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Everythingisnt

macrumors 6502a
Jan 16, 2008
743
0
Vancouver
I agree with the points you raised about creative merit and how we can possibly judge it. In many ways art is incomparable. If the way someone sees something is negative, they should be able to share it but in perhaps more of a constructive way (Although I'm not saying that Doylem or anyone thinks poorly of your work - perhaps he didn't mean it to come across that way).


One more thing...

When I was young my hair was long and I wore a victorian frock coat, down to my ankles.

Why did you wear a victorian frock coat? I would feel a bit better if you provided a bit of justification (like wearing it to be different, or because of how dashing it looked on you) then just putting it out there and leaving me to attribute it to eccentricity or something..
 

Kashchei

macrumors 65816
Apr 26, 2002
1,152
5
Meat Space
At best your comments are analogous with(and this is just the example that first sprang to mind), comments I have often heard over the years, usually from older people or people with no interest in art, about the paintings of Jackson Pollock. That they're nothing more than someone throwing paint over a canvas etc ... And no, I am not saying that I am in any way the Jackson Pollock of abstract photography!!


Even with your caveat in mind, you are clearly equating your style of photography in some way to abstract expressionism in art. Fair enough, and I don't think anyone will disagree with you, nor will anyone dismiss outright the work of Pollock et al; we can all enjoy his use of color & texture. The argument you will get, from me at least, is that your style of photography, like the art of Pollock, the literature of Joyce or the music of Schoenberg, represents a simplification of means. This seems contradictory at first due to the effusion of detail in your photographs, Pollock's paintings etc, but allow me to explain. In each of these art forms, basic tenets of style have been overthrown. In photography and art, it is representation; in literature, it is grammar and syntax; in music, it is tonality. Each of these breakthroughs revolutionizes the art form in the short term, yet represents a step backwards in the long term. Put simply, each of the styles mentioned above--all introduced roughly 100 years ago--now have less of a following than they did initially. In fact, the pendulum in each of these art forms has swung back to embrace once again the central tenets that had been abandoned. In short, your style of photography, while diverting, does not contain the structural depth (to borrow the term Schoenberg used when writing about this general topic) to produce masterpieces equal to that of photographers in the same school as Doylem. You may be deeply drawn to this style, and there may be many who slavish praise on you and your work. This is an illusory echo chamber, since the logical conclusion drawn from each of these artistic revolutions is that the public does not matter. And we all know that this is not the case.
 

marclapierre13

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
869
0
Whoa, lol. I came into my daily check of this thread and had a crap load of reading to do!
Carl, you're so well spoken and enjoyable to read lol. I am glad, out of anyone on MR that got pissed, it was you, instead of some immature jerk who would have just cussed and whimpered. I think it's great how much passion you take in your photos, and I can understand you being defensive, especially with something you put a lot of work into. I agree your photos are different, and that's what I like about them. It's kind of nice seeing some abstract work pop up every now and again. Also, I know you like to write, because I remember quite a few of your comments/compliments on other photography's (Doylem included). Maybe you felt that he belittled you in some way by using a dismissive comment? I have to agree, it is nice when some one acknowledges your photo, and puts a little thought into their comments. Share the love people:)

One other thing Id like to say, is it is OK to critique other photos, but no one has the right to put another photographer down. I believe photography, like other art, is totally personal.


PS: I am also curious why you wore long hair and a victorian frock coat:confused: lol.
 

valdore

macrumors 65816
Jan 9, 2007
1,262
0
Kansas City, Missouri. USA
I open the thread, and :eek:


Anyway...

snowyhouse.jpg


One handheld RAW // HDR
Shutter: 1/100
Aperture: f/12.9
Focal Length: 17 mm
ISO 100
 

pdxflint

macrumors 68020
Aug 25, 2006
2,407
14
Oregon coast
my first impression... for what it's worth.

Before I read Carl's response to Doylem, I must say as a neutral observer here that when I read Doylem's comment (referring to the question posed to Carl about how he made his image) I caught my breath momentarily. It just seemed a tad mean-spirited, and I didn't want to believe that to be Doylem's true nature, since I admire his work, and his helpfulness on this forum. Yet, it stung me a bit for Carl, who has also been very decent in his praise of others' work here. It all left me feeling a bit discomforted.

Then I read Carl's response, and knew that inadverdently or not, some feelings had been hurt. I don't think Doylem's intent was to be hurtful, but in the world of the written word (internet) so often it's easy to send the wrong message, and it isn't always fixable with a smilie. A flippant remark said in person with all the right gestures and expressions among friends can actually represent affection, while the same thing written sounds condescending or rude. So, lesson here to all - think carefully about what you write before hitting the "enter" key...

