MP 7,1 Mac Pro 8.1 - WHAT IF...

[innerproduct]

For me (and it seems a few others here) the new macpro will finally reveal apples approach to solving the issue that has been present on macs since the advent of gpgpu in about the mid 2000s. They failed to get us great gpu power since they dropped nvidia. Opencl failed. Amd under delivered and it is just now that we finally have actual working gpu renders on amd and ASi. But we still have lousy hardware for this purpose. Either priced ridiculous (mp2019)or just no grunt(m1ultra)
I have been using macs as my preferred platform since the dawn of the stoneage but also been using pc for 3d since late 1990s. I dream of ditching PC and the hope is that the macpro finally makes that viable. To me, this is almost like the last chance. If they don’t solve it now, I might have to accept that and just drop that dream. It would be ok and as a pro I have no problem with it. It is mostly on a personal level and feels like it should be feasible right now
If apple just choose to.

 

[mattspace]

Just stating the obvious: I'm sure Apple would happily trade 5 bitching geezers for 100 happy campers.

What I find problematic about this is when they make a non-upgradable machine, they're not gaining any customers who would have refused to buy an upgradable one and just not upgraded it. What they have is 100 customers, rather than 105.

It's not going to be cheaper if it loses upgrade capabilities. There's no vast untapped market for compact workstations, for whom the Studio isn't sufficient. The only reason to limit upgrades, is to drive the upfront & repurchase cycle.

 

[AndreeOnline]

It's not going to be cheaper if it loses upgrade capabilities.

I think we view this differently.

My thinking when I say that the user base will shift is split between losing some top-end where some needs can't be met, and opening the bottom end by making the Mac Pro more accessible by lowering its price.

The current Mac Studio Ultra comes in at $4999 in its lowest spec with max GPU cores, I believe. It is my hope that dressing the AS Ultra in a 7.1 case will add some to the price, but I don't think Apple will add "image pricing", as in "let's add bit more just for the 'Mac Pro' name".
IF Apple cuts some losses on one side, they should be welcoming on the other side of the spectrum.

And unlike you then, I think there are many users who look at the Mac Studio Ultra as a computer with enough power, but too little convenience, or too much mess. I think there are users who feel a $5k Studio Ultra is expensive, but a $6.5k Mac Pro is "just right", even if the power envelope is the same.

In all PCs vs Mac discussions, I've always felt strongly that Macs are more than the sum of their parts. What this really means is just that the experience as a whole matter. The 7.1 Mac Pro is a pretty nice experience.

 

[Boil]

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to throwing fits. I might be paraphrasing, but I think that's 1:1 verbatim from Obi-One.

Actually, that would be Master Yoda...

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

;^p

 

[StuAff]

From one of the threads in News…seemed apt.

It's a straw man that doesn't even exist yet. Let's all panic!

"Based on nothing other than some past mistakes, and because I have no real information, let's consider the worst thing that could happen."
"Did you hear that? Apple might do the worst possible thing."
"They're almost certainly going to do the worst possible thing. They did it before!"
"I can't believe it. Apple did the worst possible thing AGAIN?"
"I know, right? They're doomed.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[mattspace]

The current Mac Studio Ultra comes in at $4999 in its lowest spec with max GPU cores, I believe. It is my hope that dressing the AS Ultra in a 7.1 case will add some to the price, but I don't think Apple will add "image pricing", as in "let's add bit more just for the 'Mac Pro' name".

Apple has not used Apple Silicon to reduce prices. I don't see that changing.

• The cheapest AS Mac Pro will cost significantly more than the highest spec processor / Ram Mac Studio. Just as it does today with Intel machines.
• They are not going to overlap the performance. If you want slots, that's going to be bundled with bigger processors than any studio offers, so it's a "balanced" system - balanced being a meaningless word that Apple loves.
• If the Intel Mac Pro was too expensive for the market it targets, they'd have put it in a less expensive case (which is probably the most, or second most expensive part of the machine). It's built to a pricepoint, not priced to a build cost.

 

[Boil]

Apple has not used Apple Silicon to reduce prices. I don't see that changing.

