More evidence Apple is abandoning the pro market?

[throAU]

Lol.

whining that apple are abandoning the pro market based on the GUI for disk utility.

Most professionals don't spend their day in disk utility for their job. They use creative software.

And if you need to do anything serious with disk utility...

DISKUTIL(8) BSD System Manager's Manual DISKUTIL(8)

NAME
diskutil -- modify, verify and repair local disks

SYNOPSIS
diskutil [quiet] verb [options]

DESCRIPTION
diskutil manipulates the structure of local disks. It provides informa-
tion about, and allows the administration of, the partitioning schemes,
layouts, and formats of disks. This includes hard disks, solid state
disks, optical discs, CoreStorage volumes, and AppleRAID sets. It gener-
ally manipulates whole volumes instead of individual files and directo-
ries.

etc.

 

[Mago]

Got a hard time with "whoops, I was wrong"?

It's another who's had a hard time yesterday assuring there is no more raid tool in OSX.

The question about permission was from another guy about DU command line to do disk repairs and permission are automatically repaired on updates, also thru command line.

Why does 2 drives in a Mac = Fusion?

What is fusion if you aren't speaking Apple PR ?

It's 2 drives.

In a Mac.

Shipping today.

I choose to format mine as 2 separate drives instead of drinking the fusion kool aid.

Apple conceived and offered Fusion As a single drive from user perspective (OSX manage the ssd for caching) not as two separate hdd, you can replace the 128gb ssd for a big one on 256/512gb (lack sense since are too expensive) and remove the spinner install osx on the SSD and later plug again the spinner to get 2 different drives working, but this is not how Apple sell this configuration or intend it to be used so they aren't engaged to support DIY out their scope.

Finally this dual drive can't be used for raid this renders moot your argument, if you have an mini server sold before mid 14, is another question but you still have the command line.

Time to stop seeing the world through Apple colored glasses.

My 2014 Mini (same as shipped today) has 2 separate drives.

Please try to think outside the Apple box. It will free you from needlessly apologizing for things like castrated utilities and castrated computers.

Your bias is showing.

I have also the Last Mac mini I got the basic version (4gb/500gb), I can upgrade it to fusion drive (I considered either to add the SSD and a 2tb hdd) since I use it as a server, or get an bigger ssd and have 2 storage media, all this are DIY further you can't raid on SSD + Spinner or on SSD pcie + SSD sata not on OSX not on *UX not on Wincrap period.

So do the Mac mini late 2014 support dual drives enabled for raid NO, only the mini server sold until mid 14 allows 2 spinners inside sorry not in production. Your argument is moot.

Your trolling is showing.

And yet a team of afficianados are defending it with impassioned attempts at...something. There is no rational defense yet they keep typing.

I have yet to hear anyone justify this as an improvement or justify it in any way other than "Apple did it, it must be right"

They removed functionality guys, not a step in the "pro" direction.

This case is not related to pro user support, is a general issue doesn't said Apple is leaving the pro market.

Earlier with El Capitan I loose Apple talk connectivity with my NASes I can't do time machine on the NASes neither, this was not an trivial issue (solved on OSX 10.11. 2) and affected my office workflow, we opened tickets at Apple support an we had to implement an not so elegant turn around for a while, SO THIS MEANS APPLE WAS LEAVING PRO S?

There is someone APASIONADO on trolling Apple.

 

[Mago]

Also about disk util, most large corporations hire personnel for internal help desk so the PROs don't spend their costly time solving systems issues where they're not expert, thus is the way real pro's work.

If someone is an help desk pro, having to deal with command line shouldn't be an issue.

If someone is an pro not related to help desk, spending time with issues where are not an specialist is not an Pro behavior.

 

[throAU]

Also about disk util, most large corporations hire personnel for internal help desk so the PROs don't spend their costly time solving systems issues where they're not expert, thus is the way real pro's work.

If someone is an help desk pro, having to deal with command line shouldn't be an issue.

If someone is an pro not related to help desk, spending time with issues where are not an specialist is not an Pro behavior.

Exactly. A professional who is paid to do stuff like video, code, audio, etc. does not mess with disk util generally. Other than perhaps to create disk images or format USB sticks.

It's a waste of their time - get a kid paid a lot less per hour to do it or get apple to fix it while you spend your time making money.


edit:
co-incidentally, so is micromanaging files on disk + SSD storage rather than just letting fusion handle it at the block level. As for "not trusting it" (fusion) - that is why you have backups. You shouldn't "trust" any single storage pool (note, i said "pool", i'm including RAID arrays in that statement). They're all prone to failure, destruction or theft.

some people just like wasting their time faffing with technical things they really don't need to be messing with though.

 

[Lesser Evets]

They aren't abandoning it, rather they are abandoning good business sense and being incompetent.

