sure)

Anyway, I found a deal on Amazon for a renewed 27” LG 4K monitor and decided to give it a try. My current setup is a 2018 Mac Mini, M1 Macbook Air, Lenovo Windows Laptop

Here are some observations:
1) Text clarity is far better on the 4K monitor compared to U2518D. This applies to every scaling option including one at 150% (appears like 1440p)
2) Color calibration took some time and tinkering around. Dell Ultrasharp monitors are much better calibrated out of the factory
3) There is no performance lag on M1 Macbook Air whatsoever and all scaling options work great. On 2018 Mac Mini, some animations are marginally slower but very acceptable (thanks to 32GB RAM)
4) Windows 150% Scaling works okay in most apps and text clarity is really good. But my work requires some software which is simply horrendous with any kind of scaling. Tried HIDPI Windows override to fix it, and while it improves a bit, it’s still quiet bad
5) A few days into testing with M1 Macbook Air, the LG 4k screen started flickering. It was triggered by a website with gray and black contrasting against white (Autozone in my case) The flickering persisted even when I switched over to my work laptop. Apparently, it is a known issue with M1 Macs (Link to thread)

So with these issues related to Windows scaling, and flickering on M1 Mac, I ended up returning the 4K monitor. I have decided to continue with my Intel Mac Mini and Dell U2518D for now. I might eventually purchase an M1/M2 iMac when I decide to upgrade and keep U2518D for work.

LG does make a cheaper 24” 4K monitor which can run at 200% HIDPI mode (appears like 1080p) but it is tough to surrender screen real estate after getting used to 1440p

Hope this information helps.

 

[0906742]

Things got worse with Catalina and Big Sur as enabling or disabling CGFontRenderingFontSmoothingDisabled has no effect at all. At least with Mojave, text improves by using this command

defaults write -g CGFontRenderingFontSmoothingDisabled -bool NO

Is that command the same what Tinkertools is referring as old style colored sub pixel?
Just wondering if using Tinkertools would give so additional benefit on that compared to fonts smoothing 0 command?

With my Windows work laptop, the text clarity is much better. I understand it’s because Windows and macOS use different rendering methods (macOS is more about accuracy and Windows more about legibility? not sure)

I have exactly the same finding, there is absolutely no issue with fonts with Windows at 2560x1440 monitor.

Also as I mentioned, font smoothing 0 command combined with CSS script for Safari made browser fonts pretty good in some pages. For example page like this forum looks almost as good as the same on Windows PC.
Then some are terrible having these "boldish" looking fonts.

1) Text clarity is far better on the 4K monitor compared to U2518D. This applies to every scaling option including one at 150% (appears like 1440p)

Did you see any difference in fonts other than size when you tested 2x (1920x1080 looks like) an 1.5x (2560x1440 looks like) scaling?

4) Windows 150% Scaling works okay in most apps and text clarity is really good. But my work requires some software which is simply horrendous with any kind of scaling. Tried HIDPI Windows override to fix it, and while it improves a bit, it’s still quiet bad

Did you notice much performance impact in Windows PC when using scaling instead of your native U2518D?
Also how big / common issue with scaling is with certain software not supporting scaled fonts?

Just wondering how big tradeoffs I will be making elsewhere than MacOS if getting 4K monitor.
I still use my Windows PC's a lot and I want to keep only one monitor on my desk.

5) A few days into testing with M1 Macbook Air, the LG 4k screen started flickering. It was triggered by a website with gray and black contrasting against white (Autozone in my case) The flickering persisted even when I switched over to my work laptop. Apparently, it is a known issue with M1 Macs (Link to thread)

Is this flickering something related to certain monitor or just any 4K monitor running scaled resolution?
I'm considering U2720Q for 4K monitor.

LG does make a cheaper 24” 4K monitor which can run at 200% HIDPI mode (appears like 1080p) but it is tough to surrender screen real estate after getting used to 1440p

I agree there is no way I could go back under 2560x1440 real estate any more. Even my current monitor is only 25" that resolution is excellent for my use.

 

[xraydoc]

Fixed all my issues moving to an Acer 43” 4K monitor with DisplayPort.

More details...! How are you using it? How far away are you sitting? I've been thinking of something like this for my work PC, but image quality is super important and I fear that TV-sized monitors are essentially TVs (which don't meet the same standards as a photo-editing monitor).