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Sehnsucht

macrumors 65816
Sep 21, 2008
1,165
0
I feel that Apple's ads insult my intelligence and that none of their points reflect why I bought a Mac.

That's just me though.

Wow, really? :confused: But hey, according to MS, you bought a Mac because:

1) You're rich and cool
2) You have a good sense of taste
3) You're mature
4) You're artistic

Ha ha... :D

No, but really...I have to wonder about the intelligence behind these advertisements. Microsoft evidently doesn't know what the most memorable part of these ads is going to be for the average viewer:

ad1.png


Seeing that is when you know MS is officially a few crayons short of a box. :D
 

Wikinerd

macrumors 6502
Jan 6, 2008
389
0
**wall of flamebait text**

Maybe you need to be reminded what Total Cost of Ownership means...

— there are costs that are neither tangible nor quantifiable

This list might help you understand what we spoke of:

PC: Easy as 1-2 3


As for the rest of that post, I'd like to see some facts and figures with sources before I would even think of telling you what's wrong...


BTW, I'd be interested to hear why are you staying on this forum of fanboys even though you hate Macs and us fanboys so much...
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
Maybe you need to be reminded what Total Cost of Ownership means...

— there are costs that are neither tangible nor quantifiable

This list might help you understand what we spoke of:

PC: Easy as 1-2 3
Should I make a list along the lines of running Software Update, repairing Disk Permissions, Verifying your hard disk, running daily/weekly/monthly scripts, and rebuilding a LaunchServices database?

Lets not forget rebooting for some software updates and the option to reboot when running a maintenance programs under OS X.
 

Wikinerd

macrumors 6502
Jan 6, 2008
389
0
Should I make a list along the lines of running Software Update, repairing Disk Permissions, Verifying your hard disk, running daily/weekly/monthly scripts, and rebuilding a LaunchServices database?

Lets not forget rebooting for some software updates and the option to reboot when running a maintenance programs under OS X.

First, maintenance programs are not necessary "for the average user" because HFS+ theoretically takes care of most of the defragging, permissions verify (during startup).

As for the software update reboot, that's required for any kind of operating system.

For all the others— running daily/weekly/monthly scripts, and rebuilding a LaunchServices database, I never had to do that—what did you do to your computer?!? (So goes the saying, "do not fix something that's not broken"...)
 

fiercetiger224

macrumors 6502a
Jan 27, 2004
620
0
I also agree. It is just stupid when Sheila says the MBP doesn't have as much RAM as the other computers. What many people do not know about Macs that have not used them much is that they don't need nearly as much RAM compared to Vista. A Mac running Leopard should be able to run better than Vista with only 1/4 of the memory. And if Sheila really needs more memory, its called order 4GB from OWC for only $50.

Apple needs to fight back with a commercial that lets new computer buyers know this.

True dat.

You know, actually, Apple doesn't need to fight back. You wanna know why? Because the people who are buying Macs know why they want it. It's usually the people who actually do research before buying into it, so they're usually a little more "tech-savvy" than the average consumer. So basically, the people who buy cheap PCs don't know or even care what comes with it, because they usually look at the sticker price and think it's a great deal.
 

mosx

macrumors 65816
Mar 3, 2007
1,465
3
Maybe you need to be reminded what Total Cost of Ownership means...

— there are costs that are neither tangible nor quantifiable

This list might help you understand what we spoke of:

PC: Easy as 1-2 3


As for the rest of that post, I'd like to see some facts and figures with sources before I would even think of telling you what's wrong...

You've got to be kidding me if you're referring to an ad by Apple as proof that PCs are bad and theres more to total cost of ownership.

Really? An Apple ad?

Let's look at what it says.

Remove unneeded bloatware

Bloatware? My HP shipped with a Norton trial and MS Office trial. My first two MacBooks had iWork and MS Office trials. Norton and Office take seconds to remove. What about iLife? iWeb, Garageband, iMovie, and iDVD. iLife is the ultimate in bloatware.

Configure security settings

At least Microsoft offers security. Gotta love how FileVault stores the password for the encrypted volume in an unecrypted manner. I also like how Windows has a built-in 2 way firewall. Something you can only get with paid software on a Mac.

3. Download and install OS security patches
4. Restart
5. Download / install extra security programs
6. Restart

No different than a Mac. Last OS X reinstall I did required about 4 runnings of software update and 4 restarts before it was finished.

