MP 7,1 Mac Pro, Be honest what Display are you using ? If you can’t afford the XDR Display.

[GamerZer0]

Do you have the settings turned right down.....the picture quality looks awful..washed out...
Macrumors page should be bright white.

Its the iPhone camera... Picture looks PERFECT.

Can't capture a "faithful" photo of this screen

Nothing beats the colors and black level of OLED

This is for normal use... not professional.

 

[MarkC426]

Bloomin iPhone....

 

[Pressure]

Watch out for image burn-in with that menu bar visible all the time.
[automerge]1577791108[/automerge]

yes, but 8bit color only (MacOS limitations), if you need 10bit you need Windows 10

do you use any third party program to get this resolution? any hack?

I already had an up3218k, I ended up returning it because the macOS gave no option of 8k (natively saw the monitor as two 4k screens)

I messaged this user (@_Kiki_) directly and have gotten no answer. He must be talking about Windows 10 and not MacOS as far as we know.

 

[GamerZer0]

Watch out for image burn-in with that menu bar visible all the time.

I do "Pixel Refresher" from time to time... also "Screen Shift" is ON and "Logo Luminance Adjustment" is ON.

I had the LG C8 before this for a year and no burn-in or issues

Screen Shift, as the name implies, shifts the screen ever so slightly. Its most visible when the top pixels are cut off, but its very minimal.

For best results... Set the HDMI port to PC in TV port settings.

 

[bxs]

I do "Pixel Refresher" from time to time... also "Screen Shift" is ON and "Logo Luminance Adjustment" is ON.

I had the LG C8 before this for a year and no burn-in or issues

Screen Shift, as the name implies, shifts the screen ever so slightly. Its most visible when the top pixels are cut off, but its very minimal.

For best results... Set the HDMI port to PC in TV port settings.

View attachment 885821

Yes, for my 65" LG OLED TV I use PC for the used HDMI port in settings. I'm mightily impressed with the image quality on the TV, and can read text clearly at 15-feet away from the screen.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Like I said, 8k TVs used as monitors will become a way better way to spend your money. I suspect black leves on the XDR are poop (relative to OLED).

Many of us have 2 30" monitors on their desk. A 65" 8k OLED tv will take the same desktop foot print as those 2 30" monitors, but offer the resolution of 4 4k displays, and only need one power/data cord to boot, tidying things up.

IMO the 6k XDR is dead tech walking.

 

[Pressure]

Like I said, 8k TVs used as monitors will become a way better way to spend your money. I suspect black leves on the XDR are poop (relative to OLED).

Many of us have 2 30" monitors on their desk. A 65" 8k OLED tv will take the same desktop foot print as those 2 30" monitors, but offer the resolution of 4 4k displays, and only need one power/data cord to boot, tidying things up.

IMO the 6k XDR is dead tech walking.

They are not intended for the same market segment.

If you just want resolution the Dell UP3218K can fill that role.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

They are not intended for the same market segment.

If you just want resolution the Dell UP3218K can fill that role.

This is argument by false dilema/dichotomy. The market isn't either A or notA. The market is the market. Some people buy the monitor purely for resolution. Some for giggles. Some for actual reference work. Others because it's the top of the line. Others because it has a fruity logo on it. There are a spectrum of markets that will get the XDR.

And in that spectrum there is vast overlap where the 8k display will be better.

And for what it's worth, 8k on a 30" display is a waste. The sweet spot to maintain "retina" at the display distance (say 25-35" away) is going to be a 55-65" display.

Furthermore, I want OLED. Nothing rivals its black levels and thats important too. The reference is a reference with stinky black levels because thats what everyone in the world has, stinky black levels. OLED doesnt suffer that. So my hope is an affordable 8k OLED around 60" give or take 5" at a non insane price. I'd much rather pay $7k for a 65" 8K OLED TV with real black levels than the over priced XDR that wont come close. As always, YMMV.

 

[Synchro3]

I you want to use the LG OLED as a monitor change to ,game mode' in the LG OLED settings.

 

[kerplunknet]

Because everyone reading this thread has an interest in high quality displays, please remember that calibration is crucial. At a minimum, buy a colorimeter like the X-Rite i1Display Pro.

