M1 Mac External Display - Fuzzy Fonts & Colors - YPBPR vs RGB

[gogoggoo]

I don't understand why is it so difficult for Apple to make such a simple thing so complicated?

While windows does this flawlessly and has scaling to 125 % option inbuilt, Apple makes it difficult for its new users. They are producing a very good hardware but failing to address simple things.

I hope these observations might help someone. Thoughts ?

QHD/2k will never have text as sharp as a 4k monitor because of how Apple implements font smoothing. From Apple's perspective their display approach is a simple thing since it's always about 110ppi and 220ppi for retina if you calculate it for their 5k displays, 4.5k iMac displays, 2k MacBook displays and so on - within their ecosystem it actually works very simply, it gets messy when you head outside. There are some detailed explanations and some tweaks for QHD monitors in the earlier pages of this thread but AlphaCentauri sums it up best below:

Don’t want to sound like a broken record but any 4K or 5K or 5K2K screen with any of available HiDPI mode will result in sharp text and UI elements.

 

[ludmiloff]

It's 14.4 and no RGB mode for my fairly old Dell P2415Q 4k monitor and M1 Mac mini. But, as I mentioned some time ago, when updating, after first reboot I got RGB until next reboot.

I read there are some people trying to get their QHD monitors to work correctly. My advice - give up, QHD monitors have too many problems with fuzzy fonts, too small fonts etc - this with HS, Mojave and Catalina with my MBA 2014 on AOC 2K monitor. A gave up and bought Dell P2415Q.

Btw, when I had AOC 2K monitor I was able to achieve 1280x720 retina like mode. Every thing was super bright and sharp and a bit unusable.

 

[xraydoc]

^^ Agreed. macOS is designed for HiDPI displays (4K and above). No longer looks good with anything less.

 

[0906742]

My advice - give up, QHD monitors have too many problems with fuzzy fonts, too small fonts etc

Yeah, it shows pretty obvious 2K monitors are not supposed to use with MacOS, even it for some reason still supports them. Probably would be better to give no output at all for under 4K monitors under MacOS, if it cannot be done well enough. :/
Anyway, I don't think the size of the fonts is an issue since I would be using 2560x1440 looks like resolution (or even higher) with 4K monitor too and that monitor would be about the same size panel. Also like it can be seen with Windows, there is no problem to display good fonts in 2K monitors too, but I guess it needs some extra work and Windows is really leading there at the moment.

 

[ludmiloff]

I don't think the size of the fonts is an issue ...

In my case the monitor was AOC Q2577 2560x1440 25'' and I really found default font size too small for my eyes.

 

[0906742]

In my case the monitor was AOC Q2577 2560x1440 25'' and I really found default font size too small for my eyes.

I also use currently 25" 2560x1440 Dell U2518D monitor at 2560x1440 native resolution and for me fonts are just about right but I know that is personal preference and not everyone likes fonts this small. I have used this monitor with my Windows machines for years already and I just value screen estate so much I would not even consider going lower than 2560x1440. So I guess even MacOS today supported HiDPI for 2K monitors, it would not do any good for 2K monitor unless running it at some much lower looks like resolution.

However these two tweaks I made in MacOS really makes some difference and with them it is usable.

Also if I understood correctly MacOS preferred displays are 110 or 220 PPI, so 25" 2K monitor is about 117 PPI and very close to "preferred".

 

[ludmiloff]

... so 25" 2K monitor is about 117 PPI and very close to "preferred".

At the time I was misled exactly by this 117PPI ~ 110PPI. The difference was huge for me and my eyes personally.

 

[0906742]

At the time I was misled exactly by this 117PPI ~ 110PPI. The difference was huge for me and my eyes personally.

Yeah, but even so 27" would be more closer to suggested 110PPI and it just will look worse with 2K monitors when going from 25" to 27".
Anyway, it is obvious only HiDPI is the only solution for smooth fonts, so 4K monitor at smaller size is the best option, or 5K but there are even less choices too choose from...

 

[gogoggoo]

Update on my YPbPr/RGB situation. In clamshell mode with M1 air and Dell P2721Q it goes back to YPbPr again. But this time white point looks the same as RGB, unlike pre MacOS 11.4 when I could see an obviously yellower white point on Word docs and old Reddit. So not too worried about it for now since colours are unaffected... If I really want RGB I can just open up the air and exit clamshell mode.
Edit: randomly returns to RGB on some reboots but not others.

 

[AppleNooble]

I bought one of these "Yogi Basic USB-C to Dual Link DVI Active Video Adapter" as GJtn7 suggested, my monitor now works in RGB mode and all the fuzziness is gone! Everyone rush out and buy buy buy!

 

[Altis]

^^ Agreed. macOS is designed for HiDPI displays (4K and above). No longer looks good with anything less.

Yeah, Big Sur has pretty blurry system fonts on my non-retina MBA compared with say Mavericks. I think El Cap was the last one that worked well on non-retina displays.

 

[Kotze203]

So, after more than a week of success on 11.4, my M1 Air has now randomly gone back to YPbPr. FFS

 

[NitDawg]

M1 mini, U3818DW, have never even sniffed RGB...maybe for HDR DPs 11.4 does something, but not for this (I'm native at 3840x1600).

 

[Kotze203]

Played around in my monitor settings a little bit. Turning on "SmartHDR" in the display OSD made the image a little washed out I guess but after turning "SmartHDR" off again the screen is receiving RGB from the MacBook again.

