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Mac Pro Rising
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Careful there, some people here like or need internal HDD and are not happy about the going external.
Just saying...
Why not have both? Why restrict yourself to only one or the other? You do know that having internal drives doesn't in anyway remove from you the possibility of plugging external ones...
Internal drives have many advantage over external one. You can't unplug them by accident and they don't take any extra desk space. In my home lab I prefer to use the desk space for my projects instead of my storage. I could use a NAS but those cost more than just adding a drive inside my "box".
Removing internal expansion has given you nothing in return. Everything that you can do with the un-upgradable nMP you could also do with an upgraded cMP if apple would have released one. In fact, Apple could've keep both model available and it would have been more intelligent. People interested in a small discrete workstation could have bought the nMP and power user could have bought the "box" with internal slots instead of leaving in drove back toward windows/linux workstation or hackintoshes.
I don't consider the nMP more efficient. In fact, for certain uses, I consider it less efficient.
If that's what you need, I'd say try to hold off this year to see what happens. After that, it's like pulling off a band aid. Make the total switch and do it all at once. Most of the big content creation apps are mac/win or win/linux now.
You will never like a PC as much as the mac, I think. But you will not be held hostage by the strange update schedule of Apple. It's been kind of a relief planning out a PC purchase right now - for $2600 I can have 6 core, 32 GB ram, 512 M.2 beast machine built with one of the latest VR compatible, CUDA supported GPUs from nVidia in it. Less if I want the hassle of building it myself. I saw reviews of intel processors ahead of retail release, knowing that I could buy exactly what suited my needs down to the number of PCI lanes. It was nice.
I want Apple to steal me back. But I'm not counting on it, which is why I'm keeping a PC upgrade in my back pocket. And if many posters here are any indication, they want pro users to leave more than they want Apple to win us back by taking the VR/content creation world by storm.
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I don't know how people can claim with a straight face that it's more efficient while also telling people to get external thunderbolt multi-drive enclosures and external PCI cages. Those things have additional fans and power supplies. They are a mess.
This! This right here! It absolutely baffles me how people can argue against more flexibility. They don't want it? Fine...I've no problem with it. I want it. So why do they continue to argue with me about it?
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Exactly! The nMP is a great, compact system if it meets your needs without any expansion. As soon as you start expanding it the sleek, compact design is lost in all of the cables, cases, and power supplies which go along with external expansion.
Especially if you add a pegasus multi drive thunderbolt enclosure. The last time I looked, the ones that hold 4 drives cost $1000. That's not efficient on anyone's wallet.
I haven't even looked at multi slot external PCI cages. At some point it gets ridiculous budgeting for $500-$1000 here and there on a $3500+ computer for another box with another power supply. The sunk cost fallacy rears its ugly head at some point and your desk (or under it) ends up looking like the matrix.
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It may not be a smart move, but I agree that Apple is going to stick with the same casing used for the 6,1 nMP. Some cooling improvements seem likely as well, and the 50w bump for the PSU gives them more options for CPUs/GPUs.
IMO, the key advancement is USB-C and TB3 I/O. It may not happen overnight, but eGPU support on TB3 could make the 2nd Gen nMP capable of being the hub of a system powerful enough for media content creation applications like 4K video, VR, etc - despite the limitations of the internal AMD GPUs. Hopefully Apple will leverage the new I/O standards by moving to a CPU/MoBo that has lots of PCIe lanes, supports DDR4 RAM, and, most critically, can exploit TB3 fully.
I understand some folks have no interest in any external boxes for storage, eGPU, etc via TB3. For those of us that need such things, being able to park a noisy box away from your workspace via tactical fiber is a welcome feature.
I advocate for Apple to make a powerhouse workstation, or at least the hub of a legit workstation, with the 7,1 nnMP. It's my belief that the vast majority of users who need more crunch than the rMBP/iMac deliver will also want more capabilities than a "desktop class" offering. Yes, I'm sure there are some people who fit between iMac and workstation, but I'd posit that the market for a real workstation is much larger. If your mantra is "options", then my suggestion is to meet the needs of the masses with laptops/AIOs and bring the pros back to OS X with an "insanely great" workstation option on the top end.
IMO, the key advancement is USB-C and TB3 I/O. It may not happen overnight, but eGPU support on TB3 could make the 2nd Gen nMP capable of being the hub of a system powerful enough for media content creation applications like 4K video, VR, etc - despite the limitations of the internal AMD GPUs. Hopefully Apple will leverage the new I/O standards by moving to a CPU/MoBo that has lots of PCIe lanes, supports DDR4 RAM, and, most critically, can exploit TB3 fully.
I understand some folks have no interest in any external boxes for storage, eGPU, etc via TB3. For those of us that need such things, being able to park a noisy box away from your workspace via tactical fiber is a welcome feature.