The entire line of Apple goods is paltry for a mega-billion-trillion-worldwide-über corporation.... and they can't update their few Macs EVERY time a better CPU comes along (or perhaps once a year)?? They can't revamp their monitors after 5 years?? They can't focus any decent attention on 10% of their revenue-making devices??

Incompetence shouldn't be confused with determined obsolescence.

Will they get back to it, ever, with bells on? Who knows. It is 2016 and they don't seem worried about their Macs and Pros, aside from the Pro notebooks and iMacs. If they put in the time they could have 15% revenue from Macs!

Jobs claimed they would focus on the Phone and iPad for a few years and then get back into the computers circa 2012 or so (if I remember properly). They kind of got overwhelmed by the mobile paradigm and forgot that there is a core foundation behind those devices birthed from the "pro" market.

 

[Mago]

... so is micromanaging files on disk + SSD storage rather than just letting fusion handle it at the block level. As for "not trusting it" (fusion) - that is why you have backups. You shouldn't "trust" any single storage pool (note, i said "pool", i'm including RAID arrays in that statement). They're all prone to failure, destruction or theft.

Right now this is my approach I only use Raid on the Little Big disk since is the way to get the full TB and the Full SSD speed, nothing big to fear since is only used when doing compute not for storing data, that's is done on the NASs (SHBR eqv Raid 6) but using btSync, Time Machine is done using an external thunderbolt (Little Big Disk 2) enclosure on Raid 1, in doomsday case, simple I plug an surviving disk from the LBD2 on an enclosure and I can rebuild my system on a new mac in just minutes, also my nas have an 2nd Nas to mirror, on other room. This is Triple Down on redundancy.

 

[MacVidCards]

It's another who's had a hard time yesterday assuring there is no more raid tool in OSX.

The question about permission was from another guy about DU command line to do disk repairs and permission are automatically repaired on updates, also thru command line.




Apple conceived and offered Fusion As a single drive from user perspective (OSX manage the ssd for caching) not as two separate hdd, you can replace the 128gb ssd for a big one on 256/512gb (lack sense since are too expensive) and remove the spinner install osx on the SSD and later plug again the spinner to get 2 different drives working, but this is not how Apple sell this configuration or intend it to be used so they aren't engaged to support DIY out their scope.

Finally this dual drive can't be used for raid this renders moot your argument, if you have an mini server sold before mid 14, is another question but you still have the command line.



I have also the Last Mac mini I got the basic version (4gb/500gb), I can upgrade it to fusion drive (I considered either to add the SSD and a 2tb hdd) since I use it as a server, or get an bigger ssd and have 2 storage media, all this are DIY further you can't raid on SSD + Spinner or on SSD pcie + SSD sata not on OSX not on *UX not on Wincrap period.

So do the Mac mini late 2014 support dual drives enabled for raid NO, only the mini server sold until mid 14 allows 2 spinners inside sorry not in production. Your argument is moot.

Your trolling is showing.



This case is not related to pro user support, is a general issue doesn't said Apple is leaving the pro market.

Earlier with El Capitan I loose Apple talk connectivity with my NASes I can't do time machine on the NASes neither, this was not an trivial issue (solved on OSX 10.11. 2) and affected my office workflow, we opened tickets at Apple support an we had to implement an not so elegant turn around for a while, SO THIS MEANS APPLE WAS LEAVING PRO S?

There is someone APASIONADO on trolling Apple.

Lots of typing.

You stated that no shipping Macs support more than 1 internal drive.

You were wrong, adding lots more words doesn't make you less wrong.

Why exactly can't the two drives be raided?

(Please not something copy & pasted from Apple)

 

[Mago]

Lots of typing.

You stated that no shipping Macs support more than 1 internal drive.

You were wrong, adding lots more words doesn't make you less wrong.

The point on discussion is OSX supporting RAID on Multiple Drives as point of discussion on "PRO Feature", an FUSION drive is an SINGLE DRIVE notwithstanding integrates an second SSD for caching using it on another way is not supported.
Neither OSX Raid Support is an Pro-Must Have, Neither Actually lost from the OS.

Evading the truth with lots of picking doesn't make your arguments stand.

 

[DearthnVader]

El Capitan still supports the MacPro3,1 4,1 5,1 and MacMini's that had dual hard drives. Removing SoftRaid from the DiskUtility while these systems are still supported by the OS just doesn't make a lot of sense.

It's a "Pro Feature" that just vanished, any way you cut it.

 

[Mago]

El Capitan still supports the MacPro3,1 4,1 5,1 and MacMini's that had dual hard drives. Removing SoftRaid from the DiskUtility while these systems are still supported by the OS just doesn't make a lot of sense.

