M1 Max MBP has all these unnecessary ports….WTF?!

[fischersd]

Due to the microchip shortage you'll be seeing less development / new devices - companies trying to use what chips are available and not updating their models until it's over.

(this is regarding the micro-USB vs USB-C topic)

 

[Alameda]

By uh n

OK, I'll accept that may be correct. Do you have any references to support it?

In time, the extension of USB-C connector usage will tip the balance of the manufacturing cost in USB-C's favour. This is mentioned in this Reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/cc625p

Let’s take the case of a USC power supply. You build a transformer which converts, say, 100-240VAC to 5V, 5A. The minimum is 0.5A, so you want devices to know they can draw more power. Before USBC, the only USB voltage allowable was 5V, and only the amperage varied.

With “old” USB, you just supply the power to the power pins. You might tie in a resistor to help devices know they can draw more power.

With USBC, it’s a better standard because the discovery mechanism allows devices to handshake and pull up to 100 Watts at several different voltage levels. But you need silicon logic to do this, and that logic costs money. Period. That silicon can get cheap, but it has to be paid for.

Second, let’s look at a MacBook. Here it’s really simple to see: Those USBC ports are all bi-directional charging ports. You probably think that fifty cents or a dollar extra doesn’t matter in a $1,000-$2,000 computer, but it does. I can say for sure that adding ~100 Watts of charging power to three or four ports is very expensive, and it’s bi-direction to a lower Wattage, which is also very expensive. Those features simply aren’t present in older USB. Without getting into all the details of the BOMs for those power regulators, I can say it’s a certainty that lower end laptops will not have power on all their USBC ports, they’ll have a power icon over just one.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I think this MBP is the frankenmac with all these outdated ports. You can tell Apple lacks vision right now that Steve and Johnny are gone.

 

[Abazigal]

So I really don’t get this at all.

If it were that small of percentage apple wouldn’t have done this. I doubt you have statistics on who actually uses and needs those ports. Apple does. And likely they found users wanted these ports. Apple prefers minimalism whenever possible so adding these ports sort of goes against their whole MO - meaning there had to be good reason to justify adding them. If it was such a small percentage that’s not good reason.

Why is adding ports a bad thing? If you don’t want them, don’t use them?

It ultimately comes down to opportunity cost. Those ports I don’t need are taking up the place of ports which I could be using. That SD-card slot could be another USB-A port, for instance.

But Apple designs their products to meet the needs of as wide an audience as possible, so you will never have a product which meets an individual’s needs 100%.

So it’s not so straightforward as to just say “don’t like it, don’t use it”. It’s not just about what I do have, but what I could have had.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Let’s take the case of a USC power supply. You build a transformer which converts, say, 100-240VAC to 5V, 5A. The minimum is 0.5A, so you want devices to know they can draw more power. Before USBC, the only USB voltage allowable was 5V, and only the amperage varied.

With “old” USB, you just supply the power to the power pins. You might tie in a resistor to help devices know they can draw more power.

With USBC, it’s a better standard because the discovery mechanism allows devices to handshake and pull up to 100 Watts at several different voltage levels. But you need silicon logic to do this, and that logic costs money. Period. That silicon can get cheap, but it has to be paid for.

Second, let’s look at a MacBook. Here it’s really simple to see: Those USBC ports are all bi-directional charging ports. You probably think that fifty cents or a dollar extra doesn’t matter in a $1,000-$2,000 computer, but it does. I can say for sure that adding ~100 Watts of charging power to three or four ports is very expensive, and it’s bi-direction to a lower Wattage, which is also very expensive. Those features simply aren’t present in older USB. Without getting into all the details of the BOMs for those power regulators, I can say it’s a certainty that lower end laptops will not have power on all their USBC ports, they’ll have a power icon over just one.

I'm sure that power delivery functionality does indeed cost a lot more, but bear in mind that this is optional in the spec.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C

A device with a Type-C connector does not necessarily implement USB, USB Power Delivery, or any Alternate Mode: the Type-C connector is common to several technologies while mandating only a few of them.[5]

...but if we are comparing the features you find on a USB-A port, then it obviously needs to support at least USB 2.0 and outputing 500mW power. That may still be more expensive to implement.