• The cheapest AS Mac Pro will cost significantly more than the highest spec processor / Ram Mac Studio. Just as it does today with Intel machines.
• They are not going to overlap the performance. If you want slots, that's going to be bundled with bigger processors than any studio offers, so it's a "balanced" system - balanced being a meaningless word that Apple loves.
• If the Intel Mac Pro was too expensive for the market it targets, they'd have put it in a less expensive case (which is probably the most, or second most expensive part of the machine). It's built to a pricepoint, not priced to a build cost.

ASi Mac Pro will have the same two configurations as the Mn Ultra Mac Studio...

Binned M2 Ultra with 96GB of RAM & full-die M2 Ultra with 192GB of RAM...

Oh yeah, it will also have PCIe slots, and start at $5999...

 

[AndreeOnline]

Actually, that would be Master Yoda...

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

;^p

Can't believe my own eyes, reading my own text. 😳😂

 

[Mac3Duser]

oh yet it's simple
some users think that the AS Mac Pro will be able to do all the tasks very well for a good price
other users are concerned that the lack of a GPU will slow renders
personally, I look forward to seeing what Apple will do. Apple could choose several solutions (like only AS, maintain Intel, AS + AMD, AS + AS GPU, etc)

in the end, some will be disappointed (as always)

 

[AndreeOnline]

Apple has not used Apple Silicon to reduce prices. I don't see that changing.

Neither do I, per se.

Apple has no prices to reduce since this will be the first AS Mac Pro. I don't mean to imply they will charge less for the AS parts in the Mac Pro, compared to the Studio.

But I mean that charging $5k for Ultra parts in a closed case can be expensive, while the same parts and price (for the parts themselves) in an expandable case can be reasonable.

I expect the Mac Pro to be more expensive than the Studio in absolute terms.

 

[enc0re]

From Apple’s perspective, the cylinder form factor failed because they “designed themselves into a thermal corner”. If all that’s in a new Mac Pro is an M2 Ultra, that no longer applies. An Ultra can breathe without problem in the Studio.

I continue to expect that Mac Pro will feature internal expansion that uses significant additional heat and power. Maybe that’s traditional GPUs. Or maybe Apple will try to make their own expansions cards populated with additional Ultra chips. Or even specialized chips with additional CPU, GPU, or neural cores depending on what you need.

 

[mattspace]

Apple has no prices to reduce since this will be the first AS Mac Pro. I don't mean to imply they will charge less for the AS parts in the Mac Pro, compared to the Studio.

The Mac Pro is a Mac Pro, not a Xeon Pro. It will cost the same as the Xeon machine price levels. Apple will rationale it as "the processor is irrelevant, macOS is the only feature that matters".

 

[AndreeOnline]

The Mac Pro is a Mac Pro, not a Xeon Pro.

This part, I agree with. But I don't believe in 'Mac Pro pricing'.

I don't think Apple wants to sell expensive stuff, as in I don't think they see prices as a feature. They see margin as a feature for sure, but it's not the same thing.

I know there might be many who don't share this view, and that is also partly the reason why many PC-users feel Macs are expensive.

It will be interesting to see where it ends up. There are a couple of things that don't quite match up currently.

Apple has been beta-testing the new Mac Pro for a while. I guess they have been using the normal Mac Pro case as a disguise. This might be the reason why rumors still maintain they will ship it in this case. For a long time, the rumor was that it would ship in a case only half as big. Was there no meat to that "information"?

The suggestion of the present case and maaaaybe GPU compatibility made kind of sense for the hopeful, but the normal case and no MPX compatibility and just lots of PCI slots seem sketchy.

 

[darkus]

From Apple’s perspective, the cylinder form factor failed because they “designed themselves into a thermal corner”. If all that’s in a new Mac Pro is an M2 Ultra, that no longer applies. An Ultra can breathe without problem in the Studio.

I continue to expect that Mac Pro will feature internal expansion that uses significant additional heat and power. Maybe that’s traditional GPUs. Or maybe Apple will try to make their own expansions cards populated with additional Ultra chips. Or even specialized chips with additional CPU, GPU, or neural cores depending on what you need.

