More evidence Apple is abandoning the pro market?

[jwpoof]

Apple isn't abandoning pros, but the number of people who need a mac pro these days is far too small for them to care. From a business / shareholder / perspective, it would be irresponsible for apple to focus on the tiny segment who need mac pros. The reality is that for many highly paid, highly skilled creatives, less expensive apple products like iMacs and macbook pros are all that is needed. I think apple will continue to embrace that segment, because they're already making those computers anyway and there's a lot of cache involved in keeping that segment.

To me, a pro is anybody who is paid for their work, regardless of the tools they use. Frankly I think it's amazing that an iMac can provide more than enough power for some highly paid people to do top notch work. In my experience, many of the best creatives are using old machines and care very little about what's under the hood. There are also those who have the best software and hardware they could ever buy and barely know how to use it.

I'm a professional who uses mac products. For a variety of reasons, I need a workstation. That doesn't really say anything about the quality of my work or its place on the "professional" scale. I do pretty well but I don't have a "kid" or a "help desk", nor would I pay to have one. I'd rather keep my money and continue to use hardware and an operating system that requires very minimal upkeep. If I have to switch to Windows, it won't be the end of the world, but it will be a pain. Part of beauty of OS X is that it's a very easy OS to master and maintain.

Getting rid of graphical software RAID inside disk utility is not a positive development for my segment, but we are too tiny to matter anymore. Apple is enormous, and they're trying to build an OS free of feature creep and complexity. They are no longer in the business of including niche concepts like software RAID inside of their OS. Like I said, I'm not happy it's gone but it's not at all surprising.

 

[AppleDroid]

Apple isn't abandoning pros, but the number of people who need a mac pro these days is far too small for them to care. From a business / shareholder / perspective, it would be irresponsible for apple to focus on the tiny segment who need mac pros. The reality is that for many highly paid, highly skilled creatives, less expensive apple products like iMacs and macbook pros are all that is needed. I think apple will continue to embrace that segment, because they're already making those computers anyway and there's a lot of cache involved in keeping that segment.

Honestly for me if I can get a 4c MBP with 32GB of ram that's all I really need for Photoshop, Lightroom, and desktop publishing. I got the nMP solely because I prefer NEC screens to the iMac and I don't have room for two giant monitors currently. Well that and going over 16GB of ram active daily.

 

[Mago]

There are "PRO'S" that aren’t proficient enough to cut 'n paste from Apple support, but on the other hand are system intensive enough to need raid subsystem...

The problem is what the industry (Appl) defines as a pro user and some enthusiasts or Prosumer that see themselves as a pro user.

There are a common factor between pro Prosumer and enthusiasts, both spend a lot of time behind their system, those on corporations have help desk etc, those on they own have Google and Apple support, at day ends both have solved their issues (raid permission authentication upgrades etc).

The problem with this thread is there are an small group of cMP widows, that tries to build an reality that doesn't exist just trying to persuade the crowd on that abomination that was passing the venerable upgradable (and certainly profitable for them that sells upgrades as flashed gpu or 2nd hand cpu and storage cards) old Mac Pro , all those cries when an pro user just plug an external storage unit or when an user instead patch ("upgrade") their Mac Pro sells it and buy an new one.

Everyone gets what deserves soon or late.

 

[Mago]

Apple isn't abandoning pros, but the number of people who need a mac pro these days is far too small for them to care. From a business / shareholder / perspective, it would be irresponsible for apple to focus on the tiny segment who need mac pros. The reality is that for many highly paid, highly skilled creatives, less expensive apple products like iMacs and macbook pros are all that is needed. I think apple will continue to embrace that segment, because they're already making those computers anyway and there's a lot of cache involved in keeping that segment.

To me, a pro is anybody who is paid for their work, regardless of the tools they use. Frankly I think it's amazing that an iMac can provide more than enough power for some highly paid people to do top notch work. In my experience, many of the best creatives are using old machines and care very little about what's under the hood. There are also those who have the best software and hardware they could ever buy and barely know how to use it.