Maybe even the physical connector is more expensive because it has a lot more pins and finer engineering tolerances.

This obviuosly doesn't help adoption at the low end of the market with cheap devices costing < $50 where a $1-2 increase is very significant. Much like electric cars, there needs to be price-parity before widespread adoption is possible.

 

[Fomalhaut]

I think this MBP is the frankenmac with all these outdated ports. You can tell Apple lacks vision right now that Steve and Johnny are gone.

So after 22 pages of arguments, mostly explaining the benefits of the ports, you still haven't shifted from your original position one iota?

Simple solution - don't buy this computer if it bothers you so much. Apple still makes computers without the ports that offend you.

Or simply don't use the ports that you don't personally need. Other people will find them useful, and Apple is catering for them, not you.

 

[Fomalhaut]

It ultimately comes down to opportunity cost. Those ports I don’t need are taking up the place of ports which I could be using. That SD-card slot could be another USB-A port, for instance.

But Apple designs their products to meet the needs of as wide an audience as possible, so you will never have a product which meets an individual’s needs 100%.

So it’s not so straightforward as to just say “don’t like it, don’t use it”. It’s not just about what I do have, but what I could have had.

Perhaps there is a market for custom configuraable computers with modular ports? That certainly exists in the desktop world where you can add PCI-e cards with various ports. I've bought small cards that add eSATA and USB-C connectors to an old deskop, and it proved pretty useful. I think this has been tried by at least one mobile phone manufacturer, but I don't think it ever gained any traction.

Apple, like any vendor, is trying to maximize their market. There must have done some research and determined that adding common ports would be popular with enough of their target market to have a net positive effect on sales. They understand that this would be seen as unnecessary by many users, and even upset some users such as the OP, but probably not enough to dissaude them from buying the computer at all.

It doesn't matter that a few people are disappointed as long as they still buy the computer, and can live with some regrets that they can't have the "perfect computer" (for them).

[ On a philosophical note, this may just be symptom of the societal trend of feeling entitlemed to a world that meets your every desire. Perhaps we should pay more attention to the message of the "Serenity Prayer":

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.[1]

You can't change Apple's design, so serenely accept the situation. Here endeth the lesson.... ]

 

[Jorbanead]

It ultimately comes down to opportunity cost. Those ports I don’t need are taking up the place of ports which I could be using. That SD-card slot could be another USB-A port, for instance.

But Apple designs their products to meet the needs of as wide an audience as possible, so you will never have a product which meets an individual’s needs 100%.

So it’s not so straightforward as to just say “don’t like it, don’t use it”. It’s not just about what I do have, but what I could have had.

That could be said about any port config though. Compared to the old MacBook Pro, this port config really just adds additional options for users: Since the last notebook didn’t have MagSafe, the 4th TB port was mainly used for power (as most users aren’t plugging into all 4 ports while on battery). So this argument could also be made for the last models too.

What would have made for a better discussion is “why doesn’t apple use X port” instead of “why are there all these unnecessary ports”. Because they’re not unnecessary. You personally just don’t find a use for all of them. Doesn’t make them unnecessary though.

 

[Alameda]

Most of the 21 pages are a majority people trying to explain to a tiny minority why adding very useful 'legacy'* functionality to a product isn't a bad thing even if you personally don't need it.

*not that I agree that HDMI or SD sockets are Legacy/obsolete. Literally millions of in-use devices worldwide still use them, immeasurably in excess of the number of devices which connect by USB-C. To make it perfect I would even have happily swapped one USB-C socket for a USB-A.

To be clear, approximately one billion HDMI devices ship every year.
Kinda hard to call HDMI "legacy" when one billion brand new devices ship with it every year.

Number of TV's with DisplayPort: Zero, as far as I can tell.
Number of TV's with HDMI: All of them, as far as I can tell. And this situation is not going to change. TV's are not going to adopt DisplayPort.

 

[MrTSolar]

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-needs-to-give-us-the-80-max-charge-option-on-the-iphone.2365460/post-31653730

Due to events ^, all I have to say now is:

 

[coolbreeze2]

The hdmi and sd card port on these is totally unnecessary. WTF?! Everyone already bought connectors for these items over the last 5 years.

