Only 7 years of support from release date is unacceptable for a $2000+ personal computer.

[ToothBlueth]

I wish silicon Macs would be friendlier to alternative OSes (I am aware of Asahi, but I believe it it’s not an easy process, and the m4 chip might not get support). That would give them a chance for longer support. I am also a bit afraid Apple is moving them to something similar to iPhones, and only macOS will be able to run on them.

 

[weckart]

Accused of being, to be fair

Is by definition, to be fair. Like I said, if you want to go down that route, you will be here forever and there will be zero consensus, legally, economically or even linguistically. It's nitpicking but whatever.

 

[Hellokittystampmyfacein]

I’ll bite…

How long should Apple support their hardware?

20 years minimum

 

[Macintosh IIcx]

Mac Pro 2013 running Monterey got their latest security patch in July 2024, that’s 11 years… and we are talking about Os 12! We are almost at os 16, so an old version old os is still usable today fairly safely with that computer 12 years
Later.

This exactly, 11 years. So it is wrong to claim that Apple refuses to offer support beyond 7 years, it is situational.

 

[sleeptodream]

Apple makes luxury tech products. They have no incentive to and should not be compelled to support a 15 year old computer someone bought for $50 on ebay. Those are not even Apple’s customers.

15 year old Macs run fine, if you keep them off the internet. They’ll run software from their era perfectly. It’s the internet that’s the problem. (Well, the real problem is bad people, and the internet connects you to those people . Insert “this is why we can’t have nice things” meme)

 

[throAU]

I wish silicon Macs would be friendlier to alternative OSes (I am aware of Asahi, but I believe it it’s not an easy process, and the m4 chip might not get support). That would give them a chance for longer support. I am also a bit afraid Apple is moving them to something similar to iPhones, and only macOS will be able to run on them.

The problem is this:

You can

1. have proper hardware level security from boot loader level malware
2. or you can have easily usable third party boot loaders.

You can't have both.


Apple chose #1

 

[ToothBlueth]

The problem is this:

You can

1. have proper hardware level security from boot loader level malware
2. or you can have easily usable third party boot loaders.

You can't have both.


Apple chose #1

The question is do we need the extreme security level on hardware Apple provides over no flexibility, or is the 'security' Apple provides accessive? I don't think it is an 'either or', rather a spectrum. I agree some hardware security makes complete sense, but then again, Apple also does it just for the sake of it, like hardware locking cameras etc.

If my laptop is stolen, I want my information to be safe, the chances of me getting it back are small anyway, why make it total ewaste? That is the only way I see the accessive security being 'useful'. At the same time, it makes perfectly good hardware insecure (on a software level) in the long run.

 

[Macintosh IIcx]

I bought my 2019 iMac towards the end of 2022. It might be obsolete and no longer supported by Apple only 2 years from now. It’s bordering on fraud, in my opinion.

Hold on here, even if the current macOS 15 is the last to support the iMac 2019, there will probably be security updates for three more years. So updates from 2019 to 2028, nine years. And it is not like it will stop working after that, worse case you will just have to unplug it from the internet or at least use another device for sensitive interactions on the internet.

 

[brilliantthings]

How is 10 years not also planned obsolescence?

Ah… you’re getting it now 😜

 

[ToothBlueth]

How is 10 years not also planned obsolescence?

Honestly, I'm fine with seven years after discontinuation, as long as that is stated at the time of purchase. The expected lifespan of a desktop or laptop computer is 3-5 years, and 7 allows a bit of a stretch for those with limited needs or maybe the second owner of a device (if the hardware itself lasts that long, which is less likely now with soldered RAM and SSDs). It's not like the machine blows up in a puff of smoke at the 7-year mark. You can certainly use an unsupported OS or install a different OS. It may not be "safe" or "approved" for business use, but it would still be a perfectly good machine for a child to use to learn programming.

Besides, most people don't really want to use decade-old computers, anyway. Technology progresses more slowly than it used to, but a computer from 2015 isn't really usable by the average person for typical tasks. Sure, a nerd/geek/hacker type can find a use for it, but those types also know the risks of running old, unsupported hardware and software and know how to mitigate them.

