MP All Models PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI

[willrice]

I'm having trouble getting 3 new 4TB WD SN850X blades to work in my Mac Pro 4,1 -> 5,1 and would really appreciate some advice...

Setup:

• Mac Pro 4,1 -> 5,1 (boot ROM 144.0.0.0.0, SMC 1.39f5)
• CPUs: 2 x X5690 = 12 core 3.46GHz
• RAM: 6 x 16GB 1333GHz ECC = 96GB
• GPU: Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 580 8G GDDR5 (PCIe slot 2)
• NVMe host: Sonnet Fusion 4x4 M.2 silent (PCIe slot 1)
• macOS M.2 blade (Sonnet Fusion slot 1): Samsung 970 EVO Plus 500GB (rev. 2B2QEXM7) - OS drive (macOS 10.14.6, 18G9323) - been running flawlessly for years
• new M.2 blades (Sonnet Fusion slots 2-4): 3 x WD SN850X 4TB (3 x WDS400T2X0E-00BCA0 - 1 x DOM=11NOV22 SN= 22451... + 2 x DOM=18NOV22 SN=22461... all three are running latest available f/w 624311WD)

Behaviour:

• 1st boot after installing, mac booted fine off the 970 EVO Plus, 1 of 3 SN850Xs were detected by the system. Disk Utility was able to format it APFS fine... Exported a System Report... Set about debugging the missing two SN850Xs by juggling the blades into different slots, removing unused peripherals etc...
• Subsequent boots, no SN850Xs detected by the PCIe bus in System Report or visible in Disk Utility. Diagnostic LEDs D1-D4 (nearest PCB outer edge) on the Sonnet Fusion 4x4 M.2 stay un-illuminated for slots containing an SN850X, but illuminate within 1 second of POST for the 970 EVO Plus. Diagnostic LEDs D7-D10 (furthest from PCB edge) on the Sonnet Fusion 4x4 M.2 illuminate for all blades immediately on PSU power on.
• Have never been able to replicate the initial partial success, even by returning to the initial h/w configuration.
• In a Windows 10 machine (Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3) the Fusion 4x4 M.2 with all three WD SN850X blades (but no 970 EVO Plus) behaved as expected and all drives were recognised by the system. Diagnostic LEDs D1-4 and D7-10 illuminated for all three SN850X drives.

Things I've Tried:

• PRAM reset
• SMC reset
• Removing all other hardware, leaving only CPUs, RAM, GPUs, Fusion 4x4 M.2 and 1 SN850X - diag LED D1-4 remains un-illuminated after POST. I was not able to boot beyond POST without my macOS drive installed, and didn't try attaching USB boot media - I simply assumed that as diag LED D1-4 illuminated within 1 second of power on with the 970 EVO Plus, and never illuminated after post with the SN850X, that a PCIe connection had not been negotiated between the blade & Northbridge.
• Asking Sonnet for technical documentation for the states of the diag LEDs on the Fusion 4x4 - support has been responsive - awaiting further details.
• Asking WD support if they can put me in touch with their firmware engineering team to see if they can reproduce / fix the behaviour. Customer Support unhelpful, and informed me that the firmware is not user updatable, which I'm moderately confident is false. Awaiting reply to my support ticket from WD's "Advanced Tech Support".

Conclusions & Questions:

I'd be ready to simply declare that SN850X blades are incompatible with MP 4,1 or 5,1 machines, if it hadn't been for the initial (unrepeatable) partial success. Frankly I'd think I'd dreamt it, if I hadn't exported the System Report proving that one of the three SN850Xs was recognised during that initial boot.

• Any advice / suggestions for debugging steps to try would be massively appreciated! Is there any possibility of increased compatibility by running a later OS, or boot-loader?
• My experience may be useful for updating the original wiki post w/r/t WD SN850X compatibility.
• I'm trying to optimise for high throughput of random reads (at low to mid QDs), and large TBW in my drive selection, so any suggestions for alternate, known compatible 4TB options would also be really appreciated.
• Are there any PCIe gen 4.0 blades known to work reliably in the MP 4,1 / 5,1 or MUST we in fact select PCIe gen 3.0 blades?

 

[tsialex]

I'm having trouble getting 3 new 4TB WD SN850X blades to work in my Mac Pro 4,1 -> 5,1 and would really appreciate some advice...

