Mac Pro Rising

[Hank Carter]

A Thermal Core redesign to support 1000W TDP is absolutely feasible w/o formfactor change (please don't convert it on a Thermodynamic class, I have a lot to teach you on thermodynamics), either from a material switch from Aluminum to copper, even to Heat pipes and Increased fan Speed, also switching the PSU to another beefier is feasible I've quoted few PSU for Rack Servers even smaller then the one on the mac pro and capable to deliver 1200W.

I'm not so sure of that, because the thermal core design doesn't seem to be able to handle the current power supply...

Reports of the nMP GPU dying from thermal failure are legion. I can't imagine that a material change is going to suddenly allow it to cool an even bigger 1200w power supply, unless you cranked up the fan speed to the point that it sounded like a turbine.

And any large PSU I have ever seen in a rack mount unit has a very loud high speed fan (often multiple) cooling the system.

Apple deserves some credit for trying something new, but it's a poor design and it's time to move on.

 

[jeanlain]

Yup..but seeing all 5 stars is....

There is a general correlation between rating and price paid.

 

[rGiskard]

I'm not so sure of that, because the thermal core design doesn't seem to be able to handle the current power supply...

Reports of the nMP GPU dying from thermal failure are legion. I can't imagine that a material change is going to suddenly allow it to cool an even bigger 1200w power supply, unless you cranked up the fan speed to the point that it sounded like a turbine.

And any large PSU I have ever seen in a rack mount unit has a very loud high speed fan (often multiple) cooling the system.

Apple deserves some credit for trying something new, but it's a poor design and it's time to move on.

My knowledge of thermodynamics is far below that of an engineer in the field, but copper's heat conductivity is over twice that of aluminum. I suspect a copper heatsink with thinner and denser cooling fins would be sufficient to cool a Broadwell-EP and two high end GPUs at full clock speed, which would require a larger PSU but not a full 1200W. An aluminum heatsink with copper heatpipes would probably also work.

I've also been told by an engineer that a redesign of the fan and airflow channel above the heatsink are all that is needed to fix the cooling issues. He was not impressed and called it a "stupid design".

 

[mp11]

Thing is, why WOULD you put a workstation inside of a little box? Yeah, it's an impressive engineering accomplishment... but it's not like there was some desperate need for tiny workstations. And that miniaturization comes with a cost in characteristics EVERYONE cares about, like thermal headroom, expandability, etc. It's like, if I were at a trade show, and had this conversation with an Apple engineer:

"Hey, check this out. It's the new Mac Pro, and I think you'll be impressed..."

"Wow, look at all those pumps and filters inside that tube. Looks like some kind of intricate water cooling... no wait, that's not water running through there, that's... what IS that?"

"It's mayonnaise."

"Mayonnaise?!?"

"Yes. ::smug look:: You heard correctly. This is, in fact, the first mayonnaise-cooled Xeon workstation ever created. And 100% GMO free. With Mac Pro 7,1 we went back to the the drawing board again, to reimagine the concept of what a workstation could be. It took a huge effort in custom engineering - we spent man-months just finding a way to fit the 2500 watt PSU it takes to drive all the hydrodynamics. Yeah, mayonnaise cooling pushed us to reexamine every design assumption we ever had. Storage, RAM, GPU? All totally external now. Needless to say, there was more than a little soul searching, but I think the results speak for themselves."

"I can't... I can't even believe that's possible... or that someone would even try..."

"Of course you can't. Who could have done something like this but Apple?"

"Uhhhhh...."

"Can't innovate anymore my ass!"

 

[rGiskard]

yes there are coming http://press.asus.com/PressReleases...style-and-Gaming-Innovations-at-Computex-2016 32" DP1.3
http://www.bitfeed.co/page/asus-designo-curves-and-proart-5k-preview-computex-video


DP1.3 already supports 8K https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#1.3, you I think you mean to wait three year for an 8K Display to be commercially available...



nVidia would come to the Mac as Display GPU as soon they sit with apple and agree a good deal, I dont care on CUDA while I recognize its an superior GPGPU environment for macOS targeted apps is more critical to support Metal than cuda, as metal provides faster more efficient GPGPU.

When I need another GPU, I could sell the Mac Pro (as I'll do soon) and buy a New One, not a big deal, the Accountable Cost Delta could be registed as Hardware Depreciation for Tax purposes and actually give me an positive balance at FY end.