I hope both of you guys keep posting your images here, as I have really enjoyed seeing all of it. I hope any ruffled feelings can be overcome, as this is a great community of fellow photographers (not to mention all the unheard-from visitors who take the time to check out our work.)
 

§HAMU§

macrumors member
Jun 30, 2006
51
0
raleigh, nc
camera: canon rebel xt
lens: ts-e 24mm f/3.5L
focal length: 24mm
aperture: f4
shutter: 1/125
iso: 200
filter: none
location: raleigh, nc

my little flickr friends
 

baby duck monge

macrumors 68000
Feb 16, 2003
1,570
0
Memphis, TN
<Very long post>

I would just say +1, but that's not really a valid response around here.

I agree with basically everything you posted. While I believe that Doylem posts some beautiful pictures, his attitudes towards other people's shots leaves much to be desired. He will often respond to a picture by pointing out the faults, and usually doesn't do all that much to try to couch his criticism in positive terms. And then there is the constant reminders that he does all of his editing "in camera," and anyone who doesn't is somehow inferior.

The most recent post that made me do a double-take and wonder what he was thinking was when rjgonzales posted a picture of what I am guessing was his son. Doylem's immediate response?

It's a snapshot... in that you didn't give too much thought about composition.

That was the first thing in the post. Not real nice. Then he finishes up with

Skyler: great name...

No smile or anything. Is he insulting this kid's name now? Hard to say.

Anyway, Carl took the time to say something I know I have been thinking for a while, and I applaud him for speaking his mind.
 

srf4real

macrumors 68040
Jul 25, 2006
3,001
26
paradise beach FL
get off my wave
*title is stolen from Soundgarden;)

_1080718.jpg


Sorry about that obnoxious watermark yesterday...:eek: I have repented.
btw, please critique my photos at will, as I am a slow learner and appreciate criticism good or bad.
 

Everythingisnt

macrumors 6502a
Jan 16, 2008
743
0
Vancouver
The frock coat! Just remember that I was young! Here we go.
Basically, through a long and circuitous route I suppose you could say that around the age of 16 or so ...

Ah ;). Well I'm 16 myself so I reckon I have a fair enough understanding of your explanation. Frock/trench coats do indeed look very nice by the way (I actually wore a long black trenchcoat + top hat to a school formal :p).

By the way, I've always quietly observed your photos with interest/admiration. I think some are better than others. My favorite is probably your "Flow my tears, the policeman said" picture -- it was like reading that book all over again in a more visual, photographic format :p.
 

marclapierre13

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2005
869
0
The frock coat! Just remember that I was young! Here we go.
Basically, through a long and circuitous route I suppose you could say that around the age of 16 or so I could have satisfied most of the visual requirements needed to be classified a Goth!! Long black hair, almost universally clothed in black, sombre-of-mood(!) and, most important of all, a huge fan of The Sisters of Mercy and The Damned. Guilty as charged! I don't think I was a goth as my hair was never crimped and I never wore black nail polish! That's my escape clause and I cling to it with relish!
To the point - The Damned were featured on an episode of The Young Ones and their vocalist and frontman, Dave Vanian, was wearing a simply magnificent coat, all the way down to his ankles! I loved it and knew that it was ME, and I had to have one just like it. I took a video of the show to a local tailor who instantly smiled and said "yup, victorian frock coat with frog fastener."
He made me one, my uncle paid for it, and it felt like I was born to wear it!
I did so, in little backwater Ellesmere Port. Where nobody, ever, strayed outside the norm. But that's another story. I wasn't eccentric, or trying to be. I just found 'something' that was, to me, meaningful.
By the way, there is a lot of brilliant fashion from that period!

Marclapierre13
PS: I am also curious why you wore long hair and a victorian frock coat:confused: lol.
Thanks for your thoughtful words. Frock coat explanation above!

Lol, when you said that, thats exactly what I imagined when you were talking about victorian frock coats ... a "goth" in a trench coat :p
 

Doylem

macrumors 68040
Dec 30, 2006
3,858
3,642
Wherever I hang my hat...
Wow... I pen a 25-word response... and I've started World War III...

It's the middle of the night. I shouldn't even be up and about right now, but it's hard to sleep. I live in a wooden shack in the woods, and it's blowing a gale outside. The wind is reverberating round the valley like an Old Testament prophet. One day a tree is going to fall and reduce the shack to matchwood - maybe with me in it - and, hell, maybe tonight's the night. I was going to put a smiley face there... but it seems like they're getting me into as much trouble as the words I write.