I'm a professional who uses mac products. For a variety of reasons, I need a workstation. That doesn't really say anything about the quality of my work or its place on the "professional" scale. I do pretty well but I don't have a "kid" or a "help desk", nor would I pay to have one. I'd rather keep my money and continue to use hardware and an operating system that requires very minimal upkeep. If I have to switch to Windows, it won't be the end of the world, but it will be a pain. Part of beauty of OS X is that it's a very easy OS to master and maintain.

Getting rid of graphical software RAID inside disk utility is not a positive development for my segment, but we are too tiny to matter anymore. Apple is enormous, and they're trying to build an OS free of feature creep and complexity. They are no longer in the business of including niche concepts like software RAID inside of their OS. Like I said, I'm not happy it's gone but it's not at all surprising.

I don't believe the Mac user base decreased or is so small, Apple don't upgrades the Mac Pro every year because they manage sales as vacuum cleaners sales.

Now there are youtuber among most of the Mac Pro user (as in general video editing users) not The same user base when the original Mac Por go on sale, musicians, also stock traders are among the new user base, old school photoshop and Web developers most migrated to the 27" iMac which is the other true pro machine that Apple sells (just if they - Apple - would put an descent gpu inside...).

The day's where an Mac Pro was used as a server are way behind, most Nas do the job much better and more less for less.

 

[sigmadog]

The problem is what the industry (Appl) defines as a pro user and some enthusiasts or Prosumer that see themselves as a pro user.

As I said earlier, this is just a variation of the True Scotsman fallacy, but it is now looking more like circular logic:

"The nMP is for pros because only pros use the nMP. So if you think you're a pro but you prefer the cMP or want to use Disk Utility, then you aren't a REAL PRO."

Such a silly discussion at this point.

 

[AidenShaw]

Windows Never included Raid Support, which is the most popular OS among the PROs ? Is lacking native Raid an Issue for windows Pros?

What a ludicrously ignorant statement, congratulations for your spectacular lack of knowledge.

RAID 0-1-5 support has been part of the "Disk Management" app in NT since at least late in the last millennium.

"striped" = RAID-0
"mirrored" = RAID-1
"RAID-5" = RAID-5

 

[Mago]

As I said earlier, this is just a variation of the True Scotsman fallacy, but it is now looking more like circular logic:

"The nMP is for pros because only pros use the nMP. So if you think you're a pro but you prefer the cMP or want to use Disk Utility, then you aren't a REAL PRO."

Such a silly discussion at this point.

This thread is plagued from Formal Fallacy:
from the beginning post (conjunction fallacy, they conclude that apple hiring expert on an non-apple product measn apple abandons the pro market), Denyng antecedents and lot of syllogism (the case on raid support), not to said the Ignorant argument, correlative fallacy (they argue not providing an GUI means abandonment of the Pro's market), proof by verbosity.

And my favorite one, Ad hominem, attack me instead my argument (they disqualify my argument on basis I didn't response an question precisely, when that question is little related to the discussion and was extensively answered by another (case the permission repairs).

Pick your favorite, in wikipedia there is an list you can apply to every post in this tread on pro or against the thread main argument (apple abandon pro market).
[doublepost=1454202518][/doublepost]

What a ludicrously ignorant statement, congratulations for your spectacular lack of knowledge.

RAID 0-1-5 support has been part of the "Disk Management" app in NT since at least late in the last millennium.

View attachment 613428

"striped" = RAID-0
"mirrored" = RAID-1
"RAID-5" = RAID-5

ad omimem

You should detail "NT SERVER" enabling Raid on XP required to Hex Edit some Files, certainly not for the heart faint.

From W8 MS introduced Storage Spaces (an sort of Raid Pool) read what Ars Technioca recomended "its current iteration is simply too flawed to recommend in most circumstances" http://arstechnica.com/information-...es-explained-a-great-feature-when-it-works/3/

The true is that people on windows use to go on 3rd party solutions, which comes back to my arguments.

I don't know it current state, but please dont compare Windows NT Server with XP pro, 7, 8 these are for desktops.