The Ugly of PCIe slots is system integrity (not just damaged MB which is rare but occurs, but stability issues which is more often), also You end with an NOT OVERALL OPTIMAL SYSTEM FOR A MODERN TASK, BECAUSE WHILE YOU CAN INSTALL A MODERN GPU (WHICH ACCOUNTS 2/3 of the SYSTEM COST) YOU STILL RUNNING ON A 4 YR OLD CPU, WHICH CREATES HUGE BOOTLE NECKS.

Further I don't care on GPU-GENERATION Upgrade-ability With PCIe4 close to be released it's naive to think you'll could upgrade any current system to PCIe4 based GPUs on 4yr from Now.

DP1.3 supports 8K 30hz. You need DP1.4 for 8K 60hz.

You don't care about CUDA? Great, I guess nobody needs it then!

"Accountable Cost Delta". You've got to be kidding me.

"NOT OVERALL OPTIMAL SYSTEM FOR A MODERN TASK, BECAUSE WHILE YOU CAN INSTALL A MODERN GPU (WHICH ACCOUNTS 2/3 of the SYSTEM COST) YOU STILL RUNNING ON A 4 YR OLD CPU, WHICH CREATES HUGE BOOTLE NECKS."​

You realize that "Caps Lock" is an euphemism for "Idiot Lock", don't you?

1. GPU tech currently progresses faster than CPU tech.
2. Some uses demand more GPU power, others more CPU power.
3. Four years on, most pro users have moved to a new Mac Pro. GPU upgrade cycle is every year or two.

 

[Hank Carter]

My knowledge of thermodynamics is far below that of an engineer in the field, but copper's heat conductivity is over twice that of aluminum. I suspect a copper heatsink with thinner and denser cooling fins would be sufficient to cool a Broadwell-EP and two high end GPUs at full clock speed, which would require a larger PSU but not a full 1200W. An aluminum heatsink with copper heatpipes would probably also work.

I've also been told by an engineer that a redesign of the fan and airflow channel above the heatsink are all that is needed to fix the cooling issues. He was not impressed and called it a "stupid design".

I started out in industrial design before switching majors and even I can tell that at the very least the nMP needs bigger vents for proper ventilation.

And while we're at it someone needs to point out to Apple that heat rises and that it was an equally stupid decision to remove the vents from the top of the iMac 5k, which not surperisingly also has thermal problems. But hey, it's thin and pretty.

 

[OS6-OSX]

"It's mayonnaise."

Common knowledge!

 

[Apple Master]

I think Apple would kill the Mac Pro forever before admitting their mistake and doing another redesign back towards a tower format or something like it.

A Mac Pro it is not. I think they should bring back the cheese grater or a slightly refined version of it that lets you customize it, for commercial and consumer and then slowly EOL the trash can after remarketing it as a high end mac mini.

Problem solved.

 

[kennyisalive]

I hope Apple gets the **** out of the Pro market. That way the industry will move towards a fairer and more democratic process of acquiring hardware.

This is such ********.
[doublepost=1467600191][/doublepost]

When did they become my people?

Yes, you would be correct it a poll showed the opposite of the Best Buy survey results. Unless the sample is taken at random it would be considered scientifically invalid. However "my people" haven't provided such a poll to demonstrate the nMP a failure.

The issue isn't about whether the nMP meets the needs of people. The issue is it doesn't meet the needs of people who need the capabilities found in the cMP. If Apple offered the option of an updated cMP along with the nMP I doubt many would be raising an issue with the nMP.

No, the issue is that Apple is literally FORCING their customers to buy 3-year old hardware. There is literally no other option to buy if you want the latest and greatest from Apple.

It's a failure in the most complete definition of failure.

The tech world revolves around the notion of INNOVATION.

IF APPLE WANTS TO INNOVATE, UPDATE THE ****ING HARDWARE YOU ****S.

 

[Apple Master]

I hope Apple gets the **** out of the Pro market. That way the industry will move towards a fairer and more democratic process of acquiring hardware.

This is such ********.
[doublepost=1467600191][/doublepost]
No, the issue is that Apple is literally FORCING their customers to buy 3-year old hardware. There is literally no other option to buy if you want the latest and greatest from Apple.