 

[bxs]

No matter what is being said here in -ive terms..... You really do have to see this 65" LG OLED TV display -- to me it's amazing and gorgeous looking.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Because everyone reading this thread has an interest in high quality displays, please remember that calibration is crucial. At a minimum, buy a colorimeter like the X-Rite i1Display Pro.

I disagree. That’s your interpretation. Many people want the Xdr not because it’s calibrated, but for its resolution, or that it has a fruit logo on it, or they just like its matching/aesthetic. There are markets beyond calibration intensive ones that have an interest.

 

[goMac]

Like I said, 8k TVs used as monitors will become a way better way to spend your money. I suspect black leves on the XDR are poop (relative to OLED).

Many of us have 2 30" monitors on their desk. A 65" 8k OLED tv will take the same desktop foot print as those 2 30" monitors, but offer the resolution of 4 4k displays, and only need one power/data cord to boot, tidying things up.

IMO the 6k XDR is dead tech walking.

OLED has issues. I would never use one as a computer display.

Before I get into why... The XDR has a lot of local dimming zones, so black levels are very good. Not quite as good as OLED, but probably imperceptible.

But OLED has two problems. The first is that brightness levels on OLED are pretty poor. If you're designing a display to proof the edges of HDR content, that's a dealbreaker right there.

The second issue is that OLED burn in is real. On a TV situation, it will take quite a while. But on a computer where you might have a menu bar/apple menu/dock all in the same place, you're going to have issues within 3-6 months. That's why you only see OLED done in high end displays meant specifically for games, where the content is usually full screen.

OLEDs can mitigate burn in, but the way they do that is by degrading every pixel on the panel to be just as bad as the burnt in pixels. They don't reverse burn in, they just apply it evenly.

The serviceable lifespan of an OLED display in a computer environment is probably 6-12 months before the image quality will start to decay. Service lifespan of an XDR display is years to decades. There is no real reason image quality should decline over time on an XDR.

Any time I've seen OLEDs used in computer situations, it's been a disaster, and they're swapped out for LEDs pretty quick.

Ultimately MicroLED will combine the reliability of LED with the black levels of OLED. Apple is rumored to be working deeply on MicroLED, and they've waved around semi-MicroLED branding on the XDR.

 

[Ph.D.]

500 LEDs aren't nearly enough to avoid blooming around white-on-black text, etc. And if only one of the 500+ LEDs in the XDR display dies, it's going to be extrordinarily annoying and an insanely expensive repair. Plus I noted that AppleCare for it is unusually expensive.

I have an OLED TV and it's stunning. I too wish OLED would become a thing for monitors. Alas, that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon. But after OLED, I hate the idea of buying any more LCD monitors.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

OLED has issues. I would never use one as a computer display.

Before I get into why... The XDR has a lot of local dimming zones, so black levels are very good. Not quite as good as OLED, but probably imperceptible.

But OLED has two problems. The first is that brightness levels on OLED are pretty poor. If you're designing a display to proof the edges of HDR content, that's a dealbreaker right there.

The second issue is that OLED burn in is real. On a TV situation, it will take quite a while. But on a computer where you might have a menu bar/apple menu/dock all in the same place, you're going to have issues within 3-6 months. That's why you only see OLED done in high end displays meant specifically for games, where the content is usually full screen.

OLEDs can mitigate burn in, but the way they do that is by degrading every pixel on the panel to be just as bad as the burnt in pixels. They don't reverse burn in, they just apply it evenly.

The serviceable lifespan of an OLED display in a computer environment is probably 6-12 months before the image quality will start to decay. Service lifespan of an XDR display is years to decades. There is no real reason image quality should decline over time on an XDR.

Any time I've seen OLEDs used in computer situations, it's been a disaster, and they're swapped out for LEDs pretty quick.

Ultimately MicroLED will combine the reliability of LED with the black levels of OLED. Apple is rumored to be working deeply on MicroLED, and they've waved around semi-MicroLED branding on the XDR.

We disagree. "a lot of zones" aint per pixel. It just will NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS be the same as "off per pixel". All the hand waving in the universe wont change that. No Quantum Dot (quantom not), microLED, blah blah blah, is going to change it. Until there is something else that does per pixel shutoff, it's all marketing noise.

Burn in is real on LCD too. My 30" Apple displays have burn in. That's life.