7. Download / install drivers for peripherals
8. Restart

False. Printers, digital cameras, scanners, even TV tuners, don't require additional drivers with Vista and none of them require reinstalls. With my two printers in Leopard, I need 1GB worth of drivers installed. And the all-in-one still won't be fully functional. In Vista I just plug them in and its ready to go. No additional software needed. With my TV tuner I plugged it in, Windows installed the drivers and it was ready to go.

9. Remove optional Windows components

Can I uninstall iLife fully without having to reinstall or search down all of the hundreds of plist and other files left behind? Whats that? No? Thats what I thought.

10. Update new virus list
11. Run full system virus scan
12. Update new malware list
13. Run full system malware scan

Only needed if you're foolish enough to do things that would bring you into contact with malware.

14. Download / install application updates
15. Restart

What? Apple's making fun of Microsoft because theres actually 3rd party software to choose from?

And what little 3rd party software is available for the Macs is never updated I assume? :rolleyes:

Only Apple's Windows software requires Windows restarts.

Apple can't make fun of Windows when its Apple's own shortcomings and poor programming skills that make it happen

16. Clean out system registry
17. Repair corupt system registry

Less likely than having to repair disk permissions in OS X.

18. Defragment hard drive

At least it doesn't require paid software like in OS X ;)

19. Free up disk space

And OS X is somehow immune? When you "uninstall" software in OS X, tons of little files get left behind in various places. Plus, again, we have to deal with the ultimate bloatware that is iLife. Not to mention the FAT universal binaries that have essentially doubled file sizes for applications.

20. Scan disk for errors
21. Run system file checker

Somehow Mac OS is immune to HDD failures? Let's not forget that OS X's file system is famous for needing "disk permissions" repaired as well.

22. Read online instruction manual

Because Apple gives you so much documentation with a Mac. I got a book telling me how great my Mac purchase was and thats it. At least my PCs have come with CDs containing the manuals.

If you want other "facts", feel free to google anything you'd like. Its all there for the reading :)

Edit: I really do think its hilarious how Apple pokes fun of Windows need for drivers. Driver updates bring new features, enhance performance, and take care of any issues. With OS X, you're stuck with what Apple provides. You're entirely dependent on what they want you to have or not have. And we all know how Apple is about bringing new features to the table for free. I had a TV tuner for my desktop PCs. Thanks to driver updates, they added in MPEG-2 encoding and even progressive scan encoding. All for free. Driver updates in Windows have also dramatically increased performance on my GPUs throughout the years, and added features to the soundcards I have owned.

It's also incredibly funny how Apple uses it as a downside, because of the fact that I can go buy a $400 desktop PC and throw any third party hardware I want in it and have it work. When was the last time I could buy an Apple desktop under $2,000 that had that sort of expandability? The current Mac Pro doesn't even offer that sort of expandability, seeing as how its limited to a very small number of PCIe slots, when most hardware is still PCI. And look at the notebooks! A limited number of ports, as well as only including a half-width ExpressCard slot and no docking station connector.

Only Apple would use their systems lack of features and expandability as a selling point.
 

DMann

macrumors 601
Jan 13, 2002
4,001
0
10023
Should I make a list along the lines of running Software Update, repairing Disk Permissions, Verifying your hard disk, running daily/weekly/monthly scripts, and rebuilding a LaunchServices database?

Lets not forget rebooting for some software updates and the option to reboot when running a maintenance programs under OS X.

Other than the fact that repairing permissions in OS X does virtually nothing at all, verifying the HD is not mandatory, and running scripts can be easily automated, I highly doubt the list would come close to 23.
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
First, maintenance programs are not necessary "for the average user" because HFS+ theoretically takes care of most of the defragging, permissions verify (during startup).

As for the software update reboot, that's required for any kind of operating system.

For all the others— running daily/weekly/monthly scripts, and rebuilding a LaunchServices database, I never had to do that—what did you do to your computer?!? (So goes the saying, "do not fix something that's not broken"...)
The running nightly scripts have been used as a baseless panacea much like Repairing Disk Permissions and running Onyx/Cocktail.

I have to rebuild my LaunchServices database every few weeks because my image files suddenly amass many duplicate programs under Open With in the context menu.

Other than the fact that repairing permissions in OS X does virtually nothing at all, verifying the HD is not mandatory, and running scripts can be easily automated, I highly doubt the list would come close to 23.
Computer maintenance is computer maintenance. It's worse when it's an obsessive compulsion.

Do you repair your disk permissions after every install or update?
 

DMann

macrumors 601
Jan 13, 2002
4,001
0
10023
Computer maintenance is computer maintenance. It's worse when it's an obsessive compulsion.

Do you repair your disk permissions after every install or update?