It's a failure in the most complete definition of failure.

The tech world revolves around the notion of INNOVATION.

IF APPLE WANTS TO INNOVATE, UPDATE THE ****ING HARDWARE YOU ****S.

So what chips are in it now and what better options are available in terms of speed?

 

[calaverasgrande]

From out of nowhere…

The nMP is going down the tubes. Cancelled. EOL. In the trash can.

Why? Word in Apple HQ is sales of the new form factor are disaster. Worse failure than Power Mac G4 Cube because studios and major buyers complained loudly and then switched to Windows workstations, hit Apple where they feel it.

But Mac Pro is not over. Factory now retooled for 7,1.

macOS Sierra RAID is not without purpose, but no current Macs have a use for RAID. But macpro7,1 will.

Even bigger complaint than loss of vast internal storage? Loss of PCIe slots. Typical studio invested tens of thousands in PCIe hardware now useless with tubular Mac Pro. Easier to switch to Windows than invest in TB. macpro7,1 changes the game.

I have seen. Not conventional tower but maybe just as good. Or maybe not. Far superior to Tube Trash Can. Don’t expect anything like cMP tower.​

Who am I? No one.

Funny, I have two raid arrays connected to my cylinder Mac Pro, as. we. speak.

As far as most Macs that I see in professional use, you know like post houses, ad agencies and broadcast facilities? No massive internal storage. All that stuff is down the hall in the server room. Connected via 10GBE or fiber. For which there are Thunderbolt solutions. Or sitting in a DAS unit like a thunderbay.
The only people who miss 'massive' internal storage are hobbyists.

I for one do not miss smashing my knee on the cheese grater.

 

[jeanlain]

While I don't believe Apple will reintroduce the tower design, they may offer the option to go with just one GPU, if they're not completely stupid and finally got their head of of their a$$.
Only a handful of apps under OS X take advantage of 2 GPUs, and in general you're better off with one fast GPU than with two slower ones (like the D300s).
Putting two GPUs in every model is almost as idiotic as building the next iMacs with two displays welded together.

 

[pat500000]

Guys...this Apple sickness is strong in this universe. The symptom: to bust tim's head. Although people on this Mac Pro forum were discussing about amd gpu as possibility....but the only legit rumor that may indicate the next Mac Pro is the coding in El Capitan.

Edit: maybe the real Mac Pro is the new Apple office that they are building....you can customize engineers and add office spaces for storage.

 

[Hank Carter]

The only people who miss 'massive' internal storage are hobbyists.

Or professionals who have to take their machine on location in an anvil case.

I for one do not miss smashing my knee on the cheese grater..

Sounds like you need a bigger desk.

 

[Mago]

The Mac Pro is not selling good because from 8 months ago in people's mind is imminent a "Mac Pro Update", not because 90% or more of the nMP aren't happy (with few exceptions where on extra long rendering task they GPU/PSU didnt).

A Failure? no, It hyped enough, and when the new barely improved MP gets released you'll cant get one due backlog for months (due the small assembly).

It Can Be improved? Absolutely, a TDP increase to 800W plus Two 300W real Compute GPU with option to choose nVidia or AMD also Intel Xeon Phi, would be glorious and shut-up most mouths (except apple-haters), but actually very few will purchase a 17000$ Mac Pro (2x5000$ GPU + 4000$ CPU + Apple Bite), but I think Apple Should have designed the Mac pro from the beginning around a 800W Max TDP an allow a wider customization ranging from Dual medium power gaming GPUs ( as polaris 11) to Behemoths as nVidia P100 or AMD Vega.

No User Upgradeable GPU is a Problem? for Sales no, for DIYers and 2nd market yes, but also Apple Should Offer Continuous Upgrades as long the new component is available not delaying it until the next Big Show ( aka KeyNote), Apple Should Fight the Vacuum Sales Man syndrome (VSM), and behave on each market as should be, the VSM dont hurt on Niche products as the iPhone but on Markets as the Personal computer where options and tech emerges every day is an absolute stupidity.

Apple is Dangerously going to an Dead End Road (the iPhone), this generation iPhone 7 may start the iPhone debacle, Android isn't anymore the mockup iPhone-wannabe, From Android 7 Google has an OS that outperforms on Security, features, ecosystem and flexibility anything iOS can Offer, only barely advantage from iOS is Siri expanded context compared with Google Now, but Google also is well known beign steps forward apple on AI development, further their products aren't tied to a single brand which is good for penetration but bad for programmers, whatever means more money for Google & associated.