My apple cinema 30" displays decayed over years too. You pump up the brightness to compensate. I started watching them at 50%. Now they are near 100%. The colors are not what they used to be either. Nothing is forever. And no one plans to make a family heirloom of some transient tech meaningful for a certain quantum of time during the 'now' portion of space/time continuum. Other fields can build obelisks and monoliths to withstand the ages. Not the purview of consumer electronics.

Anytime I've seen OLEDs in computer locations, and they have been properly calibarted/setup, it's like going from a spinner drive to an SSD. There is no going back.

Back in black baby, there is no substitute. As always, YMMV.

 

[GamerZer0]

Connecting a PC or a Mac to a TV to see "how it looks" was an occasional test I do whenever I get a new TV. I currently own a 75" Samsung 8K TV and did test the Mac Pro with it. As expected its limited to 4K 60Hz and it looked nice. The LG OLED looks better and more comfortable to use.

Energy Saving settings I use is "Medium" in the morning (even with have a large window behind my chair) and this setting is more than enough. At night the setting is set to "Maximum" as all lights are off except for one LED strip attached to the rear of the TV. This makes for a very relaxing setup for night use.

Now... the discussion of what's better comes down to individual needs. Some people might laugh at the idea of a 55" sized display for desk use. I too thought it would be ridiculous when I set it up to test the idea. But after use.. I can't go back to normal monitors. Its just easy on my eyes in this setup in 2560x1440. Eyes just gets used to it quickly and I faced no strains or fatigue. And now we have Dark Mode which makes things even better.

Would I get an XDR Display? No... I don't need the features it offers. My previous setup was a 5K iMac and before that it was the 2013 Mac Pro connected to a 5K Dell monitor.

So far I faced no burn in issues.

And I was toying with the idea of doing a three OLED setup ?
Made a messy image to see how it looks ?

 

[Onelifenofear]

Me too. I’m waiting for 8k tvs. Right now you can use an 8k Samsung for about 3500. These will only get cheaper. I want an 8k oled when they come out and don’t cost $30k...

TVs don't make good monitors for the most part.

 

[goMac]

We disagree. "a lot of zones" aint per pixel. It just will NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS be the same as "off per pixel". All the hand waving in the universe wont change that. No Quantum Dot (quantom not), microLED, blah blah blah, is going to change it. Until there is something else that does per pixel shutoff, it's all marketing noise.

Sure. I have that exact same OLED. I know what you mean. It's still not the same thing. But unless you are really picky about per pixel black levels, it's probably not a huge deal. I have one of those OLEDs, I've spend time with an XDR. There is some blooming on an XDR but it's reeeealy tough to notice, and unless you're working a lot on black backgrounds, you probably won't.

If you're working on film, I could maybe see the issue. But you're going to lose the improved dynamic range.

Burn in is real on LCD too. My 30" Apple displays have burn in. That's life.

I... what... that's not at all the same thing.

First. That's an LCD (not an LED.) LCDs do get dimmer over time. LEDs functionally don't. Which is why I said LED. The XDR isn't probably going to dim over time like your 30" Cinema Display because it's a different display tech. It's more likely that at the end of it's life the LED is just going to burn out, which would take... I dunno, my LED display is almost 10 years old and it's still doing just fine.

OLEDs lose brightness per pixel per channel as that pixel is used. It's unavoidable, and the process will start as soon as you turn on the display. Burn in isn't something that happens if you misuse the display. It's constantly happening all the time to every pixel.

This means unless you are making sure to burn each color channel on each pixel evenly, your color uniformity is very quickly going to go out the window. For movies or tv shows, the panel is going to tend to cycle all the pixels through all the different colors, so any issue is going to take a lot longer to show because it will burn all the colors for each pixel on average the same amount. For computer content? Very hard to equalize that burn in because you have things like the menu bar, window backgrounds, the dock, etc.

That's why professionals don't use OLED. The color uniformity very quickly becomes bad. Brightness can become very uneven or degraded because you're literally burning the life/brightness of each pixel every time you use one. And after enough time the uneven use of pixels will cause burn in.

And unlike what you see on other panels, OLED burn in can't really be combated. You can't play different content to undo. You can't turn the panel off and let it rest to undo it. All you can do is try to burn down the other pixels as evenly to match.