Absolutely not. OS X 10.5 will run its cron jobs automatically (actually, they're no longer handled by the UNIX facility "cron", they are now handled by a similar facility called "launchd". - whether you have left your computer on all night or not. You no longer need a utility to run missed maintenance as of OS X 10.5. It will run automatically at the next available opportunity.
 

cwedl

macrumors 65816
Jun 5, 2003
1,407
32
surely if you're video editing you need an os that can aleast cope with video? my vista machine powerful enough as it is can bearly cope with a few word documents let alone Outlook!
 

Wikinerd

macrumors 6502
Jan 6, 2008
389
0
You've got to be kidding me if you're referring to an ad by Apple as proof that PCs are bad and theres more to total cost of ownership.

Really? An Apple ad?

Let's look at what it says.

I've never said that it's proof. It's to give you an overall idea.


Bloatware? My HP shipped with a Norton trial and MS Office trial. My first two MacBooks had iWork and MS Office trials. Norton and Office take seconds to remove. What about iLife? iWeb, Garageband, iMovie, and iDVD. iLife is the ultimate in bloatware.

Norton took seconds to remove?!? Norton, as far as software, is one of the most notorious in being able to avoid full uninstallation... Please.

iLife? Well, those are things people actually use—and it's part of the operating system. What would you say to my not being able to remove Windows Media Player/Center, IE, Backup and Restore Center, Windows Mail, Windows Calendar, Windows Photo Gallery, DVD Maker, list goes on.

At least Microsoft offers security. Gotta love how FileVault stores the password for the encrypted volume in an unecrypted manner. I also like how Windows has a built-in 2 way firewall. Something you can only get with paid software on a Mac.

Do you have proof of that? If I'm correct, Apple stores user passwords in Blowfish encryption. (And currently the only way to crack FileVault is via cold-boot attack..)

No different than a Mac. Last OS X reinstall I did required about 4 runnings of software update and 4 restarts before it was finished.

Then surely you have no idea how to run them... You should skip all the ones that require restart first, i.e. install all the ones that don't require a restart, then install all the ones that requires reboots. That way you can minimize restarts to 2, consecutively, which takes around 5-10 min.

False. Printers, digital cameras, scanners, even TV tuners, don't require additional drivers with Vista and none of them require reinstalls. With my two printers in Leopard, I need 1GB worth of drivers installed. And the all-in-one still won't be fully functional. In Vista I just plug them in and its ready to go. No additional software needed. With my TV tuner I plugged it in, Windows installed the drivers and it was ready to go.

I'm sorry, I thought lack of drivers in Vista is the most infamous problem...

Google search: Vista lack of drivers

Can I uninstall iLife fully without having to reinstall or search down all of the hundreds of plist and other files left behind? Whats that? No? Thats what I thought.
Can I uninstall IE, and all those Windows *something* *something* (for a more comprehensive list plz refer to that above) software without having to reinstall without having to hunt down all the files and stuff in the Program Files folder, the WINDOWS folder, and whatever files they might have left behind in Documents and Settings?

... At least in Mac OS X, all those files are in the /Library and ~/Library folders...


Only needed if you're foolish enough to do things that would bring you into contact with malware.

What about these:
http://www.cert.org/incident_notes/IN-2000-07.html

And~ are you saying that at least a fourth of the US population are foolish? (and that's just current infections... I'd say 90% of all people have had their computer infected at some point in their life..)

What? Apple's making fun of Microsoft because theres actually 3rd party software to choose from?

Apple's emphasizing the fact that apps have a unified system of updating, so instead of scrounging across the net for patches and updates you can just run your app and click "Check for Updates"...

And what little 3rd party software is available for the Macs is never updated I assume? :rolleyes:

Time for you to get out of your little cave: http://www.google.com/search?q=mac freeware&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Only Apple's Windows software requires Windows restarts.

Really? Last time, I recall having to restart after an IE update (that was from 6 -> 7)... And what about Adobe?

Heck, even Office:mac requires you to restart (i.e. Microsoft products require restarts?)

Apple can't make fun of Windows when its Apple's own shortcomings and poor programming skills that make it happen

It's called frameworks. Microsoft's the one responsible for them.

Less likely than having to repair disk permissions in OS X.

Because they repair them during startup. Anything that cannot can be repaired then can be done so by clicking 4 times. (or just fsck)

At least it doesn't require paid software like in OS X ;)
...Partly because OS X can make do without "external defragmentation"?

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1375

And OS X is somehow immune? When you "uninstall" software in OS X, tons of little files get left behind in various places. Plus, again, we have to deal with the ultimate bloatware that is iLife. Not to mention the FAT universal binaries that have essentially doubled file sizes for applications.