It's a "Pro Feature" that just vanished, any way you cut it.

Still present on command line, REAL PROS call Helpdesk and dont spend time on these things, Proficient DIYers also known how to do it, RAID cages includes its own GUI, all the point is moot in regard the discussion (apple leaving away Pro Market).

Whats is funny is the way other users "pretend to win" and argument battle (which battle?) when they are so evident both rookie or imposer.

 

[DearthnVader]

Still on present on command line, REAL PROS call Helpdesk and dont spend time on these things, Proficient DIYers also known how to do it, RAID cages includes its own GUI, all the point is moot in regard the discussion (apple leaving away Pro Market).

Whats is funny is the way other users "pretend to win" and argument battle (which battle?) when they are so evident both rookie or imposer.

Why would Apple remove the frontend from the DiskUtility.app?

Just Apple being a pain in the a$$.

 

[Mago]

Why would Apple remove the frontend from the DiskUtility.app?

Just Apple being a pain in the a$$.

We only can speculate on this, but in no way means they are leaving the pro's market, which is the point on discussion.

 

[DearthnVader]

We only can speculate on this, but in no way means they are leaving the pro's market, which is the point on discussion.

Death by a thousand paper cuts.

 

[Mago]

Death by a thousand paper cuts.

Windows Never included Raid Support, which is the most popular OS among the PROs ? Is lacking native Raid an Issue for windows Pros?

Linux Raid GUI are dismal at best, actually Linux community recoment setup Raid thru command line, is lacking an good Raid GUI and issue for Linux Pros?

 

[DearthnVader]

Windows Never included Raid Support, which is the most popular OS among the PROs ? Is lacking native Raid an Issue for windows Pros?

Linux Raid GUI are dismal at best, actually Linux community recoment setup Raid thru command line, is lacking an good Raid GUI and issue for Linux Pros?

This is why we use the Mac OS, because it has builtin support that Windows doesn't have, and we don't have to resort to the command line for everything like Linux users do.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Yes Apple for the most part will abandon the traditional concept of 'workstation' because it is a redundant marketing gimmick to tell the creative users they need server parts. A decade ago yes, it was the only way to the power. Now GPUs, super efficency and virtualised workstations are taking over so things like Xeon CPUs in a computer are a waste if you're not using the very specific nature of server hardware. As for Apple, they have bigger fish to fry like home integration, transport, energy delivery, space, health.

 

[DPUser]

REAL PROS call Helpdesk and dont spend time on these things

REAL PROS come in all shapes and sizes. They use their equipment to make money. They spend their time doing the things necessary to accomplish their work which, in many cases, includes computer set up and maintenance. Whether or not they "mess with the command line" is not the distinguishing factor here.

Just Apple being a pain in the a$$.

Exactly.

 

[Mago]

This is why we use the Mac OS, because it has builtin support that Windows doesn't have, and we don't have to resort to the command line for everything like Linux users do.

First time ever I read somebody choose an platform because have integrated GUI for Raid, psst Synology has the best Raid Management GUI, consider it as your Next Pro Platform, dont run Photoshop, Cubase (maybe on docker), etc but has a good raid....

What I see is an lot of cMP widows trying to build an opinion Matrix against the nMP where dreaming with the cMP resurrections, sorry guys in case Apple change the MP Form Factor again, one thing is sure will have no support for PC-Compatible PCIe, only nMP like PCIe, and at least it will not occur this year, the new iteration is confirmed as an trash can form factor.

[doublepost=1454172386][/doublepost]

REAL PROS come in all shapes and sizes. They use their equipment to make money. They spend their time doing the things necessary to accomplish their work which, in many cases, includes computer set up and maintenance. Whether or not they "mess with the command line" is not the distinguishing factor here.

Exactly.

The Friend SoyCapitanSoyCapitend answered better to you before you posted https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...g-the-pro-market.1953013/page-5#post-22520902

 

[DearthnVader]

First time ever I read somebody choose an platform because have integrated GUI for Raid, psst Synology has the best Raid Management GUI, consider it as your Next Pro Platform, dont run Photoshop, Cubase (maybe on docker), etc but has a good raid....

Builtin software raid support was just one example of this overall theme. The Mac OS doesn't get in the way of my work, I don't have to call the "Help Desk" every time I need to do something.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

However I do believe Apple will update the Mac Pro maybe one last time. Nvidia solutions might not be on the card ever again due to both companies competing in automotive market. Apple doesn't want to give a competitor any money. They already pay Samsung so much.

 

[Mago]

However I do believe Apple will update the Mac Pro maybe one last time. Nvidia solutions might not be on the card ever again due to both companies competing in automotive market. Apple doesn't want to give a competitor any money. They already pay Samsung so much.