Apple and Dell and HP and everyone aren't missing anything here. It's not like MacRumors has tapped into the OLED display secret no one has figured out. They generally aren't using OLED because it's horrible for computer displays. Even LG won't use OLED in their own computer displays.

MicroLED is where you can get OLED quality and the per pixel blacks but without the downsides. Rumor is that Apple is going to add MicroLED to the MacBook Pro later this year. But in the meantime, they totally picked the right display technology for the XDR.

 

[aaronhead14]

Ok I can barely afford a 12 Core Mac Pro, 1TB, no afterburner Card etc. roughly $12k maybe I’ll add RAM later and waiting on the W5700XT 16GB Graphics option. It’s a school/learning opportunity and tax write off (My CPA says done deal)

But Theres no way to tax write off a $10,000 Display just no way around it my CPA says.

So I’m asking everyone here, What Display or Displays will you guys and girls be Using ?

I‘ll be using a LG C9 4K 55” OLED and also a Asus 27” PG27AQ 4K 144hz monitor

ASUS ROG Swift PG27UQ 27” 4K UHD 144Hz DP HDMI G-SYNC HDR Aura Sync Gaming Monitor with Eye Care

See the future of gaming with the ROG Swift PG27UQ 4K UHD 144Hz HDR aura Sync gaming monitor. It features NVIDIA G-SYNC HDR for life like contrast and color with peak brightness up to 1000 nits. A built-in ambient light sensor automatically adjusts panel brightness. Synchronize your lighting effe...

www.amazon.com

Just mainly because I plan to trade or sell the W5700XT for a RTX 3080 when they come out.

Well, if you don’t actually need an HDR screen then there’s no justification for a write off. But if you deliver films in HDR and your job actually requires displays that are capable of properly monitoring your content, then of course you can write it off on your taxes.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Sure. I have that exact same OLED. I know what you mean. It's still not the same thing. But unless you are really picky about per pixel black levels, it's probably not a huge deal. I have one of those OLEDs, I've spend time with an XDR. There is some blooming on an XDR but it's reeeealy tough to notice, and unless you're working a lot on black backgrounds, you probably won't.

If you're working on film, I could maybe see the issue. But you're going to lose the improved dynamic range.



I... what... that's not at all the same thing.

First. That's an LCD (not an LED.) LCDs do get dimmer over time. LEDs functionally don't. Which is why I said LED. The XDR isn't probably going to dim over time like your 30" Cinema Display because it's a different display tech. It's more likely that at the end of it's life the LED is just going to burn out, which would take... I dunno, my LED display is almost 10 years old and it's still doing just fine.

OLEDs lose brightness per pixel per channel as that pixel is used. It's unavoidable, and the process will start as soon as you turn on the display. Burn in isn't something that happens if you misuse the display. It's constantly happening all the time to every pixel.

This means unless you are making sure to burn each color channel on each pixel evenly, your color uniformity is very quickly going to go out the window. For movies or tv shows, the panel is going to tend to cycle all the pixels through all the different colors, so any issue is going to take a lot longer to show because it will burn all the colors for each pixel on average the same amount. For computer content? Very hard to equalize that burn in because you have things like the menu bar, window backgrounds, the dock, etc.

That's why professionals don't use OLED. The color uniformity very quickly becomes bad. Brightness can become very uneven or degraded because you're literally burning the life/brightness of each pixel every time you use one. And after enough time the uneven use of pixels will cause burn in.

And unlike what you see on other panels, OLED burn in can't really be combated. You can't play different content to undo. You can't turn the panel off and let it rest to undo it. All you can do is try to burn down the other pixels as evenly to match.

Apple and Dell and HP and everyone aren't missing anything here. It's not like MacRumors has tapped into the OLED display secret no one has figured out. They generally aren't using OLED because it's horrible for computer displays. Even LG won't use OLED in their own computer displays.

MicroLED is where you can get OLED quality and the per pixel blacks but without the downsides. Rumor is that Apple is going to add MicroLED to the MacBook Pro later this year. But in the meantime, they totally picked the right display technology for the XDR.

Youre wrong, MicroLED do NOT have per pixel shutoff.

LEDs also have burn in and also lose color (BTW running on and off dark mode can really help, particularly with the menubar). Maybe at slower rates, but they do. Your points are moot because it's just a question of how many years, and the long term is irrelevant to most in this market.