An older person I am helping out has a laptop from 2008. He used to run Windows on it, but it got all slow and annoying with virusscanner pop-ups etc. I put Ubuntu on it, and it sped up to acceptable levels (it is still a relatively cheap laptop from 2008), but he only uses it for some simple Libreoffice calc and doc files and checking some sites once in a while. It is just a waste of money and resources for him to buy a new one.

 

[nathansz]

Is by definition, to be fair. Like I said, if you want to go down that route, you will be here forever and there will be zero consensus, legally, economically or even linguistically. It's nitpicking but whatever.

By who’s definition?

 

[smirking]

but he only uses it for some simple Libreoffice calc and doc files and checking some sites once in a while. It is just a waste of money for him to buy a new one, even though he says he will once in awhile haha.

I help lots of people who are always anywhere from a few years to over a decade behind. Like your friend, trying to get these people to change anything is impossible. They'll always insist they're fine with what they have and they're mostly right because their computers don't play any kind of prominent role in their daily lives.

This may sound like a pitch that ancient devices need to be supported indefinitely, but it's not. The flipside is if you turn your computer on once a month and rarely run proper security updates, it doesn't matter if your device is officially supported or not.

Ironically this kind of user might be better off with as few updates as possible... like maybe just their browser. If you rarely run any updates, your computer will lock up every time you open it and then you won't run any updates at all.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

I think if Apple were to do bi-annual releases, lots of old hardwares will be supported longer.

Apple used to do biannual releases and, this was not the case.
They just dropped more devices at once.
Leopard (2007): supported most Macs from 2001 and later.
Snow Leopard (2009): required a Mac from 2006 or later.

 

[iHorseHead]

So the price should dictate support length? What products follow this guideline? I’m not aware of any product that when you buy a more expensive version you get longer support. if I buy a $6000 Alienware gaming PC will I get a longer a warranty vs Dell’s basic laptop? How about a $2000 Samsung fold versus their $99 Samsung phone?

Also, what hardware companies offer support for more than seven years? Maybe 10 or even 15 years needs to be the standard, but is anyone else doing this?

You do get longer support on Samsung Fold. $99 Samsung phone doesn't get any updates. Just security updates.

 

[WilliApple]

I think 10 years minimum, for basic security updates.

They do this. 7 years of updates, 2 additional years of security updates...

 

[SilverSpooned]

That is the definition of wasteful. Creating waste.

I don't see how selling a computer is creating waste.

 

[stocklen]

I think 10 years minimum, for basic security updates. Restrict features all you want. Restrict new OS versions too. But the machine should be usable for a minimum of 10 years from first day of release.

Some machines purchased direct from Apple refurbished store might only get 3-4 years of use, and then become paper weights.

I bought my 2019 iMac towards the end of 2022. It might be obsolete and no longer supported by Apple only 2 years from now. It’s bordering on fraud, in my opinion.

How exactly does it become a paperweight after 7 years??

I have a Mac thats nearly 20 years old and still going. Sure it doesnt have the latest OS but I really don't reasonably expect a 20 year old machine to be able to run the current OS anyway.

You realise, I assume, that computers don't have 'use by' dates like food, and once that date comes you throw it in the bin.

 

[throAU]

The question is do we need the extreme security level on hardware Apple provides over no flexibility, or is the 'security' Apple provides accessive? I don't think it is an 'either or', rather a spectrum. I agree some hardware security makes complete sense, but then again, Apple also does it just for the sake of it, like hardware locking cameras etc.

If my laptop is stolen, I want my information to be safe, the chances of me getting it back are small anyway, why make it total ewaste? That is the only way I see the accessive security being 'useful'. At the same time, it makes perfectly good hardware insecure (on a software level) in the long run.

If you want more open hardware, it exists: go build a PC.

I run both, the PC is for gaming and crap i don't care about, the mac is for anything i care about.

Making machines e-waste if they are stolen reduces the rate at which they get stolen.

Blocking access to the boot loader prevents boot loader malware; this sort of thing has been possible for like 15-20 years:

https://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2006/06/introducing-blue-pill.html

Short version:
insecure boot loader = malware can basically turn your entire OS into a VM, be invisible to inside the VM (i.e. your OS) malware scanning, and do whatever the hell it wants. this is why protecting the boot loader is important! This was demonstrated nearly 20 years ago.