Bingo.

The trash can “mistake” was a design/engineering one related to heat.

It was never a marketing mistake. And that marketplace based data is what will decide what the Mac Pro will be.

Anyone who thinks billion+ dollar companies make these kinds of decisions based on what some angry people on forums are saying about expandability, etc.. hasn’t left the basement yet 😂

What the Mac Pro ends up being will be a data driven decision.

Just look at Apple financial statements. Revenues down along multiple product lines but still hitting records, even in the face of supply issues. Multiple large companies now engaging in layoffs due to economic forecasts. And in that environment you think Apple will take any kind of gamble and make a product that won’t sell to what the marketplace actually is?

 

[Mac3Duser]

no, and the first rendering tests in Blender show that the M2 max and therefore possibly the M2 ultra will be able to compete with the nvidias.
If Apple puts money into Blender and Metal, it's to make it work.
Same thing with neural engine and Open AI.
And the same with FCP
In my opinion, it will be very good.
If the pros have to change machines every two years, because it's impossible to upgrade, the price must be very competitive.

And for the prices of PCs, if you want something really good, it's expensive too. Calculate the price of a workstation with an RTX A6000. With 384 gb of ram. Etc

 

[mattspace]

It was never a marketing mistake. And that marketplace based data is what will decide what the Mac Pro will be.

Their competitors marketing material, material produced during a multi-industry lampooning of the 2013 Mac Pro, & wholesale replacement of Mac Pros by standard Windows slotboxes in the creative fields, was literally pointing out the lack of internal expansion and slots. That was the HP Z series brochures at the time.

 

[innerproduct]

no, and the first rendering tests in Blender show that the M2 max and therefore possibly the M2 ultra will be able to compete with the nvidias.
If Apple puts money into Blender and Metal, it's to make it work.
Same thing with neural engine and Open AI.
And the same with FCP
In my opinion, it will be very good.
If the pros have to change machines every two years, because it's impossible to upgrade, the price must be very competitive.

And for the prices of PCs, if you want something really good, it's expensive too. Calculate the price of a workstation with an RTX A6000. With 384 gb of ram. Etc

In all my years using PC personally and at differnent workplaces "we" have bought quadros /pro cards very few times. Quadros for when we needed frame and stereo sync between nodes in multi projector setups (this was for realtime visualisation) but for all workstations it was always consumer cards. In more recent times we have invested in RTX a5000s since those where just a 40-50% more expensive than RTX 3090 and also had a very nice 2 slot blower design to make it easier to put 8 cards side by side in a rendering node and the GF 3090 blower cards had went out of stock.
In both these cases it was at companies with more or less unlimited funds. But, why pay more for nothing of value?
There has always been an elephant in the room when apple talks about "pro" stuff. Their pro gpus newer had more features or were more stable. Pro in name and price only. Maybe the Radeon Vega 2 and duos could be considered "pro" since they had larger frame buffers than the consumer versions.

Apple has great tools for video pros, no doubt. Priced high BUT WORTH IT since the hw solves real workflow issues.

Now we just need more workflows unlocked and I am sure Apple can do it if they want. All infrastructure is there. The apps are there, frameworks in place etc.

 

[darkus]

Their competitors marketing material, material produced during a multi-industry lampooning of the 2013 Mac Pro, & wholesale replacement of Mac Pros by standard Windows slotboxes in the creative fields, was literally pointing out the lack of internal expansion and slots. That was the HP Z series brochures at the time.

And Samsung endlessly made fun of apples removal of the headphone jack on the iPhone.

Many would say removing that jack was the correct move, both from a technical and marketing POV.

When competitors make fun of or criticize you it can be seen as a sign that you are doing something right. Regardless, that Mac Pro is in the past. This thread has made me even more eagerly waiting to see what Mac Pro 8 brings us

 

[AndreeOnline]

So, is that how the game is played?

You can blurt out any **** you want, because you know it will be deleted by moderation in the end anyway?