Right now I can get a 55" OLED for $999. I can get a new one every year for 6 years at that price. Your points dont stand unless you want some 10yr old heirloom. You say no one uses OLED, but a few people in this very thread show they are, and note they like it. Black matters. For film. For photography, and these days for a lot of dark mode UI. That it doesnt work for you or for other segmants is irrelvant. The question is will it work for some substantial portion of the market. Maybe, maybe not. But I know I'd rather buy several OLEDs and throw them out every year (which wont happen, I have a 3ry old, 1yr old and brand new OLED and the picture quality is still great on all of them) and enjoy that delicious picture than use the XDR. Obviously your mileage may vary.

 

[goMac]

Youre wrong, MicroLED do NOT have per pixel shutoff.

Yes. They do. Each pixel has it's own LED that can be shut off. That's the entire basic point of the tech.

This is literally the first sentence on Wikipedia about MicroLED:
"microLED, also known as micro-LED, mLED or µLED, is an emerging flat-panel display technology. microLED displays consist of arrays of microscopic LEDs forming the individual pixel elements."

LEDs also have burn in and also lose color (BTW running on and off dark mode can really help, particularly with the menubar). Maybe at slower rates, but they do. Your points are moot because it's just a question of how many years, and the long term is irrelevant to most in this market.

There's another point missed here:
Because each pixel in an OLED degrades differently and develops it's own color weight, a OLED display cannot be color calibrated.

You can go through the motions. You can generate a profile. But because each pixel is different you can't actually do a professional calibration.

Kind of a deal breaker as a display tech for a pro market. Not as much a problem for an LED display.

Right now I can get a 55" OLED for $999. I can get a new one every year for 6 years at that price. Your points dont stand unless you want some 10yr old heirloom. You say no one uses OLED, but a few people in this very thread show they are, and note they like it. Black matters. For film. For photography, and these days for a lot of dark mode UI. That it doesnt work for you or for other segmants is irrelvant. The question is will it work for some substantial portion of the market. Maybe, maybe not. But I know I'd rather buy several OLEDs and throw them out every year (which wont happen, I have a 3ry old, 1yr old and brand new OLED and the picture quality is still great on all of them) and enjoy that delicious picture than use the XDR. Obviously your mileage may vary.

That's all fine. But that's completely missing the point of why Apple didn't choose an OLED panel for a display meant for professionals. Accurate color and calibration are kind of a big deal, and are all impossible on OLED.

People love OLEDs for the black levels and the bright colors. But OLEDs do not have accurate colors. Consumers like bright colors. Professionals like accurate colors. That's why Apple didn't use OLED in a display meant for professionals.

I have an OLED TV. I get how nice they look. But it's a completely different use case.

 

[TheRealAlex]

Ok we need an LG 4K OLED Vs. the Apple XDR Display side by side. ASAP.

 

[MarkC426]

The biggest problem with tv’s are they are glossy.......?
Reflections are annoying.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Yes. They do. Each pixel has it's own LED that can be shut off. That's the entire basic point of the tech.

This is literally the first sentence on Wikipedia about MicroLED:
"microLED, also known as micro-LED, mLED or µLED, is an emerging flat-panel display technology. microLED displays consist of arrays of microscopic LEDs forming the individual pixel elements."



There's another point missed here:
Because each pixel in an OLED degrades differently and develops it's own color weight, a OLED display cannot be color calibrated.

You can go through the motions. You can generate a profile. But because each pixel is different you can't actually do a professional calibration.

Kind of a deal breaker as a display tech for a pro market. Not as much a problem for an LED display.



That's all fine. But that's completely missing the point of why Apple didn't choose an OLED panel for a display meant for professionals. Accurate color and calibration are kind of a big deal, and are all impossible on OLED.

People love OLEDs for the black levels and the bright colors. But OLEDs do not have accurate colors. Consumers like bright colors. Professionals like accurate colors. That's why Apple didn't use OLED in a display meant for professionals.

I have an OLED TV. I get how nice they look. But it's a completely different use case.

No it doesnt. Duh, of course the pixel goes on and off, but the back light is not per pixel. You can live in la la land all you like where you talk about what microLED will or might become in the future (hey in the future we'll have flying cars -- doesnt do anything for me today) and what people want it to be, but here today, it's not per pixel, it's just smaller regions.