If malicious software can get control of the boot loader, all bets are off - nothing inside the OS can be trusted. And if you open the boot loader entirely to any software, you open it to malicous software.

This shouldn't be considered "extreme security". If you do any financial transactions on your device, this is the sort of security you really should be aiming for, especially given it is commercially available in an easy to use end user focused product.

 

[Just_Kevin]

My bigger complaint, is I think end of support should be based on when the product is no longer sold new, not based on initial release. That’s how it’s done in my industry.

 

[nathansz]

My bigger complaint, is I think end of support should be based on when the product is no longer sold new, not based on initial release. That’s how it’s done in my industry.

In this case it's not really based on either since there is no publicly official policy.

Having said that, OP bought a computer that was already discontinued.

 

[BaldiMac]

My bigger complaint, is I think end of support should be based on when the product is no longer sold new, not based on initial release. That’s how it’s done in my industry.

That's how it already is. A product becomes vintage 5 years after it is discontinued.

 

[ToothBlueth]

If you want more open hardware, it exists: go build a PC.

🤷 this is such a toxic reaction. Kills any discussion.

Making machines e-waste if they are stolen reduces the rate at which they get stolen.

It might reduce theft, I’d like to see more proof of that though. In the end, if someone is willing to steal a laptop, they are also willing to sell it bricked.

Short version:
insecure boot loader = malware can basically turn your entire OS into a VM, be invisible to inside the VM (i.e. your OS) malware scanning, and do whatever the hell it wants. this is why protecting the boot loader is important! This was demonstrated nearly 20 years ago.

20 years ago it wasn’t an issue to install linux and windows either.

 

[Just_Kevin]

That's how it already is. A product becomes vintage 5 years after it is discontinued.

Previous posters said it went by release date, that was what my comment was based on.

 

[MacCheetah3]

So if your complaint is about a discontinued computer that you bought from a third party for “nowhere close to” $2000 then perhaps you should retitle your thread?

Additionally, as already pointed out, “only 7 years of support from release date” is false. Assuming this year is the end of “feature” support, that is, said iMac is not compatible with macOS 16 or newer versions, the last (officially) supported OS (i.e., macOS 15 Sequoia) will likely receive security updates for at least two more years. For example, users of macOS 13 Ventura had a security update this month, which is 2.5 years of security patches. In other words, it’s actually 9-10 years of critical software support — mostly. Or from another perspective, ~7 years of support since the OP purchased the Mac at what could be described as a substantial discount, or as they said “nowhere close to [the MSRP].” Quite frankly, I’m not seeing how that seems unfair.

My bigger complaint, is I think end of support should be based on when the product is no longer sold new, not based on initial release. That’s how it’s done in my industry.

That's how it already is. A product becomes vintage 5 years after it is discontinued.

Previous posters said it went by release date, that was what my comment was based on.

Officially:

[...] when Apple stopped distributing them for sale [...]

Obtaining service for your Apple product after an expired warranty - Apple Support

Learn about your options for getting service and parts for Apple devices that are past their warranty period.

support.apple.com

 

[Thehangmn]

I think 10 years minimum, for basic security updates. Restrict features all you want. Restrict new OS versions too. But the machine should be usable for a minimum of 10 years from first day of release.

Some machines purchased direct from Apple refurbished store might only get 3-4 years of use, and then become paper weights.

I bought my 2019 iMac towards the end of 2022. It might be obsolete and no longer supported by Apple only 2 years from now. It’s bordering on fraud, in my opinion.

I am writing this on a mid 2015 MacBook pro that I bought in 2015 that is still usable. so I can say that is definitely possible.
I would challenge your position that they should support the product from the time that any customer buys it. I feel like they should support it starting from the date they release it. if you buy a 3 year old designed iMac, that's kinda on you. Everyone in 2022 knew that apple was moving away from intel. So if you bought an intel iMac, you already knew that the processors were being phased out. Apple officially supporting a 2019 design until 2026-2027 seems pretty good to me.
If you bought an hp it wouldn’t even work for that long. Note also that you can install Ubuntu on your Mac to extend its functional life. When I replace my MBP I will install Ubuntu on my old mbp.