Setup:

• Mac Pro 4,1 -> 5,1 (boot ROM 144.0.0.0.0, SMC 1.39f5)
• CPUs: 2 x X5690 = 12 core 3.46GHz
• RAM: 6 x 16GB 1333GHz ECC = 96GB
• GPU: Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 580 8G GDDR5 (PCIe slot 2)
• NVMe host: Sonnet Fusion 4x4 M.2 silent (PCIe slot 1)
• macOS M.2 blade (Sonnet Fusion slot 1): Samsung 970 EVO Plus 500GB (rev. 2B2QEXM7) - OS drive (macOS 10.14.6, 18G9323) - been running flawlessly for years
• new M.2 blades (Sonnet Fusion slots 2-4): 3 x WD SN850X 4TB (3 x WDS400T2X0E-00BCA0 - 1 x DOM=11NOV22 SN= 22451... + 2 x DOM=18NOV22 SN=22461... all three are running latest available f/w 624311WD)

Behaviour:

• 1st boot after installing, mac booted fine off the 970 EVO Plus, 1 of 3 SN850Xs were detected by the system. Disk Utility was able to format it APFS fine... Exported a System Report... Set about debugging the missing two SN850Xs by juggling the blades into different slots, removing unused peripherals etc...
• Subsequent boots, no SN850Xs detected by the PCIe bus in System Report or visible in Disk Utility. Diagnostic LEDs D1-D4 (nearest PCB outer edge) on the Sonnet Fusion 4x4 M.2 stay un-illuminated for slots containing an SN850X, but illuminate within 1 second of POST for the 970 EVO Plus. Diagnostic LEDs D7-D10 (furthest from PCB edge) on the Sonnet Fusion 4x4 M.2 illuminate for all blades immediately on PSU power on.
• Have never been able to replicate the initial partial success, even by returning to the initial h/w configuration.
• In a Windows 10 machine (Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3) the Fusion 4x4 M.2 with all three WD SN850X blades (but no 970 EVO Plus) behaved as expected and all drives were recognised by the system. Diagnostic LEDs D1-4 and D7-10 illuminated for all three SN850X drives.

Things I've Tried:

• PRAM reset
• SMC reset
• Removing all other hardware, leaving only CPUs, RAM, GPUs, Fusion 4x4 M.2 and 1 SN850X - diag LED D1-4 remains un-illuminated after POST. I was not able to boot beyond POST without my macOS drive installed, and didn't try attaching USB boot media - I simply assumed that as diag LED D1-4 illuminated within 1 second of power on with the 970 EVO Plus, and never illuminated after post with the SN850X, that a PCIe connection had not been negotiated between the blade & Northbridge.
• Asked Sonnet for technical documentation for the states of the diag LEDs on the Fusion 4x4 - still awaiting a reply

Conclusions & Questions:

I'd be ready to simply declare that SN850X blades are incompatible with MP 4,1 or 5,1 machines, if it hadn't been for the initial (unrepeatable) partial success. Frankly I'd think I'd dreamt it, if I hadn't exported the System Report proving that one of the three SN850Xs was recognised during that initial boot.

• Any advice / suggestions for debugging steps to try would be massively appreciated! Is there any possibility of increased compatibility by running a later OS, or boot-loader?
• My experience may be useful for updating the original wiki post w/r/t WD SN850X compatibility.
• I'm trying to optimise for high throughput of random reads (at low to mid QDs), and large TBW in my drive selection, so any suggestions for alternate, known compatible 4TB options would also be really appreciated.
• Are there any PCIe gen 4.0 blades known to work reliably in the MP 4,1 / 5,1 or MUST we in fact select PCIe gen 3.0 blades?

WD track record of Mac compatibility is extremely poor, most of the blades are not compatible even with 2019 Mac Pro.

From memory I remember one or two reports of SN850 not working or having problems with 2019 Mac Pro. Changing OS version doesn't change anything, but you can try this suggestion here before giving up.

 

[MisterAndrew]

Has anyone tried the SK hynix Platinum P41 SSD in the Mac Pro? Post #8 in this thread on the tonymacx86 forum shows that it works with macOS. Of course there probably isn't any performance benefit compared to the Gold P31 on a Mac.

SK Hynix Platium P41 NVMe SSD

It came out this week and does anyone know if this new NVMe card works with macOS?

www.tonymacx86.com

 

[Wayne Keyz]

Samsung 980 series is very problematic with MacPro4,1/5,1/6,1, not all blade models work and it's a very picky blade usually working just with PCIe switched adapters. Maybe it's better to exchange it for a Samsung 970 EVO Plus.

Said that, I've got a Samsung 980 512MB (non PRO model) working with a HighPoint SSD7101A-1. Which model exactly do you have?

Btw, all versions of early-2009 backplanes work with PCIe switched cards once the firmware is correctly updated. If you still have problems with a known working blade, like Samsung 970 EVO Plus - see the first post of this thread for more options - then you can have BootROM problems.

Hello tsi Alex

Thank you for your input I have to Samsung 1 TB 980 non Pro Models ?

 

[Wayne Keyz]

Hello tsi Alex

Thank you for your input I have to Samsung 1 TB 980 non Pro Models ?

Hello Alex

Which post are you referring to regarding possible BootRom problems ?