First up, I want to apologise unreservedly to Carl. It was not my intention to belittle his pictures, or his 'philosophy' of photography, or his way of working. In fact, it's not my intention to belittle the work of anyone on the forum. If I see a picture I really like, I say so. If I see a pic I like, but there's something that hits a 'wrong note' with me, I may mention that too. I know what it's like to take pictures that are 'nearly good'. After a certain amount of time and experience, the quality of our photos rises in just small increments. That is: we learn a lot when we start out, 'cos we know nothing about photography. So, with each passing year, we have to 'refine' our vision if we are to make any improvements.

Years ago I took my little 'portfolio' of 5x7" prints to the only professional photographer I'd heard of: a guy called Martin Parr (now with the Magnum agency), who was just starting to make a name for himself. He was good enough to take a look. My pix, he said, were "snapshots".

I was a bit shocked. My friends and family thought my pix were great, and here was a guy telling me they were snapshots. He said a few other things too, no doubt vaguely complimentary, but "snapshots" is all I remember. And, you know what... he was right. They were snapshots.

I decided I maybe wasn't quite as good as I thought I was, and that I'd better learn the basics of photography. I looked at the work of good photographers - people like Franco Fontana, Brett Weston, Bill Brandt, etc, and, if I didn't exactly copy them, I wanted to tap into their way of seeing. And I've been trying to see more clearly ever since.

Someone's just said my opinions on other peoples' photos are "helpful"; someone else posted that they are "hurtful". Sorry, I don't want to check who said what; hey, it's the middle of the night! Well, I haven't written a single post on this forum that I consider to be hurtful, but, hell, hurtfulness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

I earn most of my income from writing comedy, so I'm accustomed to a 'robust' kind of humour, which maybe plays better in conversation than in an internet forum. My flippant remark about Carl's pix was just that, and was never intended to be "hurtful", or "condescending" or "mean-spirited" (there were other adjectives too, but it's still the middle of the night. I could be flattened by a tree at any moment).

"Waving the camera about"... Hmmm, this is the kind of way I talk about my own photography. People say to me "Hey, that was lucky. The sun peeped out from behind that cloud, just at the right moment", not realising that I'd waited a couple of hours, with my camera on a tripod, to see if the light would get 'interesting'. I also shoot abstract pix of ripples and reflections, which is basically just "pointing my camera at water".

Anyway I call my pix 'snaps', say "I got lucky", etc, because I hope my passion comes out in the pictures. I can joke about my photography precisely because it means so much to me.

But Carl, yes I DO stand on a hill and take a picture of another hill. It IS as simple as that. When I'm in the mood, the camera simply disappears, and I'm 'in' the landscape. And the only reason I mention getting things right 'in the camera' is because this is, IMO, the best way to get an original RAW file that can then (according to each photographer's taste) be tweaked slightly... or given a thorough workover in Photoshop. The moment I realised that, was the moment I started taking better pix. I believe this 100%.

Anyway, I've rattled on a bit. The storm seems to be subsiding. My shack may yet survive the night.

I feel as if I've opened up the proverbial can of worms, though it was not my intention to be dismissive about other photographers' work. I'd like to think my comments are positive and relevant (hey, the pix I really don't like, I don't mention at all), but I can see, from some of the recent posts, that I may have 'ruffled a few feathers'.

Apparently I've even mocked a kid's name: Skyler. Well, no, it's a great name (I called my own kids Chas & Casey; never had a girl, fortunately, 'cos I had a name ready. Corinna Corinna, after the folk song. But, like Carl, I digress...).

I've tended to assume that pix are posted here for people to comment on. As I've explained, having a 'non-partisan' critique is more constructive that getting undiluted praise from your doting family. But I certainly don't want to upset anyone, so I think I may keep my opinions to myself in future.

I may post an old picture of me in my frock coat. They were quite the fashion when me and Carl were kids. :)

There, one little smiley, and back to bed...
 

hogger73

macrumors newbie
Jan 29, 2008
3
0
madison square park, ny

another pic i took this weekend. used a bit of aperture to clean it up, but thought it came out ok. tx.

2227061511_6d0222a05b_b.jpg
 

Everythingisnt

macrumors 6502a
Jan 16, 2008
743
0
Vancouver
@ Carl
I'm glad that my comment was received so positively with you, especially since I sincerely liked that picture :). I'm also overjoyed (just like you, I'm sure) to find someone else who enjoys the likes of Alfred Bester and Philip K. Dick :).

Also, I'm happy to see Doylem's post. I guess he made it clear enough that his intentions were more 'positive' or 'affectionate' then really condescending or negative. As another poster already remarked, when communicating with text as over the internet, it's important to keep in mind how it can be interpreted differently because of the rather un-emotive feel of text.


Anyway, here's a quick 'snapshot' ;) before I head off for bed...


 
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