What Are Samsung's MicroLED TVs, and How Are They Different from OLED?

At the top of the television market, you have two big players: Samsung and LG.

www.howtogeek.com

Right now samsung showed off a panel at CES, it's jumbotron 146" wall that they havent figured how to scale down to less than a $1M or 75". It doesnt exist. Right now it lives with AirPower, until it doesnt. In the mean time we live with QDot/Qnot tech and whatever XDR has, which is crap blacks.

Youre very worried about the accuracy of colors, but not so concerned about the horrendous lack of accuracy about black, which is a color, and which effects a gradient of black colors, all dark shot films and photos (and UIs).

I get it's not for everyone, and the professionals that care, well, they are a sliver of a sliver. There are many more professionals that do not need registered accurate colors because they are not in broadcast TV or in the microscopic world of desktop publishing. For them OLED is an option. You dictating 'it shall not be so' because OLED doesnt work for you notwithstanding.

 

[deconstruct60]

No it doesnt. Duh, of course the pixel goes on and off, but the back light is not per pixel. You can live in la la land all you like where you talk about what microLED will or might become in the future (hey in the future we'll have flying cars -- doesnt do anything for me today) and what people want it to be, but here today, it's not per pixel, it's just smaller regions.

What Are Samsung's MicroLED TVs, and How Are They Different from OLED?

At the top of the television market, you have two big players: Samsung and LG.

www.howtogeek.com

Did you even read the article?

"... Until now. Samsung’s MicroLED fabrication technique creates nearly-microscopic light-emitting diodes, enough that each individual pixel in the corresponding LCD screen can be illuminated or turned off, just like an OLED screen. In fact, Micro LEDs are so small that each individual cell of each LCD pixel—the red, green, and blue lights that allow variable colors to be displayed—gets its own tiny LED light. ..."

That is what MircoLED is.

Right now samsung showed off a panel at CES, it's jumbotron 146" wall that they havent figured how to scale down to less than a $1M or 75". It doesnt exist. Right now it lives with AirPower, until it doesnt. In the mean time we live with QDot/Qnot tech and whatever XDR has, which is crap blacks.

This is goal post moving, wild hand waving at the current status of microLED in terms of mass production. Not whether it works or not. ( it does). Or pricing ( it is very expensive right now). Or how fast OLED will be shuffled out the door. ( there are still tube backlight monitors in some narrow places so OLEDs in some form will be around for a long time.)

Doing 75" screens in many sense is harder than doing something more reasonable like 4" - 13". It isn't that microLED placement behind every pixel gets easier at 75" unless making the pixels dramatically larger. But buy in large the 75" display is composed of much smaller assemblies that are cobbled together to get to 75" diagonal. Could stop sooner at shorter diagonal. The mass market "price anchor" for smaller screens is much lower though. That why these "ultra luxury" screens go bigger.
[automerge]1577899513[/automerge]

...
MicroLED is where you can get OLED quality and the per pixel blacks but without the downsides. Rumor is that Apple is going to add MicroLED to the MacBook Pro later this year. But in the meantime, they totally picked the right display technology for the XDR.

I think the rumor was that MicroLED was coming to Watch more so than the MBP. The MBP might get a better mini-LED. MicroLED is still pretty far away ( 2020 is rather dubious as a timeline for that size. )

Watch with MicroLED

Apple Watch With MicroLED Display Could Launch in 2020

Apple is reportedly in advanced talks with Taiwanese display manufacturers to use microLED displays in its products as soon as next year, according...

www.macrumors.com

[ 2020 is more likely another tweak of the current watch tech. ]

Older microLED rumor timeline, again with smaller (than Mac usage ) screens.

Apple Developing Its Own MicroLED Displays for Future Devices

Apple has a secret manufacturing facility in Santa Clara, California, where it is designing and producing test samples of its own displays, reports...

www.macrumors.com

P.S. The Apple Watch being 20+ Million per year in unit is collectively a large number of microLED subassemblies to get the economies of scale cost reductions to start to kick in. They are 'smallish' screens but there are a lot of them. Much more than highest end MBP's. ( even if latest version of watch sales are 50% of that 20+ M it is still larger in terms of units. )