But they're always in the same location: /Library or ~/Library...

AND you can use something like AppDelete or AppCleaner...


Somehow Mac OS is immune to HDD failures? Let's not forget that OS X's file system is famous for needing "disk permissions" repaired as well.

I'd need proof of that.

(HDD Failures are usually caused by external hardware factors. OS X has nothing to do with it. Anyhow MacBooks have that accelerometer to help recognize a fall and park the heads. )

Because Apple gives you so much documentation with a Mac. I got a book telling me how great my Mac purchase was and thats it. At least my PCs have come with CDs containing the manuals.

Save paper? "Green"? (Do remember that Apple was once the one criticized for not being green, using more packaging and printing manuals...)

Anyhow, why would you need manuals... Only software that has such a steep learning curve would need a thorough manual... (such as Office 07)

If you want other "facts", feel free to google anything you'd like. Its all there for the reading :)

And I have. Plz refer to the links above.

The running nightly scripts have been used as a baseless panacea much like Repairing Disk Permissions and running Onyx/Cocktail.

And why exactly would the average user need that? Is HFS+ that volatile? (in comparison to MS-DOS and HTFS?)
I have to rebuild my LaunchServices database every few weeks because my image files suddenly amass many duplicate programs under Open With in the context menu.

I recall there were quite a few solutions out there, one of them being "default apps" prefpane

Computer maintenance is computer maintenance. It's worse when it's an obsessive compulsion.

Yes it is. Just that I've had to do a lot less on Mac OS X than on Windows. XP or Vista.

Do you repair your disk permissions after every install or update?

Nope. Why should I? I've never seen an OS X update screw up permissions, rather unlike Windows XP's service packs,... (which corrupted hal.dll—SP3 update)
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
iLife isn't part of OS X.

However all those "Windows ..." applications are and ship on the operating system disc.

In before the versions of Windows.
 

ryanw

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2003
307
0
Anybody Else?

Anybody else here getting the feeling that Microsoft's "ad campaign" has actually stretched beyond the TV? Think about it. Here we are on "MacRumors.com" and we're getting TONS of PC people on here defending their PC and how much better it is. They're so articulated and seem to know everything about all the PC world, but they're not the typical mac lovers. So what the heck are they doing on here?

This feels way way way too bizarre to me.

I call BS on all the PC posts in this forum. We should stop responding to them, they're all being paid as part of the campaign. Very smart! Well done M$!
 

Wikinerd

macrumors 6502
Jan 6, 2008
389
0
iLife isn't part of OS X.

However all those "Windows ..." applications are and ship on the operating system disc.

In before the versions of Windows.

iLife ships on OS X discs too, as we are aware...

And iLife is as much as part of OS X as IE and WMP or WLM is to Windows... (and Windows also have their iLife counterparts... Windows Movie Maker, Windows Live Photo Gallery, Windows DVD maker, just to name a few..)
 

Wikinerd

macrumors 6502
Jan 6, 2008
389
0
Anybody else here getting the feeling that Microsoft's "ad campaign" has actually stretched beyond the TV? Think about it. Here we are on "MacRumors.com" and we're getting TONS of PC people on here defending their PC and how much better it is. They're so articulated and seem to know everything about all the PC world, but they're not the typical mac lovers. So what the heck are they doing on here?

This feels way way way too bizarre to me.

I call BS on all the PC posts in this forum. We should stop responding to them, they're all being paid as part of the campaign. Very smart! Well done M$!

I'd like to take this chance to ask Mosx why is he/she defending Windows "so valiantly" in a "Mac fanboy/girl" forum...
 

DMann

macrumors 601
Jan 13, 2002
4,001
0
10023
Anybody else here getting the feeling that Microsoft's "ad campaign" has actually stretched beyond the TV? Think about it. Here we are on "MacRumors.com" and we're getting TONS of PC people on here defending their PC and how much better it is. They're so articulated and seem to know everything about all the PC world, but they're not the typical mac lovers. So what the heck are they doing on here?

This feels way way way too bizarre to me.

I call BS on all the PC posts in this forum. We should stop responding to them, they're all being paid as part of the campaign. Very smart! Well done M$!
It's all quite amusing, actually - the majority of Windows Apologists are grasping for straws in defense of PCs running Windows, to an even greater extent than the ads are trying so desperately hard to do.
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
iLife ships on OS X discs too, as we are aware...

And iLife is as much as part of OS X as IE and WMP or WLM is to Windows...
I can bundle value added software just like any other OEM. It still doesn't mean that it ships with the operating system itself.
 