 

[AidenShaw]

I don't know....

Very true. You don't know what you are talking about.

RAID-0 and RAID-1 have been in every desktop Windows system released this century.

 

[Bytehoven]

So are we now replacing the TRUE SCOTSMAN Fallacy with the TRUE PRO Fallacy?

I know this has all been said many times on the forums in many ways, but you put together a nice summary sigma dog. In some cases as a PRO USER we know just enough to be dangerous. But we also often push the limits of what the hardware/software intended to provide.

Back in the day when Digidesign was trying to charge $5k for the original 4 channel ProTools system, a few of us from coast to coast were using (2x) AudioMedia 2 channel cards within Opcode Studio Vision to achieve a very powerful MIDI + 4 channel authoring environment, not only less than half the cost, but with superior MIDI sequencing. In some way it was a poor man's Synclavier.

I remember the frustration expressed by Peter Gotcher and others with whom we had open USENET discussions all the time... and in the years since there has remained a productive tension between US and THEM when it came to taking what Apple and 3rd party developers would give us and what we figured out to do with it.

The cMP really has earned a place near the top of the list of hardware which continues to defy it's expiration date, and not because WE didn't want to invest in the next Apple offering, but rather because what came next fell short of fulfilling our needs.

I have always kinda chalked it up to WHO is participating in the decision process. You look at Apple and their isolationist development process and you get FCPro X. You look at Adobe and you get the CC Suite of creative tools. What's the difference? Adobe was smart enough to hire more than a few of US to be part of their development team.

The beauty or the horror... the more things appear to change, the more they stay the same.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

That the trashcan hasnt been updated in 3 years and still sells for the same full initial price, that's also unfortunate.

 

[throAU]

Why would Apple remove the frontend from the DiskUtility.app?

Just Apple being a pain in the a$$.

Because they re-wrote the app, and the number of customers impacted badly enough to cry about it, worldwide can probably be counted in this thread. So it hasn't been re-written into the GUI yet, and maybe never will be.

Maybe it will come back, but disk utility has no doubt been re-written to make use of core storage and make it less confusing for the 99.9% of users who want to do basic things with it.

if you want to do uncommon or advanced things with your computer, whether it be disk utility or something else, learn to use the advanced tools. In this case, command line.
[doublepost=1454211919][/doublepost]

Hey, I have an idea. Copying files. Remove it from the GUI. REAL pros will use the command line. You know, while we're at it, lets remove folders. Real users know how to use mv. Hey, since apple doesnt sell an external 4K screen, no need to support it. Let them write their controller for it, they can if they are a REAL pro, they dont need the arrangement pane to be able to position it.

Then again, anyone doing that kind of endless tinkering isnt a real creative PRO since they dont work at Pixar.

And opera of all apologies.

Oh, but my pet *need* for ZFS, toats mgoats.

Res ipsa loquitur.

99% of people copy files.
99% of people do not repartition their computers.
Of the 1% who do repartition their computers, probably close to 99% do not have or use RAID.

You're just making yourself look silly with that analogy.


And as to the whole pro vs. non-pro things. Depends what type of pro you are talking about.

Pros who use Macs are usually creative professionals who have no care or business messing with partitioning.

IT Pros? Sure, but they can use the command line.


edit:
Also...

How often do you repartition your Mac? How many hours per week do you spend on it? That's what I thought.

Basing any sort of assumptions on disk utility's GUI is a complete joke.

Plus.... command lines are a lot easier to send via email. Or copy/paste off a web page. Or script.

Perhaps apple has discovered that way too many "pros" are breaking their machines and bringing them in for repair based on messing with things they don't understand in disk utility's GUI?

If any significant portion of your day involves disk utility you should be scripting it, rather than wasting your time clicking buttons.

 

[Bytehoven]

Pros who use Macs are usually creative professionals who have no care or business messing with partitioning.

Perhaps apple has discovered that way too many "pros" are breaking their machines and bringing them in for repair based on messing with things they don't understand in disk utility's GUI?