The problem with nVidia is CUDA as closed source is an monopoly, maybe if open standard as OpenCL we still see nVidia based Macs, AMD while not on pair, are not so far behind, thanks to AMD migration more software now support OpenCL.

I dont give weight to the AppleCar issue, this is more matter of money and monopoly (same reason why Apple will introduce AMD CPU on the next gen iMacs and minis, maybe the mac pro too (8,1)

 

[DearthnVader]

However I do believe Apple will update the Mac Pro maybe one last time. Nvidia solutions might not be on the card ever again due to both companies competing in automotive market. Apple doesn't want to give a competitor any money. They already pay Samsung so much.

Apple will make the MacPro as long as it's profitable to do so, but just because they stick the "Pro" tag on the end of it doesn't make it a "Pro" Machine.
[doublepost=1454173677][/doublepost]

The problem with nVidia is CUDA as closed source is an monopoly, maybe if open standard as OpenCL we still see nVidia based Macs, AMD while not on pair, are not so far behind, thanks to AMD migration more software now support OpenCL.

I dont give weight to the AppleCar issue, this is more matter of money and monopoly (same reason why Apple will introduce AMD CPU on the next gen iMacs and minis, maybe the mac pro too (8,1)

I think Apple and nVidia have a pissing contest going, stemming from the fact that nVidia released drivers that let PC nVidia cards work in MacPro's. This increased the life of the cMP's and cost Apple a lot of money on the upgrade cycle, while nVidia sold a bunch of cards they didn't even have to support.

 

[sigmadog]

Still present on command line, REAL PROS call Helpdesk and dont spend time on these things… yadda yadda yadda

So are we now replacing the TRUE SCOTSMAN Fallacy with the TRUE PRO Fallacy?

In the olden days, a "computer pro" was someone who knew the ins and outs of their computer intimately and engaged in something called computer programming (frankly I have no idea what that entailed as I was trying to score with the girls at the time). Today, we are using the term "Pro User" not in that sense, but in the sense of a person who uses their computer professionally as a means to make a living, often as a creative arts professional.

Many Pro Users are not computer experts. They are software experts, but only in the sense that they know how to use their software to provide professional services and products (audio, video, print, apps, etc.). I consider myself a Pro User because I create professional graphic design and illustration every day using my Mac Pro 5,1.

Am I not a TRUE PRO because I don't know how to install an external PSU or build a Hackintosh? Should I be demoted from TRUE PRO because I'm not used to working in the Command Line? Am I less than Pro because I don't muck around in Terminal every day?

As a Pro User it's clear the current Mac Pro was not designed for me (2 GPUs, limited options, and few future expansion possibilities). It's also clear that the nMP was designed for a very narrow segment of the pro market, which disappointed me. But thankfully there were plenty of cMPs on the market (an iMac was out of the question - I have my reasons).

Also, I'm a Pro User without a Helpdesk, working in a small home studio. Apparently Apple has made it harder for PRO's like me by removing Disk Utilities from its latest operating system (this is news to me, and a good reminder why I find this forum so valuable). As someone still using Mavericks (10.9), I'm fine for the moment, but I dread the thought of upgrading.

The question in this thread is whether Apple is abandoning the pro market. To be honest, I think they are relying more on the loyalty of their pro users and their willingness to adapt to anything Apple tosses their way. This is not "technically" abandoning the pro market. It's more a matter of not really listening to it.

Also, I think Apple is trying to nudge the pro market towards more disposable tools. They've seen how lucrative this is on the consumer side of things, but too many pros have been holding on to our toys and not buying new ones frequently enough.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Check the command line for diskutil

Hey, I have an idea. Copying files. Remove it from the GUI. REAL pros will use the command line. You know, while we're at it, lets remove folders. Real users know how to use mv. Hey, since apple doesnt sell an external 4K screen, no need to support it. Let them write their controller for it, they can if they are a REAL pro, they dont need the arrangement pane to be able to position it.

Then again, anyone doing that kind of endless tinkering isnt a real creative PRO since they dont work at Pixar.

And opera of all apologies.

Oh, but my pet *need* for ZFS, toats mgoats.

Res ipsa loquitur.

 

[wubsylol]

The poll question is about creative professionals, not tech savvy computer pros who toy with Disk Utility and the command line.

Apple still actively support Logic Pro X, Final Cut Pro X (including Motion and Compressor), ProRes and the trashcan Mac Pro. The latter of which is marketed towards creatives.

It's unfortunate we lost the full Final Cut Studio, however many of the features have been transferred over to FCPX and Logic. Color was obviously never as sophisticated as something like Davinci Resolve.

Aperture, well, that's unfortunate, but they're still actively updating Camera Raw.

The times be changing, but that doesn't mean support is waning.