 

[tsialex]

Hello tsi Alex

Thank you for your input I have to Samsung 1 TB 980 non Pro Models ?

Buy a PCIe switched adapter or replace the Samsung 980 blade for a compatible model listed on the first post.

Hello Alex

Which post are you referring to regarding possible BootRom problems ?

There are several possibilities, like previously modified BootROMs with manually added NVMe module, failing NVRAM volumes and etc.

 

[Wayne Keyz]

Hello Alex

Do I not have the right PCie switched adapter ? These are the cards that are suggested from Definitive MP Upgrades ? Number 1 for a 4 slot card Sonnet M.2 4X4 Silent card and Number 2 the OWC Accelsior M.2 4X4 and I also first tried the Startech PEX8M2E2 with no results ? What happens with all the cards listed will boot with no NVME drives installed and boots up like normal works but when I go to system report it does not show a card installed in the slot 2 ? When I install the Sabrent Rocket 1TB NVme and thank you for your input on the Samsung 980 by the way, the Apple chime sounds and I believe may even be booted not sure though but total black screen ? My tech believes that it could be my video card which is a Nvidia Geforce GTX 670 2GB and is sending me a Nvidia Quadro K 5000 or 6000 not sure which exact one. I spoke to OWC tech support before buying the Samsung 980 non pro and they said it was supported however there is nothing verifying that in Definitive MP Upgrades. That is why I have the Sabrent Rocket as they recommend these NVME drives I also have the WD 1TB Green but I have no info if they will work or not ? Do you have any Suggestions on this matter ? Please advise

 

[VaZ]

Anybody know if OpenCore has the ability to boot into a raided dual or quad blade setup for maximum speed?

 

[hwojtek]

This should work, however the real-life differences for a boot drive between nvme RAID and non-raid are much smaller then you'd expect by looking into synthetic benchmarks or theoretical maximum throughput. A raid0 (zero as in: zero fault tolerance; one breaks, everything breaks) will shine in NLVE scenarios as the data/scratch drive, but make sure you have a backup.

 

[tsialex]

This should work, however the real-life differences for a boot drive between nvme RAID and non-raid are much smaller then you'd expect by looking into synthetic benchmarks or theoretical maximum throughput. A raid0 (zero as in: zero fault tolerance; one breaks, everything breaks) will shine in NLVE scenarios as the data/scratch drive, but make sure you have a backup.

What exactly should work? Apple never supported RAID with APFS, you can't boot a RAID array after 10.13.6.

 

[hwojtek]

What exactly should work? Apple never supported RAID with APFS, you can't boot a RAID array after 10.13.6.

Well, no. https://lesniakrafal.com/install-mac-os-catalina-raid-0/

 

[RS12580]

Has anyone had any success with the Crucial P3 in a MP 6,1?

 

[tsialex]

Well, no. https://lesniakrafal.com/install-mac-os-catalina-raid-0/

This is a very ugly hack that Software Updates are not supported.

 

[hwojtek]

It proves Mac OS >10.13.6 does indeed boot from RAID0 and it does that with legit filesystem tools straight from Apple only. I see no reasons it shouldn't work the same way on a computer booted with Open Core and starting Monterey from a RAID0.
Software updates on patched Catalina were a nightmare, so everyone went reinstall updated OS anyway.

The 5,1 is now an "ugly hack" by itself, and yet it still works.

 

[tsialex]

It proves Mac OS >10.13.6 does indeed boot from RAID0 and it does that with legit filesystem tools straight from Apple only. I see no reasons it shouldn't work the same way on a computer booted with Open Core and starting Monterey from a RAID0.
Software updates on patched Catalina were a nightmare, so everyone went reinstall updated OS anyway.

The 5,1 is now an "ugly hack" by itself, and yet it still works.

@hwojtek did you ever tried? If so, since you are a reasonable person you wouldn't recommend it.

There is a long distance between something that is theoretically possible to something that is even remotely workable/maintainable.

 

[hwojtek]

I did exactly that once, just to test it and while you are right, I wouldn't recommend that, it's technically possible with some creative use of what the software offers.

 

[mrkapqa]

Thank you. I should have mentioned that length/height is not an issue.
I can move the PCI fan as I already did the Noctua fan mod and have a custom fan plug with a long cord.
I also only have 1 additional PCIe slot occupied.

Thank you for the tip! This is not available in Switzerland, so I keep looking.

@debonis you should be able to order such a model if in need.
lycom dt-130 as seen on mayor e-commerce site

 

[hwojtek]

Yes, in fact it is the same card as the Ableconn.