Ouch! Yeah, I'm certain you're correct.

 

[sigmadog]

Perhaps apple has discovered that way too many "pros" are breaking their machines and bringing them in for repair based on messing with things they don't understand in disk utility's GUI?

Yeah, moving it to the Command Line will really solve that problem.

 

[Micky Do]

Nah, not abandoning creative professionals.

The dilettante market may feel ignored, but they are probably better served with a suite of iMacs, iPads and iPhones, which do get updated more frequently.

The Mac Pro may have been around in its present form of a couple of years now, but still provides the grunt and upgradeability that many pros require, albeit lacking the latest tweaks. Mac Pros don't come cheap, which professionals invest in to last a while, not to be turned over like some fashion item. A new Mac Pro will come when it is good and ready, with significant changes, not just the latest bells and whistles.

 

[throAU]

Yeah, moving it to the Command Line will really solve that problem.

Actually, you'd be surprised.

If the options aren't there people are less including to click their way into trouble.

Also, its a lot harder to copy/paste screw something up than tell people to click a particular button.


source: i used to be in hell desk support, not for apple, but general desktop...

 

[MacVidCards]

The point on discussion is OSX supporting RAID on Multiple Drives as point of discussion on "PRO Feature", an FUSION drive is an SINGLE DRIVE notwithstanding integrates an second SSD for caching using it on another way is not supported.
Neither OSX Raid Support is an Pro-Must Have, Neither Actually lost from the OS.

Evading the truth with lots of picking doesn't make your arguments stand.

I've been skiing all day and missed this latest post.

Do you know when 2 separate drives are called a "fusion" drive and thus limited in their use? When Apple tells you they are, and only then.

Try thinking for yourself instead of quoting Apple, you will find it liberating.

Apple still ships multiple systems with more than one drive. People capable of thinking for themselves understand this. I use one drive in my 2014 Mini for OSX, the other for Windows because I am clever enough to know that "fusion" is an Apple marketing term.

I own the computer and the dual SSD drives in it. I can think for myself and know that I and I alone can decide how to format my drives.

You will find quite often that thinking beyond Apples "reality" will open up greater use of their machines. (Both "Pros" and amateurs understand this)

 

[Bytehoven]

I've been skiing all day and missed this latest post.

That reminds me of the movie quite "... never feel sorry for a man who owns a plane."

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Because they re-wrote the app, and the number of customers impacted badly enough to cry about it, worldwide can probably be counted in this thread. So it hasn't been re-written into the GUI yet, and maybe never will be.

Maybe it will come back, but disk utility has no doubt been re-written to make use of core storage and make it less confusing for the 99.9% of users who want to do basic things with it.

if you want to do uncommon or advanced things with your computer, whether it be disk utility or something else, learn to use the advanced tools. In this case, command line.
[doublepost=1454211919][/doublepost]

99% of people copy files.
99% of people do not repartition their computers.
Of the 1% who do repartition their computers, probably close to 99% do not have or use RAID.

You're just making yourself look silly with that analogy.


And as to the whole pro vs. non-pro things. Depends what type of pro you are talking about.

Right, and a brigade of apologists saying how great it is that apple removes features, and kills either pro programs and/or features is the hight of looking sensible. And it's also great that you have such a full understanding of the point of any analogy. Carry on scholar.

 

[throAU]

Right, and a brigade of apologists saying how great it is that apple removes features, and kills either pro programs and/or features is the hight of looking sensible. And it's also great that you have such a full understanding of the point of any analogy. Carry on scholar.

They have not killed any pro feautres, and with things like grand central, opencl, etc. have added a bunch of APIs which will make writing powerful software far easier.

You appear to be confusing seldom used advanced features in a system configuration utility that are still there in the command line as "pro features".

As far as pros getting actual work done are concerned, they're irrelevant.

 

[MacVidCards]

The apologies continue.

Meanwhile nobody has found a single "advantage" for this software thatvtheyvfeel so moved to stridently support.

"You didn't need those advanced fearures" is best one so far.