MagSafe was a mess. Yeah it was branded well but I didnt like it because my cables were always ruined and I had to spend a lot of money replacing it. Imo TB3/4 works great and haven’t had to replace it once.

Good grief… ??‍♂️??‍♂️??‍♂️ That was a step backwards and for very little gain. The size is perfect. Apple could’ve added more battery capacity.

Man Apple can’t satisfy folks. People complained that these ports were missing and Apple added them back. Now folks are complaining these ports aren’t needed. I guess Apple needs to allow people to choose which ports are wanted when ordering. Then folks will complain about the extra cost of being able to choose your own ports.

 

[wilberforce]

Man Apple can’t satisfy folks. People complained that these ports were missing and Apple added them back. Now folks are complaining these ports aren’t needed. I guess Apple needs to allow people to choose which ports are wanted when ordering. Then folks will complain about the extra cost of being able to choose your own ports.

Yes, then there will be endless threads with people asking which ports they should get, and why didn't Apple include port XYZ in the base model, it's just a cash grab.

 

[Alameda]

I think this MBP is the frankenmac with all these outdated ports. You can tell Apple lacks vision right now that Steve and Johnny are gone.

You don’t understand.
MBP with USBC doesn’t connect well to HDMI, not to mention the inconvenience of using dongles. No TV sold today has DisplayPort. More total displays sold today have HDMI than DisplayPort.

Just because somebody invented a display connector that’s newer, that doesn’t make it more useful. Sure, DisplayPort is the choice right now for 5K and 6K displays, but it’s not the market leader by a long shot.

Go into a Best Buy or a Fry’s or similar, and look for DisplayPort cables. Then go look for the HDMI cables… they will outnumber the DisplayPort cables at least 10 to 1.

I’m not interested in starting yet another DP-HDMI pissing contest. My point is that it’s absurd to call HDMI an “obsolete” interface. I hope I’ve educated you on this point. The MBP would be pretty lame without DP connectivity, but it’s also much better with the HDMI port.

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm trying to imagine what world these people live in who are complaining about 'outdated' and 'obsolete' ports. Do you really live in an idyllic myopic world where everything you ever need to plug into your computer connects by USB-C or Thunderbolt, or is it just that having dongles hanging out your computer doesn't bother you?

 

[throAU]

The hdmi and sd card port on these is totally unnecessary. WTF?! Everyone already bought connectors for these items over the last 5 years.

Even if you have dongles available...

HDMI port saves a dongle consuming a USB-C meaning you can use the USB port for something else.
Magsafe saves a dongle meaning you can use the USB for something else
SD card.. guess what?

If you don't need the ports... ok...

But typically at work I'm plugged into HDMI and two of my USB-Cs (one for time machine, one for DisplayPort) leaving only one free port. The SD card port is useful for using SD cards as transportable storage leaving me 1 free type C.

Which I occasionally use for ethernet.

And my usage isn't even that intensive (hence I can get away without a dock. just).

 

[throAU]

I am OK with the SD card port. Photographers will dig it. But HDMI...eh.

HDMI is everywhere.

Chances are if you want to plug into any display or projector from the past 10 years in an office environment there will be either a HDMI port or HDMI cable available to do it.

 

[PeterJP]

HDMI is everywhere.

Chances are if you want to plug into any display or projector from the past 10 years in an office environment there will be either a HDMI port or HDMI cable available to do it.

In our office, we bought Apple TVs for every display. Works wonders! Only a handful of Windows users complain they can't connect to AirPlay

On a more serious note - just sitting down anywhere and plugging in the HDMI is really practical. One plug, second screen. That, and the storage extension possibility with a minidrive in the SD card slot (or, of course, to download photos etc), make these new connectors a great addition. It's not like they've just added Centronics, is it?

 

[MajorFubar]

It's not like they've just added Centronics, is it?

Ironically enough I'm at work sitting six feet from a reasonably-modern colour duplex A3 printer which still has one of those sockets, as well as LAN connection and USB.
I've found that office-grade computers and peripherals often keep legacy connectors for much longer because their manufacturers know people are likely to still rock up with something out the Ark which needs to be connected up and work. Upto a month ago I was using a HP Windows 10 business-laptop at work which still had a D-connector for connecting to monitors (as well as HDMI), for the same reason.