 

[Jabroosky]

I wanted to install windows 10 legacy on a nvme. I read online that the Samsung 950 pro has a built in boot rom for legacy. I just wanted to ask think this will allow me to install legacy without additional drivers

 

[tsialex]

I wanted to install windows 10 legacy on a nvme. I read online that the Samsung 950 pro has a built in boot rom for legacy. I just wanted to ask think this will allow me to install legacy without additional drivers

Samsung 950 PRO is not compatible with Macs, see this stickie thread first post. There is no NVMe blade that will work with legacy/BIOS/BootCamp Windows and a Mac Pro.

The only type of PCIe blades that will work with legacy/BIOS/BootCamp Windows when installed in a Mac Pro, are the AHCI ones - like Samsung 951-AHCI, Samsung XP-941, Kingston HyperX Predator or the several AppleOEM AHCI blades (all AppleOEM blades need a 12+16 adapter). See this post below for all blades, not all are Mac Pro compatible so you are limited to the tested ones:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/fast-faster-fastest-musings-about-the-small-world-of-ahci-pcie-blades-bootable-speedy-ssds-for-some-early-intel-macs.2371501/

 

[joevt]

The only type of PCIe blades that will work with legacy/BIOS/BootCamp Windows when installed in a Mac Pro, are the AHCI ones - like Samsung 951-AHCI, Samsung XP-941, Kingston HyperX Predator or the several AppleOEM AHCI blades (all AppleOEM blades need a 12+16 adapter). See this post below for all blades, not all are Mac Pro compatible so you are limited to the tested ones:

As far as I know, legacy can only boot from built in SATA drives.
BIOS uses int13h to access drives.
Mac EFI only sets up a few drives for int13h access. 80h for 1st drive, 81h for 2nd drive, 82h for 3rd drive, 83h for 4th drive, etc. I'm not sure which are accessible (also need to include DVD).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INT_13H
Maybe there's a BIOS boot loader that lets you examine what drives are available. Maybe NeoGrub? It's a legacy BIOS boot loader originally based on Grub4Dos
https://neosmart.net/wiki/easybcd/neogrub/
Maybe there's a way to add additional drives to the BIOS boot loader but it may require some complicated EFI code that modifies the INT 13h support that is setup by the BootCamp EFI app.

 

[balfa]

Hi. Could somebody give advice what the best 2 TB ssd i can buy for Macbook pro 2013 late a1398 with Macos Big Sur and windows with parallels?

 

[h9826790]

Hi. Could somebody give advice what the best 2 TB ssd i can buy for Macbook pro 2013 late a1398 with Macos Big Sur and windows with parallels?

You better try the Macbook Pro (laptop) forum, here is the Mac Pro (desktop) forum.

 

[cmphal]

my MacPro5,1 SSD upgrade conundrum

I'm looking for some advice on SSD upgrade for MacPro4,1->5,1 w/ 2 x 3.46 GHz 6-Core Xeon x5690, 32GB memory, SAPPHIRE Pulse Radeon RX 580 8GB graphics card, Sonnet Tempo SSD PCIe w/ 1TB Samsung 860 EVO, macOS 12.6 boot and scratch, macOS 10.13.6 on 500GB Samsung 850 EVO, and 6 disk Raid1+0 User Volume, plus two external enclosures for TimeMachine, CCC, and RAID5 working storage one eSata and one USB3. I have one empty PCIe slot, I could use slot 2 or 3.

This is being driven by some feeling of sluggishness and having to deal with HDD replacement. My 1TB boot SSD is not large enough for my User directory tree (photos and music exceed 1TB). I am thinking a 4TB SSD would allow me to abandon my somewhat troublesome internal/external User Raid1+0 volume freeing up SATA bays for 14+TB drives for TimeMachine and CCC and relegating external storage for secondary backups and non active storage.

For SATA SSD's thinking of either 4TB Samsung 870 QVO (don't like warranty) or 4tb Samsung 870 EVO. My primary reservation is that I expect I will upgrade to Apple Silicon MacPro during the next couple of years at which point current SATA SSDs would presumably feel way too slow. In looking at Post #1's NVME drives its only the Sabrent Rocket which seems to offer an affordable 4TB solution.

If I was to leave my current boot volume and just focus on a faster User volume would other lower cost 4TB NVME drives such as Crucial P3, WD, Seagate, Kingston be useable, or do they have issues beyond being used a boot volumes?

Should I just go with SATA and stop thinking that current NVME might be better suited to future hardware?

 

[tsialex]

For SATA SSD's thinking of either 4TB Samsung 870 QVO (don't like warranty) or 4tb Samsung 870 EVO.

If you use the search, you'll see lot's and lot's of people having issues with Samsung 870 Series in general, from KPs to not working after a reboot. With QVO series - not just 870 series but previous series also - no model is Mac Pro compatible (unless you connect via USB), since it's a Samsung model designed specifically for archival purposes that shouldn't be used as a main or even a data drive.