 

[Mago]

I've been skiing all day and missed this latest post.

Do you know when 2 separate drives are called a "fusion" drive and thus limited in their use? When Apple tells you they are, and only then.

Apple is offering an hybrid drive the same that WD sells as hybrid drive both are telling and encourage you to use it as a single drive as they conceived because their ssd part maybe degraded quickly if not used as conceived period.

Try thinking for yourself instead of quoting Apple, you will find it liberating.

I'm not an cMP widow, I don't hate Apple because kicked my ass from the 2nd hand Mac Pro upgrades business. I Don't need to back an opinion I don't have and I consider biased by personal interest.

Apple still ships multiple systems with more than one drive. People capable of thinking for themselves understand this. I use one drive in my 2014 Mini for OSX, the other for Windows because I am clever enough to know that "fusion" is an Apple marketing term.

I own the computer and the dual SSD drives in it. I can think for myself and know that I and I alone can decide how to format my drives.

You will find quite often that thinking beyond Apples "reality" will open up greater use of their machines. (Both "Pros" and amateurs understand this)

Sorry, if you acquire an Mac with fusion drive solution actually you don't have an dual drive Mac, you have an Mac with an Sata 6gbps interface and another pcie ssd interface hosting an small ssd conceived for caching not for storage using this way degrades it, used as conceived will last a decent time, otherwise will degrades fast unless you acquired an Mac with SSD only and later you populated the 2nd empty interface with an hdd provided by you this case OSX allows you separate access also dual booting, and since you ssd blade was conceived for storage sure you'll have an decent service life. But thus isn't an configuration that Apple sells is a DIY that voids the warranty explicitly.

Apple don't sells Mac with dual drives only sells three Macs (the mini and the iMacs) that have two storage interface not intended for dual drive solution.

I have to remember you since you are evading this truth is that you claimed you have an dual drive Mac for which Apple should support Raid GUI, I replied that the last Mac with dual drives was the mini server discontinued so no new Mac is capable of native raid because for raid an prerequisite is to have two storage units the same kind and size on the same kind of interface, no new Mac meets these criteria, so discontinuing raid support should not be able issue for new Mac owners since raid solutions from 3rd party comes with its own management app.

 

[Mago]

That reminds me of the movie quite "... never feel sorry for a man who owns a plane."

Anthony Hopkins.. As Charles Morse in the Edge, one of my favorites.

 

[Mago]

The apologies continue.

Meanwhile nobody has found a single "advantage" for this software thatvtheyvfeel so moved to stridently support.

"You didn't need those advanced fearures" is best one so far.

Actually native raid is more a source of issues that solutions, encouraging people to use single only internal storage actually reduces support issues, and those crying for large storage pools still have Thunderbolt enclosure with optimized management software.

 

[DearthnVader]

I have to remember you since you are evading this truth is that you claimed you have an dual drive Mac for which Apple should support Raid GUI, I replied that the last Mac with dual drives was the mini server discontinued so no new Mac is capable of native raid because for raid an prerequisite is to have two storage units the same kind and size on the same kind of interface, no new Mac meets these criteria, so discontinuing raid support should not be able issue for new Mac owners since raid solutions from 3rd party comes with its own management app.

I don't know why your stuck on "New Macs", El Capitan supports the MacPro3,1 4,1 5,1, MacMini 4,1 5,3 6,2 that can all utilize the raid software.

I could understand dropping support for raid in the DiskUtility.app after dropping support for these models, but doing so before was an oversight at best.

 

[Mago]

I don't know why your stuck on "New Macs", El Capitan supports the MacPro3,1 4,1 5,1, MacMini 4,1 5,3 6,2 that can all utilize the raid software.

I could understand dropping support for raid in the DiskUtility.app after dropping support for these models, but doing so before was an oversight at best.

Raid suuport isn't missing, the GUI fir RAID setup is missing (maybe comeback later), does raid gui is an Pro Feature or lack of pro?.

Does newer mac with fusion drive support RAID by using the blade pcie SSD and the sata port on Raid 1/0 ?