I advocate for Apple to make a powerhouse workstation, or at least the hub of a legit workstation, with the 7,1 nnMP. It's my belief that the vast majority of users who need more crunch than the rMBP/iMac deliver will also want more capabilities than a "desktop class" offering. Yes, I'm sure there are some people who fit between iMac and workstation, but I'd posit that the market for a real workstation is much larger. If your mantra is "options", then my suggestion is to meet the needs of the masses with laptops/AIOs and bring the pros back to OS X with an "insanely great" workstation option on the top end.
fast
- eGPU support on TB3
T-Bolt 3 has one quarter of the bandwidth of a PCIe 3.0 x16 slot. Are you going to connect two to four external PCIe boxes (at $1k or more each) to run GPUs at a quarter of the bandwidth of a Z-Series? (Forget running them at an eighth to a sixteenth of the bandwidth in a single box.) (And it's quite possible that PCIe V4 with double the bandwidth will be here before the nnMP.)
Don't get me wrong - eGPU on T-Bolt 3 is a great idea for an Apple laptop docking station. Use the power-miser GPU when portable, and have some real muscle when at home or in the office.
But please, don't put the eGPU inside the monitor so that you have to toss the LCD to upgrade the GPU, or toss the GPU if the LCD panel craps out.
- Hopefully Apple will leverage the new I/O standards by moving to a CPU/MoBo that has lots of PCIe lanes
Little hope here. Intel puts the majority of the fast PCIe lanes in the CPU package - the path to "lots of PCIe lanes" is a dual socket (or quad socket) system. If you want "lots of PCIe lanes", do what the Z-Series does and put in a second socket. (I have some quad-socket systems with four Titan-X on full bandwidth x16 slots - the system has 9 PCIe slots.)
- I advocate for Apple to make a powerhouse workstation, or at least the hub of a legit workstation, with the 7,1 nnMP.
Inconsistent with the tube design. T-Bolt 3 is barely keeping up with Ethernet cards these days.
- bring the pros back to OS X with an "insanely great" workstation option on the top end.
Not going to happen with a glued-down tube with 50 watts more power.
Apple could build something that makes a Z-840 look like crap - but the bean counters think that there's more profit in asking focus groups which new colors for watch bands would sell best,
Unfortunately, sticking with the same design is a constraint that makes many of your suggestions next to impossible.
- eGPU support on TB3
T-Bolt 3 has one quarter of the bandwidth of a PCIe 3.0 x16 slot. Are you going to connect two to four external PCIe boxes (at $1k or more each) to run GPUs at a quarter of the bandwidth of a Z-Series? (Forget running them at an eighth to a sixteenth of the bandwidth in a single box.) (And it's quite possible that PCIe V4 with double the bandwidth will be here before the nnMP.)
Don't get me wrong - eGPU on T-Bolt 3 is a great idea for an Apple laptop docking station. Use the power-miser GPU when portable, and have some real muscle when at home or in the office.
But please, don't put the eGPU inside the monitor so that you have to toss the LCD to upgrade the GPU, or toss the GPU if the LCD panel craps out.
- Hopefully Apple will leverage the new I/O standards by moving to a CPU/MoBo that has lots of PCIe lanes
Little hope here. Intel puts the majority of the fast PCIe lanes in the CPU package - the path to "lots of PCIe lanes" is a dual socket (or quad socket) system. If you want "lots of PCIe lanes", do what the Z-Series does and put in a second socket. (I have some quad-socket systems with four Titan-X on full bandwidth x16 slots - the system has 9 PCIe slots.)
- I advocate for Apple to make a powerhouse workstation, or at least the hub of a legit workstation, with the 7,1 nnMP.
Inconsistent with the tube design. T-Bolt 3 is barely keeping up with Ethernet cards these days.
- bring the pros back to OS X with an "insanely great" workstation option on the top end.
Not going to happen with a glued-down tube with 50 watts more power.
Apple could build something that makes a Z-840 look like crap - but the bean counters think that there's more profit in asking focus groups which new colors for watch bands would sell best,
AidenShaw wrote: T-Bolt 3 has one quarter of the bandwidth of a PCIe 3.0 x16 slot. Are you going to connect two to four external PCIe boxes (at $1k or more each) to run GPUs at a quarter of the bandwidth of a Z-Series?
Agree with many of your points, but I do think multi slot expansion chassis that can support up to 4 TB3 connections (tactical fiber might be able to carry the whole load on one cable, or perhaps multi strand) with 4 connectors "fanned" out on each end is viable for around $1,500 - $2,500. Bandwidth would still fall short of internal PCIe3 x16 slots, but would support some use cases quite well. YMMV.
Agree with many of your points, but I do think multi slot expansion chassis that can support up to 4 TB3 connections (tactical fiber might be able to carry the whole load on one cable, or perhaps multi strand) with 4 connectors "fanned" out on each end is viable for around $1,500 - $2,500. Bandwidth would still fall short of internal PCIe3 x16 slots, but would support some use cases quite well. YMMV.
Many facilities do not allow external drives for security reasons, hence the need for internal bays.
It's easy to stuff a drive in a bag and walk out the door. Try that with a cMP.
What, exactly, is "efficient" about it? I can't see any legit argument aside from "smaller", but there's no real demand for a tiny MP. I can see the size of the cMP being inconvenient in some cases, but there's nothing stopping Apple from designing a MP that has internal space but is still quite a bit smaller/lighter than the cMP.
--Eric
Obviously.