Wikinerd

macrumors 6502
Jan 6, 2008
389
0
I can bundle value added software just like any other OEM. It still doesn't mean that it ships with the operating system itself.

You mean that Windows Movie Maker, Windows Live Photo Gallery, IE, WMP, and those programs are shipped as bloatware accompanying the OS itself like how Mosx claims?

(They do accompany most Windows distributions that I know of... So, by Mosx's definition, they are bloatware that need to be removed.)
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
You mean that Windows Movie Maker, Windows Live Photo Gallery, IE, WMP, and those programs are shipped as bloatware accompanying the OS itself like how Mosx claims?

(They do accompany most Windows distributions that I know of... So, by Mosx's definition, they are bloatware that need to be removed.)
Once again it depends on how you define it.

I removed additional languages, printer drivers, the Office trial, and most of iLife on my MacBook. They're bloatware to me.

I just know this might boil down into first vs. third party software and that the hardware OEMs don't control what ships with Windows. I would please like to avoid such nonsense.

iLife doesn't ship with OS X retail just like anything beyond what's on the operating system disc doesn't ship with Windows. In before types of Windows licenses.
 

chrono1081

macrumors G3
Jan 26, 2008
8,728
5,210
Isla Nublar
Ram in the PC...

I could be wrong on this since I can't watch the Ad but if she needs 4GB of ram did she make sure to get a 64bit version of Windows?

...I bet she didn't....And most computers come with 32bit version installed. (I could be wrong though I've worked in a remote area the past 1.5 years so things may have changed.)
 

Wikinerd

macrumors 6502
Jan 6, 2008
389
0
Once again it depends on how you define it.

I removed additional languages, printer drivers, the Office trial, and most of iLife on my MacBook. They're bloatware to me.

I just know this might boil down into first vs. third party software and that the hardware OEMs don't control what ships with Windows. I would please like to avoid such nonsense.

iLife doesn't ship with OS X retail just like anything beyond what's on the operating system disc doesn't ship with Windows. In before types of Windows licenses.

Excuse me, but if you're saying iLife is bloatware, those windows + *** programs are bloatware also. They are installed from the OS disc, but are not needed.

As for the hardware deciding what to ship it with, I'd say, it's "apples and oranges"... It's part of the OS X install image, integrated into the system. They don't get paid for installing more iLife stuff... Nor can they uninstall them on the spot for you for a certain price—it's because they can't. It's part of the system. As much as WMP, Windows Live ___, etc.


PS. Besides, these programs are theoretically not bloatware because they do not take up that much space if you delete the main components and do not run background processes.
 

pika2000

Suspended
Jun 22, 2007
5,587
4,903
The first ad works because it simply gets to the point, price.
The second ad failed, since the guy is hardly a "power user," and contradicted himself about the specs that he wanted and what he bought (he wanted a laptop with good battery life, but guess what he bought).
The 3rd ad works, pointing 2 excellent points, blu-ray and games.
This latest ad failed. Simply because the girl wants to "cut" video. "Cut" video? WTF does that mean? Don't they mean edit? Oh, wait a second, Movie Maker vs iMovie 09. Hmmm, let's have her say "cut" instead. :rolleyes:

These ads simply show Microsoft's ineptness in advertising. They should focus on things that Apple currently cannot match: blu-ray, gaming, and netbooks. Arguing about other things only make the ad sillier that it should. This ad can be easily countered by Apple by comparing Movie Maker and iMovie09 (or the availability of Final Cut Pro, and showing real studios and pros that use FCP), and picking a PC to "cut" video suddenly looks very silly.

Oh, and what's with HP? Is this a Microsoft ad, or an ad for HP? 3 out of 4 picked HP laptop. Dell and other OEMs should be mad at MS.
 

chrono1081

macrumors G3
Jan 26, 2008
8,728
5,210
Isla Nublar
Woa! I missed the thread about Norton.

First off, Norton doesnt find a freaking thing, or if it finds it, it does nothing with it. Its funny how at work we have symantec corporate edition but have to use Nod or Kaspersky to remove viruses from "clean" drives that symantec protects. Norton (made by the same company) is just as bad.

A lot of people say "I have Norton and I've never had a virus" um..thats what you think. Scan your machine with something else once.

But aside from my completely justified Norton/Symantec dislike it is a pain to uninstall. The only real way to uninstall is manually removing folders, registry keys etc but symnrt, available on symantecs website to uninstall their own AV does a pretty good job.

Wait whats that? You have to download something from the manufacturers website to UNINSTALL their own program? Ya...sad....
 
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