 

[throAU]

I've found that office-grade computers and peripherals often keep legacy connectors for much longer because their manufacturers know people are likely to still rock up with something out the Ark which needs to be connected up and work.

Its also a case of office/enterprise gear having a lot of margin on support agreements, etc. and the ports themselves costing pennies to implement, whilst ensuring no one is left out in the cold.

There are also places that may need to print that run on extreme legacy equipment. Not so long ago a friend was dealing with Windows 98 because it had been set up decades ago to control some industrial robot using software written for DOS via an RS232 serial port. At that point there had been no pressing need to upgrade it. I suspect it may still be running via FreeDOS or whatever.

That's the sort of workplace some equipment exists in.

 

[MajorFubar]

Agreed. The fact is, there are a whole plethora of very valid reasons why people might need what some consider to be legacy ports, particularly on pro-grade machines.

 

[Alameda]

I'm sure that power delivery functionality does indeed cost a lot more, but bear in mind that this is optional in the spec.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C

A device with a Type-C connector does not necessarily implement USB, USB Power Delivery, or any Alternate Mode: the Type-C connector is common to several technologies while mandating only a few of them.[5]

...but if we are comparing the features you find on a USB-A port, then it obviously needs to support at least USB 2.0 and outputing 500mW power. That may still be more expensive to implement.

Maybe even the physical connector is more expensive because it has a lot more pins and finer engineering tolerances.

This obviuosly doesn't help adoption at the low end of the market with cheap devices costing < $50 where a $1-2 increase is very significant. Much like electric cars, there needs to be price-parity before widespread adoption is possible.

USB was never designed to be a battery charger interface. Considering that… USB has done a phenomenal job. But with battery capacity growing and now laptop USB charging, the USBC was definitely needed. Its power delivery has a proper discovery mechanism that works at many voltage levels up to 100 Watts. It’s impressive!

I bought a new kitchen scale for espresso making, and when its battery died, I took it into my home office and my laptop’s USBC charger recharged it. THAT’S cool! Yes! I can charge my kitchen scale with my laptop charger. (Nintendo Switch is a notorious exception).

USBC’s weak link, I think, isn’t its higher cost (which is justified). The weak link is the cable system. For a laptop charger, you want a 6 foot cable that can carry 100 Watts of power. The data cables can be no-connects; I don’t want to pay for 40 Gbps data signals in that cable.

But for my hard disk array, I want a 2 foot cable that supports maximum speed and just the 0.5A power, or maybe 5A. Yet, the two very different cables look almost identical.

Now you go to Amazon to buy such things, and it’s a complete mess. For the record: Amazon, you totally suck. All you get on Amazon are over-inflated claims and there’s no way to know a cable’s actual capabilities or whether it’s been lab-tested to those capabilities. People at least need to be aware of these differences.

 

[wilberforce]

Now you go to Amazon to buy such things, and it’s a complete mess. For the record: Amazon, you totally suck. All you get on Amazon are over-inflated claims and there’s no way to know a cable’s actual capabilities or whether it’s been lab-tested to those capabilities. People at least need to be aware of these differences.

I agree, after several attempts I have given up on Amazon for USB-C cables; there is no assurance that you will actually get what is promised, and most of the reviews are either fake or ranting or ignorant.
I now just pay Apple's higher prices for cables; at least I know what I am getting.

 

[jasoncarle]

It is painfully obvious on this forum who uses their macs for wok, and who uses them to look pretty in the coffee shop while they edit their instagram pictures...

 

[jasoncarle]

I agree, after several attempts I have given up on Amazon for USB-C cables; there is no assurance that you will actually get what is promised, and most of the reviews are either fake or ranting or ignorant.
I now just pay Apple's higher prices for cables; at least I know what I am getting.

There are places other than Amazon and the Apple store to get cables that are of high quality.

 

[gleepskip]

Universal ports are the future. I have two docking stations I use in various scenarios when I'm working and not merely flexing my Mac at Starbucks. One cable plugs in power, storage, display, and network. The only reason I personally would carry around a slew of adapters in my bag is so I could elicit sympathy for how arduous and inconvenient my life is. Please weep.

Using USB-C ports alone mean everyone is able to use the same equipment. If I need a special port, it's my problem, not yours. I get to be a special snowflake without holding back the rest of civilization.