Is absolutely pathetic how slow is Apple Updating its macs, not to mention the HORRIBLE MAC APP STORE (which looks more like a graveyard than a shopping mall).

Apple needs a re-structuring, not continue buying flawed streaming services, the iPhone Sales wont support Apple's sins for ever, and sooner than later you'll see what I'm saying.

 

[linuxcooldude]

3. Four years on, most pro users have moved to a new Mac Pro. GPU upgrade cycle is every year or two.

Workstation graphic cards are on a longer refresh cycle. Add a year or two on top of that.
[doublepost=1467643135][/doublepost]

While I don't believe Apple will reintroduce the tower design, they may offer the option to go with just one GPU, if they're not completely stupid and finally got their head of of their a$$.
Only a handful of apps under OS X take advantage of 2 GPUs, and in general you're better off with one fast GPU than with two slower ones (like the D300s).
Putting two GPUs in every model is almost as idiotic as building the next iMacs with two displays welded together.

Dual cards is more relevant over a longer period of time. The dual D700's had more performance than a Titan X that came out two years later.

 

[Fl0r!an]

Workstation graphic cards are on a longer refresh cycle. Add a year or two on top of that.

True, but Macs never had real workstation GPUs, beside some Nvidia Quadro BTO options. Apple could just take the latest ( ) consumer chips (e.g. Polaris 10, Fiji) and call them "FirePro XYZ". They did the same with the initial release of the nMP, don't see a reason why they shouldn't do the same again.

 

[linuxcooldude]

True, but Macs never had real workstation GPUs, beside some Nvidia Quadro BTO options. Apple could just take the latest ( ) consumer chips (e.g. Polaris 10, Fiji) and call them "FirePro XYZ". They did the same with the initial release of the nMP, don't see a reason why they shouldn't do the same again.

Until they came out using the Firepro series. Before that, not really. I've already talked about nearly all workstation cards being based on their consumer versions on the the Radeon & GeForce brand.

 

[deconstruct60]

My knowledge of thermodynamics is far below that of an engineer in the field, but copper's heat conductivity is over twice that of aluminum.

The Thermal core plays two roles in the Mac Pro design; thermal and structural. Structural in that the cards are mounted into the core. Copper is not a good structural candidate as aluminum.

I suspect a copper heatsink with thinner and denser cooling fins would be sufficient to cool a Broadwell-EP and two high end GPUs at full clock speed, which would require a larger PSU but not a full 1200W.

An aluminum heatsink with copper heatpipes would probably also work.

This makes no sense. If have two functions it will take more space. It isn't the thermal transfer speed that is the limitation. It is the surface area. If need to dissapate more heat by the core it just needs to be bigger. Aluminum or copper is not material if can't get the heat transferred into the air. The air transfer is far more driven by the surface area (and laminar flow across surface) than in the thermal conductivity of the base material.

I've also been told by an engineer that a redesign of the fan and airflow channel above the heatsink are all that is needed to fix the cooling issues. He was not impressed and called it a "stupid design".

It isn't a stupid design, but it is not a design optimized around "top end gaming" (e.g., running the GPUs in Crossfire mode coupled to high CPU workload. )

The majority of the top of the Mac Pro is taken up by the radio antennas. IHMO, it is about 1" too narrow if going to stick with clogging up most of the top with radio stuff. Could keep the same proportions ( 9.9 and 6.6 ==> 10.9 and 7.6 ). But 850-1000+ W power supplies are likely not coming.

They probably want to keep the "lift up and off" cover so the radios will probably stay in the center. Wider and taller should allow more vents and improvements to ducting inputs to the fan without disrupting the radios too much.
[ Or alternatively move the radios out of the center and to upper edges if put "radio windows" into the added height to the case. ]

 

[pat500000]

This graphical problem that Apple had been having with Mac Pro reminds me of mbp 2011.

 

[rGiskard]

The Thermal core plays two roles in the Mac Pro design; thermal and structural. Structural in that the cards are mounted into the core. Copper is not a good structural candidate as aluminum.