I didn't even know my display had HDR. (Dell U2520D)

Edit: The MacBook treats the U2520D like a different display after turning HDR on or off.

 

[Fishrrman]

I'd like to see a 32" 5k display.
But... nobody seems to make one.

 

[0906742]

So, after more than a week of success on 11.4, my M1 Air has now randomly gone back to YPbPr. FFS

I think it is just pure luck which mode it goes in some displays. My U2518D has been now two days in a row right after first power up in RGB mode. But before that it needed at least one extra restart or full power cycle and this was with 11.4. Anyways fuzzy fonts in 2K monitors in MacOS have nothing to do with RGB vs YPbPr unless display is doing some funny overscannng in YPbPr mode.

 

[x3sphere]

My LG 38GL950G was always in RGB mode prior to the 11.4 update, now YCbCr444. Don't really notice a difference so I guess it's fine

 

[ludmiloff]

Found this long post https://gist.github.com/adaugherity/7435890
and after followed instructions from https://gist.github.com/adaugherity/7435890#gistcomment-3750972, I finally got RGB on my Dell P2415Q 4k monitor and Mac mini M1. For me the procedure failed several times, then I reversed the procedure (HDMI input first, then unplug HDMI cable ...) and got RGB over USB-C to DP cable.

The author seems to have another solution at the end of post, looks like it is permanent or at least until next macOS update, I not tested it tough.

EDIT:
The two cables hack does not survive after computer went to sleep. Plug HDMI and unplug it again, while USB-C to DP was plugged in does the trick - RGB comes again (without restart).

 

[0906742]

OK, I tried that guide and edited plist file on my M1 Mini and it seemed to work. However I did one thing different because I noticed that just couple lines above the lines edited in that guide in my Mini Bitdepth was 10 instead of 8 shown in the video, so to make sure mine does not try to use 10bit with RGB I edited that from 10 to 8. Seems to work. But be careful and make sure you backup the original file before doing anything. Also I think it is better to use CotEditor as in video because I first used just TextEdit and even all seemed to go well I noticed that TextEdit said edited file was corrupted after I converted it to binary again!!! So even all seemed to work with that file too, I restored my original Plist and then did over again with CotEditor and done with it, the resulted file was not reported corrupted not even when I opened it with TextEdit. Also seems to boot in RGB mode now but it was peculiar as I once run also disable Font Smoothing in Terminal to make sure it is still off and after first reboot it went to YPbPr even Plist file was still as I edited it. However after restarts again it goes to RGB, so not sure why that happened.
Anyway, be careful and follow the guide only at your own risk and make sure you have backups (I didn't other than Plist file ).

 

[0906742]

OK, I did some more testing and for some reason seems to revert to YPbPr mode still occasionally, especially if I play with Font Smoothing terminal command, so not sure that plist really does anything. However editing it and booting after that it seems to work. I need to try again but currently I restored my original Plist file as mine it pretty easy to get in RGB mode anyway.

 

[ludmiloff]

OK, I did some more testing and for some reason seems to revert to YPbPr mode still occasionally, especially if I play with Font Smoothing terminal command, so not sure that plist really does anything. However editing it and booting after that it seems to work. I need to try again but currently I restored my original Plist file as mine it pretty easy to get in RGB mode anyway.

Any chance the plist got reverted to their original content after your terminal command?

 

[seadragon]

What is wrong with using YPbPr?

 

[0906742]

Any chance the plist got reverted to their original content after your terminal command?

No, I checked that.

 

[0906742]

I tested it again by starting with screen settings and rotate 90 degree and then back to normal, so this procedure create fresh plist file. Obviously it reverts all what I changed back to default, I guess it read EDID where that comes. Anyway now with the fresh file I again modified plist and it seems to go RGB mode. Need to follow that longer but I guess as long as not touch screen settings it may work, obviously even font smoothing setting does something even then no change seen in plist. Also I noticed that modified plist file size gets much smaller so I'm afraid some authentication code gets lost when editing it, but obviously it seem to recreate file again when ever in screen settings is done something like rotate screen etc. so maybe no permanent damage is done...?

Anyone else experimenting with this yet?

 

[Sarpanch]

I tested it again by starting with screen settings and rotate 90 degree and then back to normal, so this procedure create fresh plist file. Obviously it reverts all what I changed back to default, I guess it read EDID where that comes. Anyway now with the fresh file I again modified plist and it seems to go RGB mode. Need to follow that longer but I guess as long as not touch screen settings it may work, obviously even font smoothing setting does something even then no change seen in plist. Also I noticed that modified plist file size gets much smaller so I'm afraid some authentication code gets lost when editing it, but obviously it seem to recreate file again when ever in screen settings is done something like rotate screen etc. so maybe no permanent damage is done...?

Anyone else experimenting with this yet?

The plist option did work for me using HDMI on a M1 Macbook Air with a Dell U2518D.
Monitor connects in RGB mode and continues in RGB after a reboot as well.

However, it does not survive a sleep cycle. As soon as the laptop and monitor wake from sleep, it connects in YPbPr mode. Interestingly, the plist file remains unchanged. Perhaps, the Mac is reading the config from some cache value which defaults HDMI to YPbPr?

Here are the links to the guide shared by GitHub User GetVladimir.

GitHub Link
Youtube Link