But what do you think is more likely to be noticed and what can be achieved without being noticed?
Someone prying open a machine in the middle of an office and yanking out a hard drive with a screwdriver or someone stuffing an external drive into a bag?
It's happened before. Ask Sony Pictures.
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Conversely many facilities insist on external storage for security reasons. What's more secure all your storage in an access & climate controlled computer room or in a cMP that can be opened & emptied of storage in a couple of seconds? The cMP isn't even lockable.
No, not really.
Over the past +20 years I've witnessed or been involved with numerous security audits at multiple facilities and in every case external drives are strictly forbidden, unless they are located in a room with limited and controlled access.
External drives are far too easy to unplug and remove from a building without anyone noticing. Apparently that's what happened with the email scandal at Sony Pictures.
When external drives are a necessity they have to be utilized in an office that is secured by a lock with a key code or magnetic keycard.
Usually USB ports etc are also disabled so you can't attach a thumbdrive or extra storage device leaving the machine with a port for the keyboard and mouse. This port is usually secured by software to alert systems if a drive is connected or it will not allow it to be mounted.
At most of these facilities you can also forget about the internet on workstations. That's now on a separate WIFI network.
That's how every post production facility of any significance operates today. These days you can't even book work from most clients unless your facility has had a security audit and has been certified.
I'm not talking about some individual working in his basement. I'm talking about business with a secure machine room.
You still need local built in drives for the OS and workstations use local storage as a data cache. Hence the need for internal drives.
And I would love to see you open a locked cMP and remove all the drives in under 10 seconds. The case is locked and you would need to remove the sled and then remove the drive that is secured with screws. Yes, theoretically it can be done, but that would be pretty difficult do so without someone noticing.
It only takes seconds to stuff an external drive in a backpack and then walk out the door.
That's the kind of environment I work in which is why I still need CD's/DVD's but we have server space and fast networks and all your work goes there. This is actually the ideal spot for the nMP not the guy at home or working from a home office he needs that internal storage.
Ok, once more.
Yes, very obviously the vast majority of the data is stored on the servers and you are connected to them via a very high speed network. We are talking about a local data cache, not storing your source material locally on your desk.
Regardless of the network and the servers you will still need some local cache space for data.
You can not store this on an external drive for security reasons, hence internal storage.
Yes, you can use the internal SSD on the nMP. But the machine has only one SSD slot. So, you will be limited to the single internal SSD that also contains your OS. The nMP SSD is not terribly big and uses a custom connector. The biggest upgrade I have seen is 4TB from OWC. It also costs $2000 and you would still have your cache and OS on the same drive.
I can drop in a very large 10,000 rpm drive into a 3.5 bay for a few hundred dollars that dwarfs any SSD upgrade for the nMP. Or I could put a two drive 2.5 SSD RAID in one of the 3.5 bays. Again, much cheaper and efficient. And your cache is not on the same drive as the OS.
So, since the nMP only has one internal SSD slot you are essentially forced to go external, which is VERBOTEN.
If Apple had simply added a second SSD slot you would have a valid point.
But you would still have to talk the facility into spending $2000 for a 4TB SSD for every machine in the facility. If you multiply that times 100 machines or more and you are talking about a lot of money compared to dropping 3.5 HD or 2.5 SSD into bays. Having been a department manager I can tell you that's not going to go over very well.
Aside from that the other poster claimed that it was just as easy to whip out a screwdriver and disassemble a cMP in the middle of a facility to get out the drive, as it is to unplug an external drive and stuff it in a bag. Obviously that is nonsense.
There's a lock on the back. It flips up and goes through the lever that opens the side panel.
You miss my point. I said nothing about external drives & specifically wrote about external storage & mentioned a locked climate controlled computer room. Fibrechannel or some other high performance interconnect is how the drives are interfaced to the systems generally as shared storage.
I have seen at a couple of high security defence establishments a requirement for external disk drives local to the system so that they could be disconnected & put into a safe when not in use.
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The lock on the cMP is aluminium & pretty flimsy so could be jemmied very easily. I think that any potential thief would be quite happy to steal the sleds as well as the drives so wouldn't bother wasting time removing the screws.
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It's not very robust though as it's a piece of hinged aluminium & easy enough to open with a crow bar.
Lets think about it in "possibilities" way.
Apple undervolted and downclocked the GPUs to fit thermal design of the MP. They have got 7 TFLOPs of compute power from 258W of power. Currently we are few years forward, and from the same amount of power, Apple might be able to get 14 TFLOPs of compute power with downvolted and declocked Fiji chips.
There is no GPU in the world that allows for this level of performance in this thermal envelope, and for some time - there still won't be any. If they will wait for Vega, they will get even more performance from the same the same thermal envelope. This is 450W computer. Custom build PC's with GTX 970, R9 380X have this level PSUs with 65W quad core CPUs.
And here you can have dual GPUs, 12 cores(even going by today standards).
Don't think about Mac Pro as a typical workstation. It is specifically designed for Apple ecosystem needs.
I don't think people who are running 2012 machines care too much about power use or thermal envelope.
Which is fine I suppose, provided they aren't deciding that none of the rest of us should care.