This makes no sense. If have two functions it will take more space. It isn't the thermal transfer speed that is the limitation. It is the surface area. If need to dissapate more heat by the core it just needs to be bigger. Aluminum or copper is not material if can't get the heat transferred into the air. The air transfer is far more driven by the surface area (and laminar flow across surface) than in the thermal conductivity of the base material.




It isn't a stupid design, but it is not a design optimized around "top end gaming" (e.g., running the GPUs in Crossfire mode coupled to high CPU workload. )

The majority of the top of the Mac Pro is taken up by the radio antennas. IHMO, it is about 1" too narrow if going to stick with clogging up most of the top with radio stuff. Could keep the same proportions ( 9.9 and 6.6 ==> 10.9 and 7.6 ). But 850-1000+ W power supplies are likely not coming.

They probably want to keep the "lift up and off" cover so the radios will probably stay in the center. Wider and taller should allow more vents and improvements to ducting inputs to the fan without disrupting the radios too much.
[ Or alternatively move the radios out of the center and to upper edges if put "radio windows" into the added height to the case. ]

Structural: Simple to reinforce the copper heatsink, but it may not need it. You overestimate the structural importance of it and the weakness of copper.

Top end gaming: Nope, GPUs burn up with professional use, not gaming, which is less demanding than the overnight renders that burn up GPUs.

Other users believe that thermal problems could be to blame, with some resorting to software tricks that force the Mac Pro's fans into high gear. Others have gone as far as to construct elaborate cooling apparatuses around their towers, both of which appear to have helped alleviate the issues.

Totally agree on the Tube's lid. That is a problem area and it needs a serious redesign. But even cranking fan speed doesn't solve the thermal issues with the tube, so it is likely the heatsink is not properly matched to the TDP of three high wattage processors. My guess is that Apple are waiting on more efficient AMD GPUs so they don't have to bother with an re-engineering of their own.

The only way they ever get 300W GPUs in a Mac Pro is to trash the Tube and start over. Like you said, there is now way a higher wattage PSU will work in the Tube.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Top end gaming: Nope, GPUs burn up with professional use, not gaming, which is less demanding than theovernight renders that burn up GPUs.

The GPU burning up issue is much overstated as to the real cause or multiple individual problems, if so. Hank, which gave us one story, did not provide substantial proof other than the opinion of the owner. Which he supplied no temperatures involved, what Apple support provided no explanation of the actual problem. One would think if its actually overheating GPU's should auto thermal shutdown preventing damage. So other than opinion and no facts involved is just that, opinion as to the actual cause.

 

[rGiskard]

No User Upgradeable GPU is a Problem? for Sales no, for DIYers and 2nd market yes

Umm, no. MVC sells a crap ton of video cards to studios in LA. For a while I sold flashed video cards locally (NOT with stolen MVC roms), and most buyers were professionals from small businesses or studios. Both AMD and Nvidia recognized the Mac Pro market and released Mac versions of their most powerful cards that would work in the cMP given the constrains of the logic board PCIe power sockets.
[doublepost=1467652946][/doublepost]

The GPU burning up issue is much overstated as to the real cause or multiple individual problems, if so. Hank, which gave us one story, did not provide substantial proof other than the opinion of the owner. Which he supplied no temperatures involved, what Apple support provided no explanation of the actual problem. One would think if its actually overheating GPU's should auto thermal shutdown preventing damage. So other than opinion and no facts involved is just that, opinion as to the actual cause.

Thanks for "unskewing" the deluge of individual reports. Surely they are all liars or idiots who don't know how to use their Tubes.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Thanks for "unskewing" the deluge of individual reports. Surely they are all liars or idiots who don't know how to use their Tubes.

I asked for facts, not opinions on the cause of failure for these individual reports.

 

[rGiskard]

Workstation graphic cards are on a longer refresh cycle. Add a year or two on top of that.

Apple don't even use real workstation video cards. The GPUs don't use ECC VRAM and they are underclocked to try to deal with the thermal problems.

The Tube is all about maximizing margins. It's like they began with a profit margin target, a size target, and a "I don't want to hear it" target, and then the poor engineers had to do the best they could.
[doublepost=1467653553][/doublepost]

I asked for facts, not opinions on the cause of failure for these individual reports.

There are myriad reports of thermal issues and you dismiss them as opinion. Don't expect hard data because the only one's who have it are at Apple HQ.