Few things annoys me more than walking the line, taking all kinds of **** 'on the other cheek', breaking down the arguments step by step, until the fool finally steps out of the shadows, only to have the whole process—which can be pretty tiring to be sure—deleted.

I'm very interested in having all my posts reinstated, since I stand behind every word I write. I can only assume, the same holds true for any other poster's posts that were deleted.

Were they flagged? Perhaps only remove posts that break forum rules?

 

[prefuse07]

Why was he suspended?

 

[AdamBuker]

I'm still willing to be surprised as I'm not putting too much stock in Gurman's musings at the moment.

One thought occurred to me just now. The Apple Studio Display uses an A13 chip to drive some of it's features, but obviously there is a lot more on the chip than the display even needs. Instead of making a custom chip, there might be some firmware in conjunction with some logic on the chip that allows for certain things to be enabled/disabled.

This makes me wonder if the 8.1 Mac Pro will have multiple SOC sockets as a means of user expandable graphics/cpu/ram. Assuming this whole thing is M2 Ultra based, then we could see at least a 1x and 2x configuration if not also a 3x and 4x version.

So a max config would have 384 GB ram, 48 total processor cores (32p and 16e cores), 152 GPU cores. The first SOC would be the main controller for the whole system. Subsequent SOCs would be used for additional CPU/GPU/media engines/NE cores. The question that I don't know is how much bandwidth is available to support PCIe slots. Could an additional PCIe controller be installed to route I/O if it's needed? Because the way I see it, if this is possible, you would only need one motherboard design for the 8.1 across all price points and configurations. Apple could still tout the advantages of its SOC architecture whilst providing some semblance of internal expandability. It still wouldn't be enough for some use cases, but would probably hit enough use cases that I could see Apple going this route.

 

[maikerukun]

We can keep doing this, but in an effort to change gears and leave the meme-ing and LOL-ing behind.

All power users: describe your current setup, what you are doing with it, and how an Apple Silicon Mac Pro would be a problem.

A few of us with 'average pro needs' are swaying in the wind thinking "it might just work anyway". If you are a Mac Pro enthusiast, DO bring your use cases for dual GPUs. I'd love to hear both what you are doing and what software you are using.

This is NOT a challenge: "I bet they can't come up with that, hehe", but an honest question to get at the real problem, which I would say is restricted productivity.

Also, it would just be really cool to hear what everyone is doing!

in the past 4 months, just finished working on a project for Rolex. Currently on motion graphics and VFX for a Japanese milk brand. Did a brand campaign for Oreo. Just finished VFX Supervising a feature film called Goon Squad for BET and doing 120 shots for Mel Gibson's new movie "Hot Seat". Currently as of today (I'm also an actor) just finished playing "Buddy" in an upcoming feature film called "Get the Girl" so that was taking some time away from my post production work but not all of it as I am also Visual Effects Supervising a mormon feature film that I don't want to discuss because it just gets weird and it's basically the oddest thing I've ever worked on lol. Currently in the running for a campaign for Google Home as well "which will be almost all motion graphics".

So I own a company called Glowstick Bay Studios. Which you can see a bit more of at http://glowstickbaystudios.com

You can also go to http://shopglowstickbay.com if you'd like to buy a hoodie or hat or something and support the brand

And if you'd like to put a face to me, you can see me on instagram at http://instagram.com/callawayjones

So now you know something about me and what I do

 

[maikerukun]

Why was he suspended?

Who was suspended?

 

[maikerukun]

Just stating the obvious: I'm sure Apple would happily trade 5 bitching geezers for 100 happy campers.

Might want to take a look at my instagram again lol.

 

[maikerukun]

oh yet it's simple
some users think that the AS Mac Pro will be able to do all the tasks very well for a good price
other users are concerned that the lack of a GPU will slow renders
personally, I look forward to seeing what Apple will do. Apple could choose several solutions (like only AS, maintain Intel, AS + AMD, AS + AS GPU, etc)

in the end, some will be disappointed (as always)

Very true. And I look forward to seeing what they'll do, I think we all do...I think we were already to learn what they'll do literally over a year ago LOL. We just want an inkling from them of what's going on lolol.